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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 5:15:40 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You continue to advocate for something that doesn't work and that the only known result is negative. Why?

You're making shit up again. If you could read, you wouldn't have to do that.

Still no answer.

When dave is coming to your defense maybe it is time to start rethinking your position.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 7:18:39 AM   
SadistDave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave



Your whole arguement hinges on the notion that all kids who think they're gay are 1. actually gay, and 2. happy about thinking they're gay.


I have no idea where you get this bit of nonsense from.

My argument is based on all consensual sexual preferences and behaviours are equally valid. If you want to disagree, you will necessarily be arguing that not all sexual preferences are equally valid ie that one or some are better than others.

If you wish to criticise my view feel free but at least get my position right for what it is - which is something completely different to what you have imagined it to be.


What a steaming pile of homo-nazi horseshit!

Whether homosexuality is "valid" is not at issue. What is at issue is that you propose that a child can decide for him/herself whether or not they want to engage in certain activities, but that you would deny them the tools and opportunity to correct a decision they are unhappy with!

Adults make valid sexual decisions they regret even though they consented to them. Adults consent to relationships and later realize they've made a mistake, but find themselves trapped in circumstances they can't escape. Adults get "caught up in the moment" and consent to things which make them feel guilt, remorse, and horror afterwards. According to you though, if someone happens to be a child who makes the same mistakes with someone of the same sex, they'll just have to suffer because being gay is "valid".

You are promoting child abuse for the sake of political correctness in the exact same way the a parent trying to "fix" their gay child for religious reasons would be engaging in child abuse.

-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 6/14/2014 7:25:33 AM >


_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 7:28:22 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

homo-nazi

Well, that's an interesting new adjective.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 7:32:14 AM   
mnottertail


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One is left wondering if it will in time become so commonplace it can stand in good stead without the hyphenation.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 7:46:29 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

One is left wondering if it will in time become so commonplace it can stand in good stead without the hyphenation.

The guy who claims to have coined the term doesn't hyphenate it. He says, "the term is needed to describe homosexuals and militant, pro-homosexual non-homosexuals who force their ideology on people against their will, in violation of their civil rights, in a hurtful, harassing, hateful manner."

I'm guessing he's unaware of or indifferent to what real Nazis did to real homosexuals.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 7:48:15 AM   
mnottertail


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But he hyphenates prohomosexuals and nonhomosexuals. His hyphendrive is all fucked up.



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:06:59 AM   
dcnovice


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Words to live by:

“If you take hyphens seriously, you will surely go mad.”

OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS STYLE MANUAL


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:13:27 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

homo-nazi

Well, that's an interesting new adjective.

Yep. I've never been called that before. I guess that means I'll have to go out and get a new wardrobe. Communication with ignorant buffoons who delude themselves into thinking they understand my position better than I do is a complete waste of time (are you listening Sadist Dave?).

So I am going to do the gay thing and go shopping.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:16:05 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I don't know of any effective method for changing gender preference. But... If an individual wants to change, why deny them the attempt?

Very simply, because 'reparative therapy' has been shown by the same basis they use for any treatment that it doesn't work, period.

Very simply, you are not responding to what I wrote. Pronouncing a blanket ban against any and all "not officially approved" approaches to the amelioration of a behavior or condition from which an individual may seek relief is pig-headed nonsense. Restricting the claims that providers can make, and the conditions under which they can make them, is perfectly reasonable and in the public interest. But what I asked was, why deny private individuals the freedom to make an attempt if they come across something they feel might work for them? It may only appear to work in some cases, and the data may be scarce, but if the individual is informed and decides it's worth a try, by what right should they be denied the freedom to do so? In my opinion, a far greater danger is the pernicious conceit that there exists a class of "elites" who are invested with the responsibility of protecting the idiot children in their care.

K.




