RE: Do we really need men?

RE: Do we really need men? (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:27:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama You seem to be under the impression that this conversation is taking place on the Gorean forum, and that I have deliberately taken myself into a domain of people whose views and fantasies offend me in order to...be offended! [:D] Actually, you have insulted a group of people in violation of the TOS, which amounts to the same thing. quote: Funny, but last I noticed, this was the Mistress forum, and the theme was female dominance and male masochism and submission. (And for the record, I personally receive emails every week from men asking and begging to receive treatment far worse than anything mentioned in the OP. There is a reason that it does strike me the way it may have struck you!) I've never said it wasn't. I just said that it's still a sentiment that is rather abhorrent, and that I think it's rather odd to posit a semtiment that is essentially the same one as one is complaining about. And that's before we even consider things like the ethic of reciprocity (i.e. the golden rule). As for what offers you get, no wonder. I've gotten offers from males myself, though I'm certainly not in your league in that regard. There are a lot of male subs on here, and your picture does display a whole lot of things that they are likely to find attractive. (Which is a tactful paraphrase of what my girl commented, so nothing to do with patriarchy there.) What they're looking to consent to is rather irrelevant in the context of what was suggested non-consensually. quote: Well, given your behavior, I must admit--I find this very odd. Perhaps, as others have suggested, it may be time to broaden your search for the cause of this discrepancy. quote: Because so far as I can see, you have deliberately ridden into this situation to "come to the rescue" of a man who 1) chose his own opponent of his own free will, 2) set the rules of engagement and the tone of the exchange by his own choice and thus 3) should have been prepared to fight the battle he chose on his own two feet without your interference, regardless of whether his opponent was male or female. I started by replying to the OP. She's no man, as far as I know. Beyond that, I've simply replied to what has come along. And I've not defended anyone, merely pointed out your hypocrisy in saying it's okay for you to insult the appearance of a male poster, while it's not okay for me to complement you on yours. Topping it off with your complaint about double standards, that sort of nails it. quote: Regardless of whether you cared for my response to him, the boy was lashing out blindly at every women present. Actually, he was pretty specific about qualifying his statement as pertaining to those who supported the OP's thoughts. quote: He responded to one of us with "100% cognitive failure" simply because she asked him what he meant; he called all the female posters to this thread, and targeted me in particular with the word "swine". "Because" ? Have you become a mind reader? And if you're going to grace the OP with the goodwill to interpret her post as saying something other than the words in it, you might pause to consider that the word "swine" in this context was a direct reference to the adage about throwing pearls before swine. It's simply a way to state that our arguments are falling on deaf ears, and thus wasted on the *proverbial* swine, i.e. those who care not at all for the sensible arguments they are presented with, but rather proceed to trample on with no appreciation for their value. quote: After you slap someone with a gauntlet, you had best be prepared to face steel. You're the one who has consistently refused to address the majority of my points. As far as I've gone is to drop a tiny bit of content because you explicitly stated it would be wasted. quote: He was insulted after he had been insulting, not before. Right, so if a man had an abusive mother, it's right for him to start raping women? There's this thing people are usually taught somewhere around kindergarden: two wrongs don't make a right. quote: You can either choose to pursue your "gripe" with me or not. I have. And you have quite consistently avoided responding to the arguments in my posts. quote: I don't see that you have one, really; it seems more like a misunderstanding. Then it's time to have another look in the mirror. Have a look at the points listed (I forgot hypocrisy, so add that). Reread your own posts. If you still can't find damning evidence that those accusations are factually sound, I will quote the relevant passages if you wish. quote: You have no more idea who I am or how I typically post than vice versa, There is a search function. Type in "Aswad" in the author field. Leave the rest blank (unless you'd care to limit it to specific subforums, such as the Ask a Mistress section, which would be most relevant to your questions about how I interact with female dominants). The result will be a list of the last 300 posts matching the criteria, and enough material for you to familiarize yourself with my posting style, as well as any weak points you might want to go for (some like to aim below the belt, but I'm open to seeing that myth dispelled). And I've not addressed your person beyond the scope of the past couple of pages worth of posting on your part. The entirety of the requisite evidence for judging that is contained in this thread. quote: and I have no insecurities for you to exploit about being inarticulate, unintelligent, or a poor representative of my gender, especially in terms of my treatment of men. I've plenty of weak spots. I make no bones about it. People have gone after those in the past. It's not a problem. Loses them a lot of respect in my eyes, and usually the eyes of a lot of other posters, but that's about it, except when someone reports it to the mods. I've not accused you of being inarticulate. Your opinions on this topic have been made very clear. I've no grounds for judging your intelligence. Only the extent to which you have applied it in this thread. I've no business with how you treat your men. As far as I'm concerned, they're yours to do with as you wish. As for being a poor representative of your gender, that would depend on the criterion applied; by mine, you have not represented your gender well in this thread. Insofar as you or others have a different opinion of how you do in that regard, that's your business. I have merely offered commentary to the effect that, insofar as I know my own gender, the attitude you have displayed here is one that is apt to cause a lot of men to respond negatively, and that it is a common trait in humans to generalize this beyond the individual that causes the response. In this case, that implies that the men that are holding back the equality movement will be likely to infer things about the entirety of your gender that are (fortunately) patently false, if they should happen to be exposed to such attitudes as you've shown here. I'm just holding up a mirror for you, while representing myself, my views, and my standards for a man. Whether you have insecurities about these things or not, really isn't any of my damn business. The absurdity of your replies to me are clearly more than sufficiently damning. And I'm still waiting for you to address my various points. You've got a pretty big backlog of them. Health, al-Aswad P.S.: Please, someone, do me the favor of reporting my post with a comment that I would like to know whether I've stepped over the line in the course of this thread; I'm a guest in this house, and it's the host's prerogative to decide whether I'm handling a dispute with a fellow guest in a manner that is acceptable or not. I do not wish to be a poor guest. (One can't report one's own posts on CollarMe.)

