RE: Do we really need men? (Full Version)

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thetammyjo -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 1:47:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Someone who actually understood the point of the OP.


Which was, I gather, that a bad day is a handy excuse to bash other groups.

Yeah, the world really aches for more of that.


I don't think the OP, original post here, was about bashing anyone.

It was about sharing her feelings based on a crappy day.

If she had said "I'm forming a political group to get this X legalized" then I think we'd all be outraged. But she was talking about her feelings and thoughts that were going through her head.

Do we really want to tell people what they can feel and think?



ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 2:06:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Someone has to decide to let the other have the last word.  Who's it going to be?


He's already had the last word--a few times, by my count.  [;)]  What does that tell you?



vampchick88 -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 3:33:50 PM)

men in leadership roles...not always the best idea. Thats why I own one! he's so cute, loyal, and follows my commands. Its why every woman should own a man. As for saying that all men aren't smart thats not entirely correct...some have mind about them. some need a womans prospective to help them stay on task.
  Overall I need my rubberpet, he's there when I need a shoulder to cry on, when I want to play with my flogger, to fulfill every sexual need, to help me with anything he can possibly think of, and to love me just about as much as I love him. he may be a pet, owned, soon to be collared and a man but he's my pookie and I do need him. ~Lorelei



dcnovice -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 4:59:07 PM)

<never mind>



SweetDommes -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 6:09:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
you both just keep going ... 


Um, actually, no--we don't both just keep going.  I'm not sure what part of "Peace be with you" and "I bid you adieu" at the end of my last post you didn't understand


My problem with it was that it was not your last post ... you decided to be nasty to his girl in your next post.  All the smilies in the world isn't going to hide what most people are going to see as your true meaning behind your words, to both of them. 

And now, I really am going to be leaving this thread.



LadyClaudiaVan -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 7:33:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

ShaktiSama, you are my new best friend!  Thank you for your display of patience and decorum here, which I am going to remember as an example.  :)

Aswad, thank YOU for reminding me why I never approach the Gorean forum.


here here!



ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/2/2008 8:00:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
My problem with it was that it was not your last post ... you decided to be nasty to his girl in your next post.  All the smilies in the world isn't going to hide what most people are going to see as your true meaning behind your words, to both of them. 

And now, I really am going to be leaving this thread.


SweetDommes, you can leave or stay as you like.  But I was not nasty to Aswad OR his girl.

In the one post I made to her, I did point out that she was his girl!  This is was something she did not elect to do, in her own posts--I had to look at her profile to see that she was a Gorean "kajira" belonging to the specific man in question.

As such, she was not exactly an objective and dispassionate commentator on the nature of proper feminine identity and behavior.  I was well within my rights to comment on this fact, and there was nothing nasty about it.  I was simply putting her remarks in the proper perspective.

Now me?  I've been trying to leave this thread for ages, so that it can sink like dead R'lyeh back beneath the waves.  If you want to discuss this with me further--my mailbox is open to you.  I bear you no ill will!  But no, I'm sorry, I am not going to be villified or villainized because people who bite my ass tend to find that it is more than they can chew.  [;)]

I am not to blame for how others choose to behave, and I did not drag someone else's slavegirl to this forum by the hair to be humiliated.  Like Aswad, nephandi made her own choices, and I gave her the luxury of several posts without a response.  It was only when she had the nerve to condemn me personally as a "poor representative of my gender" that I made a reply, and pointed out who and what she was.

If we've all decided that a Gorean slavegirl is the only proper role model for human womanhood, I'll be happy to secede from the species and become an honorary bonobo.  Here's yet another smiley that will not conceal my true feelings. [:'(]



hands0n0knees -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 2:12:33 AM)

I'm heartened to hear that violent sexism can be excused by having had a bad day.  I'm damn tired of taking responsibility, too.



mystique2003 -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 2:50:17 AM)

Yes you pointed out that nephandi was his girl in  big bold letters.  The tone of that post was nasty in my eyes too.  I have gone to the Gorean boards not because I am Gorean and certainly not because I agree with their philosophies or parts of them. I go to learn and to understand how others chose to live. And I don't nitpick Gor or Goreans in every post I make as it seems you do.
As for Aswad, I never agree with everything he says. But more than once he has written something that makes me reflect on aspects of my own life, and has helped me to understand myself just a bit better. That is what I like to get from the people who post here. Be they male or female Dominants, Goreans, slaves , subs, switches or what have you.
I attempt not to give off hand insults and then get defensive about what I wrote.  As you seem to do.
Be well. Take care. Whatever
Mystique



undergroundsea -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 8:53:40 AM)