I didn't say blanket bans against unapproved treatments, I said bans for treatments that have been proved to be harmful, there is a big difference. There are a lot of controversial treatments out there, things like CBT (cognitive behavior therapy), EMDR and the like, that have their detractors, but they are legal. However, if a treatment was felt to be dangerous and not merely ineffective, the government can step in and ban and that is where the line is. Therapists are licenses (least good ones are), and as such there is a basis to take that license away, primarily if they do things to harm their patient. There are treatments that once were routinely used as 'therapy' that involved drugs and such, that today if a therapist used it would get them put in jail....it isn't about being non approved, it is about proven harm.


With reparative therapy, the states that banned it did so at the encouragement of professional groups who basically are given the authority to decide what is mental illness and what isn't. The DSM is the bible of therapists and psychiatrists, and is recognized both by law and the health industry. If these same people are saying that a treatment is dangerous, they are going to be listened to.

This kind of ban is especially important with children, and the 'right of parents' has limits,and rightfully so. If a kid is in danger, the parents rights no longer hold. If a kid is Jehovas Witness and gets into an auto accident and the parents refuse blood transfusions, a judge will tell the hospital to go ahead and save the kids life, because the kid has no choice and because of the way parental authority is, cannot say no to them easily. With adults it is much different, and I don't believe the courts have ever stepped in if the patient said no...the bans for reparative therapy I believe are for children, and it is because the mainstream groups in the psych branch of things have said it is not only ineffective, but also dangerous.

Put it this way, every once in while in NYC, they arrest some dumb ass moron who killed or hurt their child trying to 'get the devil out of it', or especially among the Caribbean community, to 'get the devil out' of a child they think is gay for some reason, and it involves things like boiling water or putting them in a tub of ice water and the like, and they are arrested for child abuse. If they prayed over the child, if they used holy oil or did whatever, they wouldn't be arrested, but because they caused harm they were, and it is the same rationale with reparative therapy, that it is harmful, and it is.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:28:42 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
What is at issue is that you propose that a child can decide for him/herself whether or not they want to engage in certain activities, but that you would deny them the tools and opportunity to correct a decision they are unhappy with!


Sexual orientation isn't a decision, if it was they wouldn't need a treatment program. As to the treatment program, I'd be all for it if it did anything besides convincing people to kill themselves. Which thinking about it....that may well be the point.


< Message edited by GotSteel -- 6/14/2014 8:58:03 AM >

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:33:42 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

OH! OH! OH! OH!

I KNOW! I KNOW!

[sarcasm]Since all homosexuals are all cheerful, happy people who always want to be carefree (Dare I say "gay"?) members of the LGBT community, none of them would ever want to change anyway. [/sarcasm]

Which brings me to an earlier point....

No one has yet produced any evidence that ALL homosexuals are "born that way".

Recently we had that nutjob in California who went on a killing spree because he couldn't get laid. I'm sure there must be a lot of people who can't get laid that would rather explore homosexuality than spend another night alone. That would be a slightly more sane choice than a murderous rampage ending in suicide. Are we to believe that every person who ever committed a homosexual act in prison was just deluding themselves until they hit the big house? What about the homeless and/or runaway teens who prostitute themselves to homosexuals so they can make enough money to survive because they have no education or marketable skills. It would seem that there is actually rather a lot of choice involved. Unfortunately, there are probably a lot of cases where there appears to be no choice, and people being people, there are probably quite a few who get stuck in those kinds of circumstances that would like to find a way out.

Perhaps the LGBT community would rather see people just kill themselves instead?

-SD-





This post is whacked, and it reminds me of the idiot who wrote an article in my local paper as an op ed (that I wrote a rebut of), that claimed that of course people want to be homosexual, that a man or woman can give much more pleasure to a same sex partner because, of course, they 'know what feels good'. The problem is the typical one, in that it reduces being gay to being about sexual pleasure only, that in a sense, it is like choosing between two different sex toys or something....It doesn't differentiate between a homosexual (or heterosexual) sex act and someone who is heterosexual.