nephandi -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 1:58:45 AM)
Hi quote: Funny, but last I noticed, this was the Mistress forum, and the theme was female dominance and male masochism and submission. No actually it is not, it is a forum about female Dominants, not a forum about female supremacy. There are Dominants here that hold female submissives, or that while they hold a male sub, do not believe in female supremacy and do not believe dominance and submission have anything to do whit whatever or not one's anatomy includes a penis or not. quote: (And for the record, I personally receive emails every week from men asking and begging to receive treatment far worse than anything mentioned in the OP. There is a reason that it does strike me the way it may have struck you!) It is never the question on whatever or not it is ok for a female Dom to play rough whit the male sub, the theme of the tread was if all men should be treated as little more than beasts. Master also get plenty of mails form females begging him to do all sort of degrading things, do that mean all females should be treated that way? Hell treat your sub anyway you like, that however do not mean every male should be treated that way. quote: Regardless of whether you cared for my response to him, the boy was lashing out blindly at every women present. Again whit the double morales, would you like to be referred to as the girl? How is it that endearing or even diminishing terms is ok for you to use for a male, but not for them to use for a female? If my Master spoke of you in another post and said the girl said so and so, would you like it? If not then why do you use it for others. There are a saying that go that you should sweep before your own door first. So if you treat males as inferior on this forum, just for being male, then you in a way give lisence for males to treat you like an inferior for being a woman. i wish you well

nephandi -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 2:19:28 AM)
Hi quote: As for being a poor representative of your gender, that would depend on the criterion applied; by mine, you have not represented your gender well in this thread. As a member of the fairer sex, i must agree. One can go on about me being submissive, and that is true, but i in my Spiritual work is in an environment that have far, far more men than women and in witch women have had to work hard to gain recognition. This field being Ceremonial occultism. Now slowly we, as in women members of this field are gaining the same recognition as men, but we do that whit behaving as equals, not as superiors. In the past women in this field was little more than tools for men, Crowley himself kept such living Ceremonial tools as his Scarlet Women, and female occultists outside New Paganism have been frowned upon. But now, none care what sex i am, only my knowledge and skill matters. And female occultists have traveled the road from being Scarlet Women, just tools in the men's Spiritual development to being full fledged members of the occult field by proving ourself, by not seeing the men as enemies or attacking them, but by showing our skill. The weak try to win a higher place by attacking others, taking a victim attitude and screaming they hurt us. The strong say we can do it and show the men that we are equal, not by whining and attacks, but by strength and grace. So i would say that ShaktiSama have not represented women in a good way on this tread. It is treads like this that give those of us that are feminists a bad name, painting us as man hating bitches. Many now begin to go against women's rights, and women workers and women in general, becouse the image they see when somone say feminist or speak of women's rights are women like ShaktiSama that behave like if men are the enemy and demand not just equality, but superiority over the men. And that is a damned shame. i wish you well