I think rants serve a purpose. They allow venting and enable some form of communication about matters with which people have difficulty. However, rants have an effect. Most carry a flavor of negativity, which often propagates through the discussion.  And rants of an us-versus-them spirit tend to create a divide, at least temporarily. I accept rants will continue to occur and that the effects of rants will continue to occur--people will let off steam and those frustrated by the rant will in turn let off steam. Perhaps the aftermath will bring new insights, perhaps not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Guys - yes youre wanted, yes youre needed; of course we're going to gripe about you now and then - you do after all, all do some inexplicable things and some of you do some terrible things, but we know youre not all bad. But the gals do need to let off steam from time to time - perhaps its best to do it somewhere private, out of your way.

And gals, what they want and need just as much is your approval - however grown up they are, and it hurts them when theyre told theyre all the same as the worst of them, and then they'll live up to that name because they'll get angry at the apparent rejection.


I appreciate your attempt to diffuse the matter and create a communication bridge.

I would like to add another perspective since the text above does not accurately describe my feelings. As my prior posts in this thread indicate, I was not too worked up by the thread. Still, I did not like it. It is not so much that I need an ego stroke--I do not all of a sudden feel that women in general or even the women who align with the idea in the OP reject me. But I do feel at the end of an unreasonable generalization that because the mentioned atrocities have been committed by men, all men, including myself, are evil. In a way it's similar to name calling--I have not suddenly begun to question my worth because I was called a name but it feels unfair and discourteous to me.

Incidentally, given the prior statements and context that I see for the proposed solution, I did not read the bit about caging men as a sexual fantasy but in the same political context as the preceding statements.

Perhaps part of the heat in this thread stems from communication styles. From what little I  know about gender differences, women have a greater tendency to read and leave room for reading between the lines, whereas men are more likely to state the point more directly and interpret the point more directly. Furthermore, women have a greater tendency to speak to vent without attaching any action or greater significance to their words. And so really, I expect that this generalization is not intended as blindly as it seems. That is, I have reasonable confidence that posters who expressed that men in general are evil do not turly hold these atrocities against me or all men. Still, I think it would be better to not make what can be perceived as a blind generalization. I think the responsibility of clarity in conveying what one feels lies more with the writer than the reader.

quote:

But the gals do need to let off steam from time to time - perhaps its best to do it somewhere private, out of your way.


This idea appeals to reason.

Even if I did not feel as I do about the generalization, I could easily see via general empathy why some men have taken offense as they have--I think most people would in similar circumstances. I expect if a man came and posted a thread that listed several atrocities committed by women, generalized that all women are horrible, and suggested that all they are good for is labor and breeding while kept in cages, we would see similar objections from women. We would likely see some men come in to agree with said charges. And we would likely see men come in to disagree and defend women, as some women have to defend the men in this thread, which I appreciate.

It is hard to not feel affected by a generalization directed against a group to which one belongs. If the generalization is not directed against me, it is the responsibility of the person initiating the statement to clarify or qualify the statement as needed. It is hard for me fathom why some cannot fathom the objection by men.

I welcome help to broaden how I am looking at the matter to see why those who think the objections from men are unreasonable feel that way.

Cheers,

Sea



undergroundsea -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 9:11:23 AM)

If a man is having hard times and commits violence on others out of this stress, his actions are not excused. When a male sub posts in this forum in frustration that all women are greedy and want money, he might receive censure from others for his griping or unfair generalization regardless of whether he is venting. While the background and emotional state allow for perspective, they do not erase the words or actions.

The state of mind of the OP gives to why she felt low on patience and felt a need to vent but it leaves me unclear how much the message behind the post took birth in this frustration, and how much that post represents a held belief and the role of the frustration was simply to put it in words. And we have responses of agreement by others who were unlikely all having a similarly difficult day. I am unclear how much of the responses of agreement by other posters were to facilitate the venting desired by the OP (Oh yeah girlfriend, I hear ya, let it out), and how much the other responses stemmed from holding similar beliefs. So while I do not think all such posters truly are proposing that men be put in cages, it does make me wonder about the general sentiment that produced such a statement.

I wonder if such a statement comes from a general resentment (perhaps subsconsciously, perhaps only at a political level) against men, perhaps not all men absolutely but still against men collectively. Thus, to me, this thread seems to be a mix of venting and a political statement. Towards the political statement, there are two points this thread touches: what men have done to make the world what it is today, and how men might oppress or abuse power.

Aside from what I have stated in my prior post about how the generalization makes me feel, I have intellectual difficulty with the logic of the message and inconsistencies of the same presented in this thread: said atrocities were committed by men, all men are evil, they should be locked up and used only for labor and breeding. As I said in my prior post, the post likely does not mean all men but it likely does mean most men. 