What the idiots don't understand is that there isn't some magic barrier that if you are homosexual, you can't have sex with a woman (if a male), or if straight, couldn't have a homosexual encounter, that isn't what sexual orientation is about.

For example, in a BD/SM scene, a straight male sub could be told to suck off another guy, and he does so because he has been commanded to do it, rather than getting pleasure out of it. Or conversely, a male sub could be told to let another guy suck him off, he would get erect and be able to orgasm, but it is about the physical sensation, he otherwise would not seek out another man, and the sexuality was in being sub and being told what to do....

This post specifically tries to make the point that 'being gay' is having a homosexual sex act, and it is in the same vein. There is what is known as 'situational homosexuality', and it generally happens with what the poster said, where men (or women) are in a same sex environment (like the military, or jail or a british boys boarding school), and they end up having homosexual sex...but that doesn't make them gay (some of them might be gay, some might be latently bi, but most are not). The same guy who is sucking cock in jail or getting fucked (or vice versa) in the outside world woupdn't even think of it, and again, there is nothing to stop a heterosexual man from having homosexual sex acts physically. A gay guy can have sex with a woman, what gay men married to women used to do was fantasize about fucking another guy, or imaginging a guy sucking him off....

The key thing is that being gay is rooted in someone's basic nature, and there is a direct analogy to this. When you fall in love, you don't direct it, you don't sit there and say "I'll fall in love with a 5' 8" blond girl named Sally Smith", you meet Sally Smith and it clicks (or whoever). Heterosexual people don't sit there and say "I am going to love/be attracted to members of the opposite sex", they simply are and they don't choose who they are attracted to or who they fall in love with, same with gays.

To say that someone is gay because they have blue balls and there are no women is frankly one of the more idiotic statements I have seen made, not that is surprises me, because it goes along with the whole idea, especially of the religious right and down in the bible belt, that being gay is about 'lust for hot sex', that it happens because people choose to be gay because they know 'it is a hot time'.....get into a discussion about gay men, and you have some drooling idiot tell you about gay men having thousands of partners, that it is all about lust (which when you cite actual studies, that most gay people have the same number of sexual partners as straight people)...or you point out the behavior of 20 something's in bars on Friday and Saturday night, to boot.....situational homosexual acts are not being gay, being gay is who someone is attracted to and would want to have sex with, not someone they had sex with to get their rocks off in a dire situation, big difference. The analogy here is a goregous woman is horny, hasn't had sex in a while, and gets drunk and ends up in bed with a short, fat balding accountant whose idea of pillow talk is accounting standards, who normally she would not give 5 minutes to,basically someone so horny and needing of sex they would do it with anything they could.

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:37:29 AM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

I'll have to go out and get a new wardrobe.

Here's a look to try for.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:44:09 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Words to live by:

“If you take hyphens seriously, you will surely go mad.”

OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS STYLE MANUAL




You sure that ain't Oscar Wilde? I mean we are talking about homosexuals here.

Mencken couldn't be bothered to do that.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:45:17 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Words to live by:

“If you take hyphens seriously, you will surely go mad.”

OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS STYLE MANUAL


Does it really say that?

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:46:11 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DLZandD

While I agree that farm subsidies should be eliminated (along with the corporate subsidies for non-farm businesses). You should be careful who you tarnish with your big brush. The vast majority of subsidies (farm and otherwise) go to large corporations. Small farmers get nothing but grief from the government. Heck, I can't even shoot the deer eating my vegetables without a visit from two government officials.

There are a lot of benefits big and small farmers get from the government. Most farms have power, and phone service, because the government either paid for it, subsidized it, or forced the companies to wire farms in rural areas. With services like cable and broadband internet connections, there is a raging debate about current legislation changing what ISP's are from being a common carrier to being a service provider (that focuses around charging for access to content providers, charging to get faster speed), and one of the worries is the cable companies and such will abandon rural areas and deny them internet service especially... small farmers in rural areas also like other people living in the area, have roads that are heavily paid for by the federal government, their schools get a larger percentage of funding from federal sources than other places, and so forth.....