AtlantaMistress -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 3:56:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER I would hate to think of this world without men,who would pay for all those shopping trips,give you those wonderful children to care for,Those nice homes and cars,Of courses many can provide for them selfs but the other 90% of the lazy asses would be in deep shit,ducking and covering..bounty Bounty - In this forum...with that attitude, did you really think your statement would advance your postition in this arguement...if so, you are even farther off base than we may think. Thus proving my "good egg" and "bad egg" (or apple - take your pic) theory in prior post to this thread: Bountyhunter = [sm=moon.gif] darchChylde & Aswad = [sm=applause.gif]

petdave -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 6:24:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad P.S.: Please, someone, do me the favor of reporting my post with a comment that I would like to know whether I've stepped over the line in the course of this thread; I'm a guest in this house, and it's the host's prerogative to decide whether I'm handling a dispute with a fellow guest in a manner that is acceptable or not. I do not wish to be a poor guest. (One can't report one's own posts on CollarMe.) While i can claim no title grander than "one of the usual suspects", the only sin i would ascribe to your post is [sm=horse.gif] No offense, just perspective.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 7:21:26 AM)
Hehe... Not sure what you were referring to (several options stuck out with regard to beating dead horses, some of them funny), but my point was that this thread has, on the whole, crossed a line several times. I've crossed it myself. So has Shakti, but I'm not asking anyone to point fingers at her, since I'm not uncomfortable with it myself. But it's not my forum. I don't draw the line, or decide what happens if I step over it, or when I have. I tried to stick to the point and to be more polite than I might have been in private with Shakti, but there's really no denying that we've moved past how I usually respond, and if the mods don't like that, I intend to respect that decision. If it is fair enough to keep it at its present level, then I'm fine with that, too. And, yes, the debate itself is little more than beating a dead horse unless she responds to the points raised. But that part is rather far beyond my control; she can respond, or not. Health, al-Aswad.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 2:11:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Actually, you have insulted a group of people in violation of the TOS, which amounts to the same thing. This is absolute and utter nonsense, and everyone present should know it. Yourself included. I am never obligated to say that I like or approve of someone else's fantasies or relationships; my only obligation, moral OR legal, is to leave others alone to discuss and pursue their pleasures as they see fit. This is what I do with Goreans of both sexes, by avoiding their forum. And it what I always try to do with other male dominant/female submissive arrangements. The fact that I find male dominance abhorrent is NOT something I choose to inflict on people who feel differently. Male dominants and female submissives are happy with their lives, relationships and personal/political philosophies, I must assume, or they would take steps to change them. I am not doing ANYONE, myself included, any favors by deliberately going out of my way to visit their forums and be disgusted, offended or infuriated by what I read there. As for the rest of the increasingly insane ad hominem rambling...it seems that other posters spoke too soon. Whatever virtues you may have, when dealing with other people or responding to other threads, you are clearly not able to behave like a sane human being when speaking to *me.