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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/12/2014 6:52:50 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You oppose the bans in California and New Jersey but those bans are only against doing this to minors. 

I do? Well, that's interesting. I have no memory of saying so. But if we assume that you aren't hallucinating again, or just making shit up, I'm sure you can link the post for me. Thanks in advance.

Then what bans do you oppose? You are whining about the therapies being banned. The only bans are in CA and NJ.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/12/2014 7:05:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You oppose the bans in California and New Jersey but those bans are only against doing this to minors. 

I do? Well, that's interesting. I have no memory of saying so. But if we assume that you aren't hallucinating again, or just making shit up, I'm sure you can link the post for me. Thanks in advance.

Then what bans do you oppose? You are whining about the therapies being banned. The only bans are in CA and NJ.

So you made it up then.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/12/2014 7:19:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

you would let parents force kids into these programs which inevitably leads to dead kids.

What responsible therapist would impose on a minor (or anyone for that matter) a therapeutic regime that he knew was potentially damaging? A religious nut maybe, but a licensed professional would be risking his license regardless of the circumstances. And the California law, since you brought it up, doesn't even apply to ministers or religious groups. So this is all just political theater.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/12/2014 7:34:57 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/12/2014 7:20:15 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You oppose the bans in California and New Jersey but those bans are only against doing this to minors. 

I do? Well, that's interesting. I have no memory of saying so. But if we assume that you aren't hallucinating again, or just making shit up, I'm sure you can link the post for me. Thanks in advance.

Then what bans do you oppose? You are whining about the therapies being banned. The only bans are in CA and NJ.

So you made it up then.
No. What bans are you opposing if not the ones in CA and NJ? Those are the only bans out there.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/12/2014 8:02:30 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

But the larger question of bans is a separate matter.

Is it, though?

At least in the Texas example, the antigay zeal of those advocating reparative therapy deepens my wariness about inflicting this "treatment" on vulnerable minors.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:18:08 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If the therapy is out there then parents will force it on their kids. How many times does this have to be said? How many kids have to die or wind up on the streets before we stop this crap?



So we shouldn't allow anyone to try it because some parents might abuse it? Sorry but it still sounds like you approve of freedom of choice only if its something you think they should choose to do.

There is no science saying it works. So it is simply abuse of children and defrauding of self hating adults. How is that a good thing?



I never claimed it worked or was a good thing. I said a person should have the choice to decide if they want to try something. You seem to think if they want to change there must be something wrong with them and you are going to save them from themselves. Personally I don't think I have the right to tell a person what to do with their body but you seem to think it's ok in this case.

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:29:21 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Presumably those wishing to 'cure' themselves of their sexual preferences are going to avail themselves of some service offering such an outcome.

For me the question is whether such 'cures' are conscionable. There is no evidence that they work, they have no scientific or empirical basis - they show all the signs of quack 'cures' promoted by snake oil salespeople. Most experts in the field of sexuality doubt whether such 'cures' can actually be effected. So I see the call to stop this disreputable practice as closing down these shady operators and snake oil salespeople.

If people still wish to change their sexual preference through prayer or the like, they're welcome to try. But they should be alerted to the fact that the 'cures' promoted by shady operators and snake oil salespeople don't work and in the opinion of many experts, cannot work.

Viewed from this perspective the question is whether we are content to allow the unscrupulous promoters of these shonky 'cures' to continue offering impossible cures to the innocent and exploiting these vulnerable troubled people

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/13/2014 3:33:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:33:14 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Presumably those wishing to 'cure' themselves of their sexual preferences are going to avail themselves of some service offering such an outcome.

For me the question is whether such 'cures' are conscionable. There is no evidence that they work, they have no scientific or empirical basis - they show all the signs of quack 'cures' promoted by snake oil salespeople. Most experts in the field of sexuality doubt whether such 'cures' can actually be effected. So I see the call to stop this disreputable practice as closing down these shady operators and snake oil salespeople.

If people still wish to change their sexual preference through prayer or the like, they're welcome to try. But they should be alerted to the fact that these approaches don't work and in the opinion of many experts, cannot work.


Any time you go into a hospital for a medical procedure they have to explain the chances of success and possible problems that could come up as a result of it. I don't see why this would be any different.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:34:26 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		No hospital offers a service with a zero success rate and a 100% failure rate.

That's the difference.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 7:59:38 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

So this is all just political theater.