And while it is true a lot of those subsidies go to large agribusinesses, by the same token, the farm state voters continually vote to keep the huge subsdies in place, or keep things like the ethanol program or the huge corn subsidies in place that don't benefit them, and this is costing the federal government near 100 billion a year...

The point being that if they really want to cut the federal budget deficit, they would be arguing that farm subsidies, especially if they mostly help huge farm businesses, should be cut, but they yell and scream and hoot and holler that that money is owed to farmers, even if they don't get much of it. For the record, I am not against farm subsidies per se, I would rather that they go to small farmers who are growing healthy food crops rather than it going to ADM and Cargill to produce high fructose corn syrup, or worse, the ethanol boondoggle that has made large corn farms and ADM and Cargill rich at the public trough......and what I am tired of is coming from a place that does subidize other places, having the very people, especially in the farm belt or rural areas, claiming how they pay for everyone else, when they don't, and spouting tea party nonsense.

Look, I live in a state where we get about 65c on the dollar back from the government for every dollar we put in, and as a state we pay high taxes outside the federal government to support programs like medicaid, our roads, our schools, etc, whereas if we had back what we paid in, we would be doing a lot better on local taxes. I just wish that people spouting anti government nonsense, the same people that often spout nonsense about gays and such, would actually take a gander at how much the 'govn'ment' they claim to hate is supporting them as well.

(in reply to DLZandD)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:00:05 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Wrong and wrong.
I might have the tendency to use my left hand and it might be hard wired but I can chose to use my right hand. Tie your right hand behind your back see if you use your left hand. As stated many natural lefties were conditioned as children to change hands and it held through adulthood. So saying it's not possible to change because one hand is false. Would it feel unnatural, would it take awhile to develop the habit? Of course. Would a person be as agile? Doubtful. Would it he healthy? Depends on the person and if it was their idea to want to change it.
Goes with anything. If people desire change and are motivated for change then the success rate increases. If they are opposed success rate declines.
Oh yes and that would include sexual preferences.
Another fact is some people on welfare and food stamps are on them because they are lazy!!! Career welfare families some for generations. Same with disability, people who screw up the system who can work but they put more effort into scamming to get out of work. No honor no integrity and no work ethic. That is not what the system was developed for. It is no mystery people will breed again who have no business having kids to increase their welfare check. The working people have to pay for that and hell the welfare a users have better insurance then the working people. What kind of bs is that?

The system was developed to help people get on their feet not live on it forever. They are the ones sucking the country dry.

So for anyone who doesn't like what I said and are butt hurt, go file disability, you will probably get it.
If you aren't already on it from a back injury 10 years ago that is healed and you wait for your check while talking on here.

That is my substantiated opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

No tip toeing through the tulips here.
Plain and simple, lady or confused person, you have the nerve to disrespect Elmer the farmer, you call them, who not only feed our country but other countries? Your elephant mouth surpasses your canary ass. *snort snort snort*
So you think country people are dumb? They are not full of nonsense like you. They tend to get straight to the point. And they work hard. They don't spend their life trying to learn big words or have a need to think they look smart by googling.

As far as being gay a select few may have a natural tendency to be attracted to the same sex but it is also a choice.
I am left handed, only 10 to 15% of the population is, the majority are men. The percentage of women even smaller. It's my choice to stay left handed but if I choose to be right handed I could be. Btw 4 out of seven presidents have been left handed. It's a fact I could change hands if I wanted.
And southern people are stupid too? Wow, you truly need to wear the dumb cap of the day as someone thumps you on the head with a bible. And fix you some tea during.
Have fun with that opinion.
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

When the Republican party gets out of our bedrooms and back to running a lean government (like they were before Reagan) they will once again be the GRAND old party.

Until then, they'll just be a bunch of Bible thumping dumbasses.


Do you think that'll ever happen, HW?