* And you are also not able to emotionally cope with the issues raised by the OP in this thread. I would hesitate to speculate on the reasons why, but it doesn't really matter. Right now, for whatever reason, you want to fight. And you want that fight to be with a woman, and you are very very angry and upset that I am not interested in engaging with you to satisfy that need. Which is why you are so outraged that I am not "responding to your points", and generally being led where and you want me to go in conversation and debate, like a bull in the ring. shrug Terribly sorry. Left my horns in my other corset. [;)] quote: What they're looking to consent to is rather irrelevant in the context of what was suggested non-consensually. Other posters here, including other male dominants, have explained the concept of "venting" to you and recognized that the OP to this thread represented *no serious intent to harm or nonconsensually enslave any real man in real life. If you are unfamiliar with the word "venting" in the English language, I suggest you look it up. And then get the hell over your emotional reaction to the fantasy of universal male servitude. No one here has any serious intent of making that happen, and reading this thread should make that abundantly clear. quote:* Right, so if a man had an abusive mother, it's right for him to start raping women? No, but it is perfectly legitimate for him to leave his mother in a nursing home! [:D] Context is everything. No one here is seriously advocating servitude for all men--although it is well within our rights as participants on a female dominant forum to discuss that, if we choose. It is NOT your place to dictate our fantasies or topics of discussion here, any more than it is my place to dictate the fantasies which are allowed on the Masters forum OR the Gorean forum. No, the person here who cannot keep attitudes and actions within their proper context is you. And so far as your kindergarden morality goes, I do not share it. I am not a Christian, morally obligated to turn the other cheek when abused or challenged. And my worldview allows wrongs to be answered in kind or even disproportionately, under some circumstances. As when a victim of rape executes the man who raped her. quote: There is a search function. Type in "Aswad" in the author field. sigh This is the second or third time you have made this suggestion. Thus far I have avoided addressing it for the sake of tact and courtesy. But since you repeatedly hammer your insistence that I track down every post you have written in the past, let me try to explain why I will not be doing this. Frankly, it's because you're not that interesting to me! [:D] Sorry, that was a bit too blunt, and overstated. Let me rephrase that. You are doubtless a fascinating individual to women who want to submit to you. Or to men who hero-worship you as the male dominant they want to be when they grow up. But personally, as a dominant woman, I do not have enough interest in you, or any other dominant man on this planet, to invest the kind of time and energy you're talking about. I'm just not attracted to dominant men! And I am certainly not that interested in immersing myself for hours in their thoughts and feelings, unless the dom in question is a personal friend--or seems to have so many other wonderful qualities that I am attracted to him in spite of everything. You have done and said nothing that indicates a desire for friendship, and nothing about this exchange has inspired me to overcome my bias against boydoms, or made me want to invest the sort of energy you seem to be demanding as your "due". [:'(] It must also be said that normally I would reserve that sort of investment of time and energy for men I am actually attracted to--people I would want to play with, or consider as possible life partners. The men who are worth that kind of time and energy, for me, are submissive men. [:)] If I happened to get into a long-ish exchange on a forum with a sexy, articulate and intelligent submissive man who pushed all the right buttons--gentle, funny, wise, kind, imaginative, reasonable, giving and loving and oooooh-so sweetly-kinky? Rest assured, I might spend a few minutes with the search function when I saw that he had contributed over 4000 posts. [8D] For a male dom having a bad day and trying to force me into conflict, whether I'm willing or not? Nope. Not going to happen. No offense intended, Aswad. For the record, on a personal and human note: I get the impression that you have recently lost your children due to an ugly exercise of female power in your own life. I am very sorry that this has happened, and sympathetic to the loss and pain you must be feeling right now; I miss my own children very much when we are apart. However, I have neither the time nor the energy to serve as a surrogate for whoever it was who took those children from you, nor to stand in for some hateful caricature of feminists that you feel like beating on. Since you seem to have no interest in burying the hatchet and moving on to some more positive exchange, I will bid you adieu. Salvete, et pax vobiscum! [;)]

ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 2:30:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nephandi quote: As for being a poor representative of your gender, that would depend on the criterion applied; by mine, you have not represented your gender well in this thread. As a member of the fairer sex, i must agree. One can go on about me being submissive, and that is true... One could also "go on" about the fact that you are not just a submissive but *Aswad's Gorean submissive*, and as such you and I are not likely to share much in terms of worldview. Especially where the behavior of a proper woman is concerned! [:D] Lol...I'm sorry, this thread is taking a bit of a comedic turn now. I really will have to make this my last post for the day, before my sadistic side kicks in and I start actually enjoying it. (Honestly, nephandi, your master wasn't faring THAT badly!)

RedMagic1 -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 5:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Not sure what you were referring to (several options stuck out with regard to beating dead horses, some of them funny) This "conversation" left communication as a goal long ago, and entered the land of mutual goading and the pleasures of the hunt. If you want me to pull quotes from the three of you, I will, but you know I'm right, so please don't get all "Who, me?" about it. Y'all either need to chill out or get a room.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/1/2008 6:02:20 PM)
ShaktiSama, you are my new best friend! Thank you for your display of patience and decorum here, which I am going to remember as an example. :) Aswad, thank YOU for reminding me why I never approach the Gorean forum.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:52:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama This is absolute and utter nonsense, and everyone present should know it. Yourself included. I am never obligated to say that I like or approve of someone else's fantasies or relationships; my only obligation, moral OR legal, is to leave others alone to discuss and pursue their pleasures as they see fit. Actually, you are partially correct. I should have said the Forum Guidelines, where one of the pertinent passages go like this: quote: ORIGINAL: ModeratorTwo [...]personal attacks will not be tolerated. It also notes that it's not a place to insult the lifestyle preferences of others. quote: The fact that I find male dominance abhorrent is NOT something I choose to inflict on people who feel differently. No, but it's a useful declaration of bias, and appreciated as such. quote: I am not doing ANYONE, myself included, any favors by deliberately going out of my way to visit their forums and be disgusted, offended or infuriated by what I read there. I quite agree. [qoute]As for the rest of the increasingly insane ad hominem rambling...it seems that other posters spoke too soon. Whatever virtues you may have, when dealing with other people or responding to other threads, you are clearly not able to behave like a sane human being when speaking to *me.* I would ask that you point out where I have been guilty of "increasingly insane ad hominem rambling" in my reply to you. quote: And you are also not able to emotionally cope with the issues raised by the OP in this thread. Emotionally coping with it is not a problem. I have noted that there are various things about what she said that are questionable, at best, and that sexism coming from a woman who is complaining about the same from men is a double standard at best, and outright hypocrisy at worst. I have also noted that it pretty much fulfills a lot of negative stereotypes about feminism that are not generally true of most feminists. As I have noted here and elsewhere, I want a world without discrimination, and misandry does nothing to eliminate misogyny. quote: Right now, for whatever reason, you want to fight. No, I am not looking to fight. That simply isn't a good use of my time. And one can't fight on a forum in any case. What I want to do, is debate the issue, and that requires commenting on the points. Commenting on your assumptions about me, is counterproductive. quote: And you want that fight to be with a woman, and you are very very angry and upset that I am not interested in engaging with you to satisfy that need. Which is why you are so outraged that I am not "responding to your points", and generally being led where and you want me to go in conversation and debate, like a bull in the ring. Interesting interpretation, but rather far from the truth on all counts. I'm here to debate the issue, and you're not; that does not get me angry or upset, nor do I have any needs you could possibly satisfy. There is no cause to lead you anywhere, as you have amply demonstrated your character as far as such debates are concerned. For me to lead you to anything would be entirely redundant, and would pretty much invalidate the impression you're already making on your own. If you're looking to demonstrate that you aren't a bull in the ring, it may be a good idea to stop stabbiing at an imaginary toreador, and behaving like this is a debate, rather than some hair-pulling coontest. The latter, I have no interest in engaging in, at all. If there is any emotional response on my part, it is amusement. quote: Other posters here, including other male dominants, have explained the concept of "venting" to you and recognized that the OP to this thread represented *no serious intent to harm or nonconsensually enslave any real man in real life. If you go back to read my posts, you will hopefully see that I am aware that she was venting. You will also see that I note others here are empathizing with her. But at the same time, I am also pointing out that her venting is still channeled in a manner that is both contrary to the goal of equitable treatment for women, as well as duplicating the very problems in thinking that lead to the things causing her to feel a need to vent. There are