Given that the Lone Star State has no ban on reparative therapy, the GOP's platform plank is indeed (melo)dramatic.


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 9:34:33 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yup. If you can't solve (or don't want to solve) real issues, invent faux-ones.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 12:15:41 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

That's just astonishing. What a bunch of children!

It gets worse.

http://themooredaily.com/news/throwing-the-first-stone-state-house-district-91-candidate-expresses-extreme-views-on-gays

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 2:09:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

That's just astonishing. What a bunch of children!

It gets worse.

http://themooredaily.com/news/throwing-the-first-stone-state-house-district-91-candidate-expresses-extreme-views-on-gays

It's unusual to see a Christian Reconstructionist actually acknowledge that is what they believe but anyone who wants to institute Old Testament law is talking about doing that.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 2:51:03 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

That's just astonishing. What a bunch of children!

It gets worse.

http://themooredaily.com/news/throwing-the-first-stone-state-house-district-91-candidate-expresses-extreme-views-on-gays


Doesn't it bother these people that what they say looks so much like the sort of insane witch-doctor lunacy that comes out of third world countries that have never experienced an enlightenment? What is the point of inventing this thing we call 'reason' if people so comprehensively ditch it?

DC, come and live here in the UK. It's a proper country where you have to be over 18 to hold any government post. People here don't automatically assume you're a communist, terrorist or Satanist if you go around being reasonable, balanced and grown-up about stuff.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 2:57:47 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Presumably those wishing to 'cure' themselves of their sexual preferences are going to avail themselves of some service offering such an outcome.

For me the question is whether such 'cures' are conscionable. There is no evidence that they work, they have no scientific or empirical basis - they show all the signs of quack 'cures' promoted by snake oil salespeople. Most experts in the field of sexuality doubt whether such 'cures' can actually be effected. So I see the call to stop this disreputable practice as closing down these shady operators and snake oil salespeople.

If people still wish to change their sexual preference through prayer or the like, they're welcome to try. But they should be alerted to the fact that these approaches don't work and in the opinion of many experts, cannot work.


Any time you go into a hospital for a medical procedure they have to explain the chances of success and possible problems that could come up as a result of it. I don't see why this would be any different.


THB, given who you are and how you've become as an adult, I'm sometimes astonished that you'd still want to support such gobsmackingly awful views as this. Why do you do it? You must know that all it would do is create utter misery for someone like you. Why do you have such rigid knee-jerk loyalty to revolting rightie opinions that have never done you or people like you any good whatsoever?


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:14:52 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


Any time you go into a hospital for a medical procedure they have to explain the chances of success and possible problems that could come up as a result of it. I don't see why this would be any different.

I do. Hospitals only offer credible and established procedures from credible and established practitioners.

This doesn't meet the standard, and would never get past the medical staff meeting.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:25:04 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Presumably those wishing to 'cure' themselves of their sexual preferences are going to avail themselves of some service offering such an outcome.

For me the question is whether such 'cures' are conscionable. There is no evidence that they work, they have no scientific or empirical basis - they show all the signs of quack 'cures' promoted by snake oil salespeople. Most experts in the field of sexuality doubt whether such 'cures' can actually be effected. So I see the call to stop this disreputable practice as closing down these shady operators and snake oil salespeople.

If people still wish to change their sexual preference through prayer or the like, they're welcome to try. But they should be alerted to the fact that these approaches don't work and in the opinion of many experts, cannot work.


Any time you go into a hospital for a medical procedure they have to explain the chances of success and possible problems that could come up as a result of it. I don't see why this would be any different.


THB, given who you are and how you've become as an adult, I'm sometimes astonished that you'd still want to support such gobsmackingly awful views as this. Why do you do it? You must know that all it would do is create utter misery for someone like you. Why do you have such rigid knee-jerk loyalty to revolting rightie opinions that have never done you or people like you any good whatsoever?


Self hate. I really can't think of any other possible answer.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:28:48 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's pretty glib, and certainly unfair.

Many Americans vote against their own best interests in a variety of ways on a variety of issues, especially economic.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:48:03 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's pretty glib, and certainly unfair.

Many Americans vote against their own best interests in a variety of ways on a variety of issues, especially economic.

We're not talking about voting against your economic self interest. We're talking about someone advocating for allowing a treatment whose only known effect is to cause negative outcomes in their own population.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/13/2014 3:58:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		And every day people advocate for allowing economic policies whose only known effect is to cause negative outcomes in their own population.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 120
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