To me, it's always seemed that the New Right *needs* its ultra-authoritarian, moral side. Without it, its neoliberal side couldn't work, because the neoliberal idea of ultra-freedom has no clear boundaries otherwise. Republican neoliberals love the notion of freedom in the economy - but that's where it must stop. They don't love the idea of freedom for people to - well, use violence to steal from a tycoon who's gained his vast wealth from the free market system - to give an example. And they don't love the idea of freedom for those who'd like to opt out of the free market system altogether.

The trouble is that the good old morals that kept people in check, and made them just *know* that the only real and true freedom was the freedom of the market, started to crumble a long time ago. During the Great War, if not before. Vietnam, it seemed, was the last straw (in your country, at least). Hippy ideas, anarchism, long hair, drop-outs - oh, no, no, no. That is *not* the freedom that should be encouraged. But the old-style conservative line - 'traditional values are always best' - no longer worked. It had been too clearly demonstrated to have been trashed. Nixon was the symbol of it.

So in order to revive that one, narrow idea of freedom as 'the only *real* idea of freedom' - the free market - you'd need a muscular dose of reaction on the social front. Dredge up some 19th century ideas of religion. Hell, dredge up some mediaeval ideas of morals. Whatever it takes to stop people thinking that freedom means anything other than the free market and the large bulk of the people cropping their hair, donning their crisp neat suits and ties and going in to work to keep the bloated billionaires in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed.

All right, rant over. I just wish that whenever some flatulent old twat in government or big in the media utters the word 'freedom', everyone who's watching has developed the tits or testicles to interrogate the meaning of it, that's all. ;-)


It actually is, David Brooks had a piece in the times about it, that conservatives are fighting the tea party stupidity, or worse, the whole ayn Rand cult of the rich that the GOP promotes as reality (ie that the rich create jobs, that there is this incredibly large group of 'parasites' living off the government, the infamous 47% and so forth), and actually coming up with ideas instead of the fruit loop, bible thumping and tea bagger bullshit the party has been running on. Basically, the John Birch society took over the GOP, and the rational conservatives are fighting back. Among other things, they aren't stupid, and they realize that the incredible disparity of wealth going to the very rich, that between the huge tax cuts and the crazy stockholder management we see driving the economy, that the middle class is going to rebel, and I am not talking the morons in the farm belt and down south with their Patriot movement crap, I am talking a middle class that can topple governments and kingdoms, they know that all the arguments about the top .5% being job creators and the like is bullshit, that greed has run rampant, and that the government is not the big problem, that greed is, and that markets don't operate rationally when they let greed drive them.

The GOP is going to need to change, because they have created a monster that is going to fail them. The older white men who make up so much of their base is dying off, and appealing to the farm belt and southerners with a mix of pseudo populism and coded racism isn't going to work. Put it this way, between the tea party and the bible thumpers the GOP has turned of a large majority of young people, and has turned independents against them. Sure, they have their base, but their base has the demographics that Oldsmobile had, and we know where that ended up. They have been riding wedge issues, they have been riding the whole tea party nonsense, they have been riding the education=elitism crap of Sarah Palin, and it is going to fail them, pure and simple. Every tea bagger that gets elected is going to hurt them nationally, and that is where it counts. They may have the south, they may have the farm belt, but guess what, they aren't the country, and by appealing to elmer the farmer (who of course gets nothing from the government *snort*(, or to the unreconstructed George Wallace former supporters, they have turned off young people big time. Put it this way, if young people today start voting, the GOP might be able to take mississippi, but that and a few places like it will be it. People don't like Obama, but his ratings are sky high compared to the GOP's approval ratings.