a number of issues being raised, none of them contingent on the venting nature of her post. quote:* If you are unfamiliar with the word "venting" in the English language, I suggest you look it up. I am quite familiar with the word. quote: And then get the hell over your emotional reaction to the fantasy of universal male servitude. I have not addressed that fantasy at all, nor do I have a problem with that fantasy. Heck, I even commented on the requisites to making it happen. quote: No one here has any serious intent of making that happen, and reading this thread should make that abundantly clear. Regardless, it would not be empathized with if she posted about killing children, circumcizing girls, re-enslaving black people, gassing jews, or any number of other things that she presumably has no serious intent of realizing, but which there are people out there doing every day. quote: No, but it is perfectly legitimate for him to leave his mother in a nursing home! [:D] Now, that, we agree on. [:D] quote: Context is everything. No one here is seriously advocating servitude for all men--although it is well within our rights as participants on a female dominant forum to discuss that, if we choose. It is NOT your place to dictate our fantasies or topics of discussion here, any more than it is my place to dictate the fantasies which are allowed on the Masters forum OR the Gorean forum. I've not dictated your fantasies, nor the topics that you may discuss here. I have simply participated in the discussion, with an opposing view. As far as I know, agreement is not mandated to participate. quote: No, the person here who cannot keep attitudes and actions within their proper context is you. On this point, we disagree. quote: And so far as your kindergarden morality goes, I do not share it. What "kindergarden" morality would that be, since you've already admitted to not knowing me? And what about it is it that supposedly qualifies it as a "kindergarden" morality? quote: I am not a Christian, morally obligated to turn the other cheek when abused or challenged. I have never said you need to turn the other cheek at anything, nor have I suggested that you are a Christian. What I have said, is that you have resorted to clawing and hair-pulling in the absence of abuse, and that insofar as you have been challenged (and you haven't been, although your views have), you have not responded to that. By all means, I'm not saying that everyone needs to take the high ground. It's rather useful to do so at times, though. quote: And my worldview allows wrongs to be answered in kind or even disproportionately, under some circumstances. I have never argued that vengefulness is incompatible with being a woman; in fact, I've posited that it appears typical. quote: As when a victim of rape executes the man who raped her. Yup. Or when the man's family retaliates. Or all the way down to present day Israel vs. Palestine. That's one of the differences between justice and vengeance, and I've not said you can't stick with the latter. Again, as I noted, you decide what your character is, and the extent to which you want to expose it to the world.. quote: This is the second or third time you have made this suggestion. Second, if memory serves, and it was a misunderstanding on my part that prompted it this time. I thought your statement the last time was to the effect that you didn't know how (many posters don't), rather than a lack of interest. quote: Frankly, it's because you're not that interesting to me! [:D] Quite fair enough, and neither too blunt, nor overstated. [:D] quote: ]You have done and said nothing that indicates a desire for friendship, and nothing about this exchange has inspired me to overcome my bias against boydoms, or made me want to invest the sort of energy you seem to be demanding as your "due". [:'(] I have demanded nothing; I tried to explain how to do it, from a mistaken assumption explained above. I have said that you've been making assertions about me without research. Hope that clarifies; there is indeed no grounds for friendship. quote: For a male dom having a bad day and trying to force me into conflict, whether I'm willing or not? You have placed yourself in a conflict of your own making; I haven't forced you to do anything. quote: I get the impression that you have recently lost your children due to an ugly exercise of female power in your own life. I've never had children, and I generally dislike children. (Unfortunately, they love being around me. Go figure. [:D]) quote: However, I have neither the time nor the energy to serve as a surrogate for whoever it was who took those children from you, The last time I was hurt by a woman was a botched blood sample at the doc's, and my response was "Ow." Hardly qualifies as traumatic, unless you're a Freudian. [:D] quote: nor to stand in for some hateful caricature of feminists that you feel like beating on. I am not beating on you, so feel free to stop doing that anytime. quote: Since you seem to have no interest in burying the hatchet and moving on to some more positive exchange, I will bid you adieu. A more positive exchange is what I've been requesting all along. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:58:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 This "conversation" left communication as a goal long ago, and entered the land of mutual goading and the pleasures of the hunt. If you want me to pull quotes from the three of you, I will, but you know I'm right, so please don't get all "Who, me?" about it. I never left communication as a goal, although I admit my tone was more barbed than usual. My point being that if goading and hunting was the point, rather than trying to move on to a productive exchange, I have a girl no more than 2 yards from where I sit right now that is tons more fun to beat on than the dead horse. [:D] As for quotes, it's all there, innit? quote: Y'all either need to chill out or get a room. Sounds good either way. [:D] Health, al-Aswad.