The logic behind this generalization does not convince me intellectually. I think this logic looks at selective data and represents an argument I see to be academically both illogical (how well the premises of an argument lead to the conclusion) and invalid (whether the premises are true). Furthermore, the argument conflicts with my general belief that there is both good and bad distributed across people, men and women.

I think what we are discussing is what happens when one has power. Power without consequences has potential to corrupt. Historically and even today, brute force is a common form of power, which is a power men are more able and, thus, more likely to exercise. I think it is for this reason we see a statistically greater occurence of abuse of this power amongst men. What happens when we bring emotional violence into the picture? When women have had, have, or will have such power (by virtue of social status, sexuality, physical strength, more), I expect similar tendency for corruption.

I think what we see in the atrocities is not nature of men as much as nature of people,

Cheers,

Sea



undergroundsea -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 9:24:57 AM)

Miscellaneous thoughts:

If I am offended by a suggestion that men should be kept in cages to be used for labor and breeding purposes, I expect women will be also about a similar suggestion. I expect that women who perceive this idea to be practice rather than mere suggestion in times past or times present would find even greater offense. This thought gives perspective about anger in feminism.

I also identify as a usual suspect, although one who does not have an amusing emoticon to share ;-) I am fortunate to have found a community where Mf and Fm dynamics exist in harmony and in mutual respect, which leaves me to welcome constructive participation in this forum from those outside the femdom dynamic.

I try to avoid gender-war debates and would want to take care that my disagreement with one woman or even a group of women is not conveyed as censure of all women, for such a sentiment would be untrue and might alienate or offend women I would not want to alienate or offend.

Sometimes I question my tendency to disagree with generalizations against men. When I hear a generalization against men, I first consider how it applies to me. If it does not, I disagree with it and might defend against it. But even if it does not apply to me, does the generalization hold over a broader sampling, and am I defending those who do not deserve to be defended? In any case, a negative generalization against men that does not hold true for me feels unfair to me because it attempts to include me. If I am defending those who do not deserve to be defended, the person behind the generalization is blaming those who do not deserve to be blamed. Perhaps there is a middle ground somewhere.

Now any positive generalizations that do not apply to me I don't mind so much ;-)

Without any adjusted research, it seems empirically that men are more prone to violence and aggression. I am unsure how much of it is biological (which I see to apply more to aggression), and how much of it is cultural conditioning (which I see to apply more to violence). If I see counterexamples to the generalization--men who avoid violence and women who are violent--it suggests that cultural conditioning plays a more significant role than biological tendency towards violence. To the extent the tendency for violence comes from cultural conditioning, I think both men and women share the responsibility for effects of upbringing and cultural conditioning.

I think the tide is headed towards generations where the balance in power will shift towards women. When such power lies with women, I expect there will be instances of abuse of power. However, I expect it will not be abused as it has been in times past. Some women will be able to draw upon their individual or collective experience for having been at the other end of it and not commit the same, while some will use the past to justify committing the same. The former along with progression of civil thought will have a mitigating effect in abuse of power. By the latter, I mean that the attitude towards child abuse is different today than it was in times past, which has occurred more through progression of civil thought than through an effort by children to end this abuse.

Cheers,

Sea



ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 9:34:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mystique2003
The tone of that post was nasty in my eyes too. 


Well, thank you for contributing another female submissive point of view on how a woman should speak and behave.  Wow, I didn't let a Gorean slavegirl chastise me alongside her master about how to be a proper representative of my gender--what a nasty nasty bitch I am!  [:)]

In any case...I must say, I find it highly amusing how frightened and offended everyone is to see a female dominant stand up to a male dominant and his entourage on this forum.  And how desperate everyone here is to modify my behavior rather than his, or that of his supporters.  Literally, I have messages in my inbox begging me to "be less macha" and "let him win", as if some dire consequence is going to result from daring to challenge him!

Lol...seriously, if I'd known it was this easy to shake the pillars of the dominant ideology, I would have done it a lot sooner.  Just LOOK at how uncomfy everyone is.  I am going to have to give some serious thought to all of those male-dom requests to "explore their submissive side"--so long as they are willing to explore their submissive side in public, I really should do it more often.  It seems that there are a lot of people in this world who need to see male hegemony challenged or deconstructed openly.  Perhaps a few more experiences like this will help them realize that resisting or talking back to male authority is not the end of the world.