I don't disprespect elmer the farmer, what I disrespect is the farm state types who get huge benefits from the government, spouting the tea party nonsense how they pay for everyone else...take a look at the size of farm subsidies, then come back and tell me about how they get nothing. The farm states and the red states down south depend on the federal government for their economic health, most states down there get back several dollars for every dollar they send in. A lot of those states depend on federal dollars to fund their schools, they get a lot more money for roads and such then they pay into taxes, and the goes on, medicaid disbursements, medicare, social security, spending on defense, go disproportionately to these areas, and that is a fact. When as part of the budget negotiations to cut federal spending cuts in farm subsidies were put forth, the farm state people, who were all for cutting food stamps for poor people, wanted 10's of billions of dollars of subsidies returned to federal spending. And this, mind you, at a time when commodities prices are at record levels.....

As far as you being left handed, you cannot change what hand is your dominant hand. As much as you try, you won't be able to use your other hand as effectively as you use your dominant one, it is hard wired. Using you non dominant hand to do certain things would be a like a gay guy having sex with a woman, it wouldn't be enjoyable or particularly useful.



It isn't substantiated, the cost of welfare programs and such are a tiny fraction of the real costs to the government. Read the federal budget, I mean actually read it, and take a look. The biggest single costs in the federal budget are outlays for medicare and social security, and they are growing as a percentage of the federal budget at a rapid rate. The next biggie is defense, the US is spending more than the rest of the world combined on defense, around 600 billion a year, and about half of that is not related to true defense needs, but rather that defense spending is a huge subsidy to many parts of this country. The pentagon calls for 10 transport planed, Eric Cantor makes them take 20, because the plane is based in his district. We are building the F35 fighter, at a cost of a billion dolllars a piece, for a threat that doesn't exist, no one has anywhere near what we have today with our current fleet, yet were are building theser to a threat that doesn't exist....do some research on where defense plants are located, won't take a genius to figure out that in some ways, it is a government jobs program for things we don't need. They myth that welfare spending, disability spending, is killing the budget is a myth that anyone who can read a pie chart can see.

The real factor in the budget debacle is that tax revenue has been cut to the very well off since the 1980's but the claimed growth didn't happen that would balance this. Worse, US tax policy favors investment income, which has grown at a rate of 9-10% a year, but didn't bother to pick out the kind of investments that generate jobs and economy growth. While the GDP has floundered, which is directly tied to incomes of those who depend on salaries, investment income has soared, in large part because that is where the returns are, but more importantly, where taxes are lowest. Hedge fund managers, thanks to the tax code, pay 15% tax (nominal) on incomes of millions of dollars a year; CEO's now get paid in stock grants, median CEO pay is now 15 million a year, and thanks to the tax code, much of that is taxed as capital gains. A lot of the money that is made in derivatives trading, in speculative investing, is treated as if it creates capital and job formation, when it doesn't,but it has been given favored status. Put it this way, while the wealth of the meg rich has soared over the past 30+ years, incomes of wage earners has declined, the top1% have seen increases of 9% a year, whereas among everyone else, real wages continue to decline almost every year of that 30+ year period...and that is why we have the problems we do.....

Taxing the rich won't solve all the problems, but creating a tax system that doesn't favor investment over income the way the present mess does would help, as would giving tax incentives to capital formation that creates jobs, not Romney's Bain Consulting that comes into a firm and loses income to the country by having the company send its workforce overseas.

(in reply to chatterbox24)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:06:22 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You are right! We owned a small farm unless your huge you aren't getting any favors. Just the corporations.

Then why pimp the production of those small farms as if they counted?

Even better, why do these small farmers who get nothing from the government, turn out and vote for the politicians who make sure that the subsidies remain in place?Why, when they propose cutting farm subsidies, do all these small farmers yell and scream about how they produce the food we all eat, and without subsidies it would not be affordable? The answer is whether or not the small farmers get help from the government, they most certainly make sure that the subsidies exist, whoever they go to, and it shows that either they are lying, and the subsidies go to them and they are afraid of losing them, or they blindly, like so many in this country, support the politicians that make sure the subsidies don't get cut and also make sure it doesn't go to the small farmers, it has to be one of the two. There was something in the paper earlier this year, when they were proposing to cut 20 billion from farm subsidies, and among farmers in this country 85% opposed those cuts.....assuming few of those subsidies go to small farmers, why did they oppose cutting them?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:11:24 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I don't know of any effective method for changing gender preference. But... If an individual wants to change, why deny them the attempt?