SweetDommes -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 10:01:13 AM)
[sm=banghead.gif] OMG, I can't believe that this shit is still going on despite some damn good efforts to derail the nastiness. Honestly, I'm disgusted with both of you (Aswad and Shakti) at this point. You are both refusing to see what the other is saying (although, honestly, I agree more with Aswad, and I'm pretty violently anti-gorean .... honestly, I don't know why that's an issue in this topic at all because nothing he said - other than in response to you after you brought it up, Shakti, has been at all gorean related) and you both just keep going ... It's like being stuck in hell with the fucking energizer bunny, only there are two of them yelling at each other on top of beating their stupid drums. I'm going to leave the thread again and hope that at least one of you gets some sense and *stops the insanity*

MisPandora -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 10:04:29 AM)
fast reply to no one in particular Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it. Never argue with an idiot; people watching might not be able to tell the difference.

TheLookingGirl -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 11:34:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra Let me start by saying I am having a bad day, so this is not a happy thread. I do not feel well, my arthritic back is acting up very badly, my gallbladder hurts and yes, it needs to be removed. I am also PMSing and yes, I own a gun and no this has nothing to do with BDSM, it is just a frustrated Mistress letting off a bit of steam. I made the mistake of listening to the news and it put me in an even worse state of mind then I was already in. The news story was about the rape of an Iraqi girl by American soldiers. Now I am not looking for political debate, an ethical debate or a religious one, or anything of that nature. I am not looking to flame or be flamed. I just want to bitch. I love men, so please do not think I am a man hater, for I am nothing of the kind. I have a male sub that I love with all my being. It is just; when you as a woman look at the world today can you truly say that men have done a wonderful job in their so-called leadership roles? Am I the only one who some days wants to beat the living shit out of nearly every alpha male she see's and not in a fun way? Do you ever get sick and tired of hearing how women are supposed to be submissive to men and to let them rule things, when most of them cannot even rule a pet hamster? Do you ever want to scream stop raping and killing us (and our children) because you believe that it is your God given right to do so, or just because your physically stronger/bigger (not always) that you can get away with it? Do you ever want to physically bash some guy who has beaten and or abused his wife/girlfriend in some fashion, then justifies it by saying that the bible (or whatever religion/philosophy) says its ok? Do you ever feel the urge to choke the life out of a proven child molester when you see them on the news? Do you seethe when you hear that women do not need equal rights or control of their own bodies IE abortion? Do you ever get angry with other women who seemingly blindly follow anything the patriarchal system instructs her too? Do you ever feel that all the men should be gathered up and put into cages and only let out for breeding purposes and drone work? ~Lashra hug....back pat Sorry you had a not so great day. I can't read the rest of these posts as I'm not in the mood to read them...and I may not agree with you here...but I don't like bad days either.

thetammyjo -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 12:06:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheLookingGirl hug....back pat Sorry you had a not so great day. I can't read the rest of these posts as I'm not in the mood to read them...and I may not agree with you here...but I don't like bad days either. Wow! Someone who actually understood the point of the OP. Amazing! Good job, The LookingGirl.

aidan -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:08:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: TheLookingGirl hug....back pat Sorry you had a not so great day. I can't read the rest of these posts as I'm not in the mood to read them...and I may not agree with you here...but I don't like bad days either. Wow! Someone who actually understood the point of the OP. Amazing! Good job, The LookingGirl. Indeed. Can we all go home now?