Also, just for the record, I do not nitpick Gor with every post.  But I do bring up the fact that there is entire male supremacist forum on this board every time that someone reacts to a female supremacist fantasy or suggestion as if it is somehow categorically evil and insane.  This double standard within the community is not acceptable to me, and to be honest I think it is alienating and harmful to both female dominants and male submissives for their fantasies to be so routinely demonized.

The fact that male dominance and female submission are "naturalized" in this culture does not make them more morally correct, and it is time to stop treating them as privileged.  I don't really give a damn about Gor for the most part, but I refuse to accept a culture where Gor is jim-dandy but Gor-for-Men is such an unthinkable unspeakable abomination that everyone must abase themselves with shame and apologies if they even dare to think about it.

Also for the record, I am not interested in having my behavior dictated by male dominants OR female submissives of any inclination--and that one in particular.  If you're attracted to that lifestyle, or a female submissive lifestyle of any other orientation--please feel free to enjoy it at the appropriate times and in the appropriate places.  But recognize that as a female dominant, I will not live by the standards of proper behavior that you set for yourself.  I will be living by the standard you set for your men.



MisPandora -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 9:56:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Also, just for the record, I do not nitpick Gor with every post.  But I do bring up the fact that there is entire male supremacist forum on this board every time that someone reacts to a female supremacist fantasy or suggestion as if it is somehow categorically evil and insane.  This double standard within the community is not acceptable to me, and to be honest I think it is alienating and harmful to both female dominants and male submissives for their fantasies to be so routinely demonized.

Not *all* fem doms are offended.  Then again, not all of us are feminazis or supremacists, so that might take into account why so many of us are staring at this train wreck from the sidelines.  It's not a male that I see alienating people right now on this thread.....



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 9:56:31 AM)

I understand that this thread was just a vent and I understand how she felt when she was writing it, I've felt that way on many occasion and, like her, I felt better after venting and never had any intention of locking away the male population let alone ridding the world of them. It was an emotional reaction... go figure, women having emotional reactions? But the posts from some of the men (and women here) are far more disturbing. Like was mentioned, the number of threads that pop up ranting and raving about pro dommes and female dominants in general far outweigh this one and at least this started with her telling us it was just a rant. Take it for what it was people... geeze.
 
And just because I'm the way I am I have to also say... The two posters that found it impossible to walk away from this thread before they got ugly with each other... both of you, your behavior was a perfect example of things not to do. I'm not a submissive nor am I dictating anyone's behavior, but I will say that I agree with mystique2003 in her assessment.
 
Jewel



beargonewild -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 10:12:43 AM)

As a 2 spirit person, please allow me to interject another view which has bearing on this topic of discussion yet from a slightly different angle. This person has no desire to modify any other person's behavior nor is it my intent to dictate anyone's behavior. Granted the double standards are everywhere and have been for centuries, that is unfortunate and I do want to believe that us individuals are trying to change that as individuals.

Granted throughout history, man hasn't portrayed his best qualities as a species. It makes more sense to look at this issue not from a male POV or a female POV but from humanity's POV. Wouldn't that avoid this conflict of male versus female?

edited to add: I am fully aware that the OP was a way to rant in the same way we all have a rough day and need to let off steam, it is harmless as it was not aimed at anyone specifically.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 10:24:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora
Not *all* fem doms are offended.  Then again, not all of us are feminazis or supremacists.....


Yeah, that's a real helpful and positive contribution.  "Feminazi" is a great word to use about someone whose values and ideas you don't share, isn't it?  It's kind of like calling a pro domme a "whore".  [:'(]

If you ever want a mutually supportive community of female dominants to exist--try holding up your end once in a while.  I do not attack other women on this forum.  It is a shame that they cannot say the same about me.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 10:53:35 AM)

Feminazi?  Lovely. 

I have to stop typing now, or things really WILL get unpleasant.




TexasMaam -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 11:00:47 AM)

I wouldn't keep them in cages, too expensive.  They'll have to work 20 hours a day, grow their own groceries and make their own meals; housed in small barracks.  As for the breeders, they'd have to be biddable and exceptional workers, just like any other working animal breeding program. 

The rest would be eunuchs and we might want to start with Congress.

TM



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Do we really need men? (2/3/2008 11:05:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasMaam

I wouldn't keep them in cages, too expensive.  They'll have to work 20 hours a day, grow their own groceries and make their own meals; housed in small barracks.  As for the breeders, they'd have to be biddable and exceptional workers, just like any other working animal breeding program. 

The rest would be eunuchs and we might want to start with Congress.

TM


You mean they aren't already? I've seen pics of some of them, it's real hard to tell the gender on some of them.
 
lol
 
Jewel 



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