Very simply, because 'reparative therapy' has been shown by the same basis they use for any treatment that it doesn't work, period.

Very simply, you are not responding to what I wrote. Pronouncing a blanket ban against any and all "not officially approved" approaches to the amelioration of a behavior or condition from which an individual may seek relief is pig-headed nonsense. Restricting the claims that providers can make, and the conditions under which they can make them, is perfectly reasonable and in the public interest. But what I asked was, why deny private individuals the freedom to make an attempt if they come across something they feel might work for them? It may only appear to work in some cases, and the data may be scarce, but if the individual is informed and decides it's worth a try, by what right should they be denied the freedom to do so? In my opinion, a far greater danger is the pernicious conceit that there exists a class of "elites" who are invested with the responsibility of protecting the idiot children in their care.

Because if idiots like you insist that such things be offered then other idiots will pressure their children into it. That leads to suicides, runaways and other bad outcomes.


What happened to their body, their choice? Or does that only apply when it's a choice you agree with?

When it isn't their bodies, dumbass.


What else would he have meant by private individuals having the freedom to make an attempt if they come across something they feel might work for them? double dumbass

It sounds all great and good, but a lot of things are regulated that you cannot do to yourself. In many states, even now, if you attempt suicide laws on the books can have you arrested and thrown in jail....

We regulate things people can do to themselves/for themselves, and it is generally based on harm. If you decided heroin was a beauty treatment and bought it, you would be arrested for buying an illegal drug. If you thought that taking laetrile cured cancer, and bough laetrile off the net and used it to treat your cancer, you could be charged with using an illegal drug, even though you believed it could cure you. There were over the counter medicines, that had Ephedra in them, that it is now illegal for someone to buy or use, even if they believe it can help them lose weight.

When a treatment is found to be harmful, proven harmful (as versus ineffective), your right to do with your body as you wish is overridden, that is basic law.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:17:19 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Is there a lot of science backing up the efficacy of gay-to-straight therapies?

Not that I know of, but would you expect there to be? I would expect that only a small portion of gays would want to change, and only a small portion of them would be successful. But that's not the point, is it? Banning even the attempt is an attack on individual freedom and a suppression of science. We should tolerate this why? Ken claims it's necessary, because otherwise parents will inflict misery on their children by forcing them into reparative therapies. But will they? How many parents would do that? And how many would succeed? My parents never had much luck forcing me to do something I didn't want to do.

K.



Talk to gay people who grew up with shithead parents, and you will hear what Ken is talking about. It is a bit different between a parent trying to get a kid to eat broccolli or go visit Aunt Edna and her 60 cats, and something like reparative therapy. Tell me, what would you do if you saw a parent who believed that the way to make a kid strong was to douse him in cold water and make him stand outside in cold weather for a half hour every day (and yes, virginia, that once was a method some believed would make a child grow up strong)? You would probably call the local authorities and have the parents charged with child abuse....and it is much the same idea with reparative therapy, that the 'treatment' is basically an attempt at brain washing and worse (they use questionable methods, like showing the kid a picture of a same sex partner, asking if the kid is attracted to the picture, then slapping the kid and telling him to expel the devil, or using drugs)....you say your parents weren't good at getting you to do things, but you also likely had parents who didn't try to get you to eat brocolli by slapping you or making you go into a dark closet until you 'changed your mind', can't say the same thing about many anti gay parents.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:28:36 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Does it really say that?

I've seen the quote far and wide, but must confess I haven't held the OUP manual in my own hands.

Just read:

An old Oxford University Press style guide once offered the following sage advice: "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad."

http://www.ragan.com/WritingEditing/Articles/When_you_should151and_should_not151use_a_hyphen__43630.aspx

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 160
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