dcnovice -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:17:36 PM)
quote: Someone who actually understood the point of the OP. Which was, I gather, that a bad day is a handy excuse to bash other groups. Yeah, the world really aches for more of that.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:34:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes you both just keep going ... Um, actually, no--we don't *both* just keep going. I'm not sure what part of "Peace be with you" and "I bid you adieu" at the end of my last post you didn't understand, but I am not going to be blamed for this man's insanity, which has involved dragging his entire male dominant fanclub AND his slavegirl into the Mistress forum to support his chest-beating melodrama and his need to exert social, sexual and intellectual control over unconsenting women. I have completely lost interest in his blather at this point; as a domme I progressively lose interest in any man the more aggressive, controlling or hateful his behavior becomes, and at this point Aswad is registering somewhat below the latest post from sissypantyboydomedomedome359 on my scale of "Men To Pay Attention To". Since I am still interested in the issues of the OP, however, even if I am completely bored with Aswad, I will make a simple observation. There is an entire forum of this discussion board dedicated to a male supremacist fantasy, and it is called Gor. I am not "in violation of TOS" by pointing out that the philosophical and sociopolitical basis of the Gorean fantasy is male supremacist, nor is this a "hateful" observation on my part. It is simply a statement of fact. Therefore, whether you are a proponent of female supremacy or not, the insane double standard which is being applied in this community, by men AND women, must be recognized as both absurd and dangerous. If the Gorean fantasy is "just a fantasy", harmless and fun and a legitimate lifestyle choice, and thus deserves an entire forum for the men and women who enjoy it...? Then so is my Femme Domme master plan to make all the men in the world into caged pets, dividing them by cock size, facial beauty, temperament and marketable skills into workers, sextoys, personal servants and polyandrous "wives". I will bloody well say what I like, and the Goreans can piss off back to Gor if they don't like it. Their astounding hypocrisy is second only to their astounding presumption; I have read at least one of the books upon which their lifestyle is based, and I assure you that a "kajira" is nothing but the female-submissive version of the *exact same fantasy* that Aswad condemns so vigorously here. The subtitle of every Gor book should be: "Another Woman Learns Her Place and Finds Out How Much She Enjoys Rape." I think we can see in this thread that a single mention of a single "misandrist" fantasy by a single dominant woman on one very bad day when she was in great emotional and physical pain...is enough to bring out all kinds of male hysterics pretty strongly. Even on a BDSM forum, where it should be possible to air ANY sadistic or dominant fantasies and have them universally recognized as...fantasies! And I think this is a shame. Personally, I know what the OP was feeling, on both the physical and emotional level. And I think I can express sympathy or solidarity with her without having it assumed that by expressing our feelings, we are automatically a threat to all male-kind that must be atacked and destroyed, socially or personally. Anyway, I do think some people have gotten the points I have tried to make in my posts, and have appreciated the fact that I did not shout or try to treat Aswad cruelly, despite dire provocation. For the people here who pursue the "you're both to blame" or "you're indistinguishable from your opponent" line of logic...I disagree, but I recognize that this is probably just a standard technique of dealing with a conflict that makes you uncomfortable. I think you might want to look at this attitude very closely in the future, though, and ask yourself if it is really the right answer. Parents and teachers do this often to children in conflict, for example, regardless of who starts or perpetuates the fight: bullies count on this kind of exercise of authority to cover their predations, as they can persecute any other child and have the victim receive equal blame for the conflict when he or she attempts self-defense. Judges and juries also do this to the victims of rape and assault, when everyone is all grown up--especially if the violence was transgendered or race-related. Rapists and hate criminals count on this dynamic, which they learn to manipulate in grade school, to allow them to use the system to harm their victims twice for the same input of effort. My only crime in this thread is that I do not submit to men, socially or intellectually. I am well aware that there is a standard method that many women (and submissive men) use to defuse conflict with male-aggressive groups like Aswad and his entourage, by appeasing them or running away when they throw down the gauntlet. But I do not feel that it is always "my place", as a woman, to bow my head, step aside or lower my voice whenever a penis enters the room and the owner starts blustering, making crazy accusations or snotty remarks, or yelling and jumping up and down on the furniture. It is not my job to endure abuse without retaliation or to tell ANY man what he wants to hear, including "This male-dominated planet is a wonderful place to be a woman." Because that is horseshit, and a crazy lie, and I am fond of neither. Nor do I recognize any man's right to dictate the "proper" and "correct" fantasies or political opinions of women in general, feminists in general, or me in particular. I'll decide what I want to think, what my desires are, and what I think are the best answers for myself and my species...thanks so very much. Perhaps more importantly...I do not recognize the right of any man to decide what topics and fantasies I am permitted to discuss in a forum for female dominants and sadists. Because that is just the definition of "ridiculous"! Regardless, the fact that I do not submit to male control or recognize male authority over my posting behavior does NOT mean that I deserve to be equated with a Gorean who storms into a female-dominant forum looking for a fight with a female dominant. I am NOT to blame because men cannot behave themselves decently and get a freaking grip, here or anywhere. Certain men will feel self-righteous when inflicting themselves on women, especially powerful women, no matter what we do or say. It is simply a common reaction to feminine beauty and authority. And if it was not an instinctive response to attack and try to assert control over women who attract, challenge or provoke men in some way, there would be a hell of a lot less rape, assault, and other forms of gendered terrorism in this world. Dominant women and submissive men who think we can always "buy off" aggression with appeasement are fooling themselves. And you are not making a better world for yourselves by helping to punish anyone who actively resists unwanted attempts at domination and control. Just because the victim of an aggressive strategy is a woman or a member of a racial minority does not mean that *resisting aggression* makes the victim morally indistinguishable from the aggressor, or equally to blame for the conflict. Who started it DOES matter. Who perpetuates it DOES matter. Whose house you are standing in, when raising your voice, DOES matter. Whose country has been invaded DOES matter. And it is insane to argue otherwise. Anyway, I think I will let the thread go back to its subterranean slumbers, if no one else minds. I only popped back into to respond to the blame-sharing nonsense, because it is nonsense. And I personally would like to see attitudes like this go the way of "provocatively dressed" and "leading him on" arguments in the courtroom. We all deserve better, especially from each other. [:'(]

RedMagic1 -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:45:50 PM)
Someone has to decide to let the other have the last word. Who's it going to be?

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