Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun

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angelikaJ -> Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 7:06:57 PM)
I heard this today and thought he asks some thoughtful questions. The discussion begins with the topic of Joseph Robert Wilcox: "In video games, you're supposed to decide—in an instant—who to shoot and who to spare. There's the bad guy with the bag of money that he stole from the bank. Shoot him and you might earn a few points. But there's also the surprise pop-up—the grandmother. Shoot her and your score goes down. In real life, those calculations don't always add up so easily. It was a calculation that shooter Joseph Robert Wilcox recently made when he tried to stop Jerad Miller, a man who killed a cop in a Las Vegas Walmart a few weeks back. Wilcox was armed—he saw Miller and believed he had the opportunity to intervene. But he didn't notice a smaller woman standing by, with a shopping cart and a handbag. That was Miller's wife Amanda, and she too was armed; in an instant, she shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox was supposed to be one of the good guys, but owning a gun may have cost him his life." http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/challenges-good-guy-gun/ http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306

BamaD -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 7:28:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ I heard this today and thought he asks some thoughtful questions. The discussion begins with the topic of Joseph Robert Wilcox: "In video games, you're supposed to decide—in an instant—who to shoot and who to spare. There's the bad guy with the bag of money that he stole from the bank. Shoot him and you might earn a few points. But there's also the surprise pop-up—the grandmother. Shoot her and your score goes down. In real life, those calculations don't always add up so easily. It was a calculation that shooter Joseph Robert Wilcox recently made when he tried to stop Jerad Miller, a man who killed a cop in a Las Vegas Walmart a few weeks back. Wilcox was armed—he saw Miller and believed he had the opportunity to intervene. But he didn't notice a smaller woman standing by, with a shopping cart and a handbag. That was Miller's wife Amanda, and she too was armed; in an instant, she shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox was supposed to be one of the good guys, but owning a gun may have cost him his life." http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/challenges-good-guy-gun/ http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306 Both sites are anti gun and put the spin on it you would expect. When you carry you have to accept the risk that you may be shot. As one person pointed out in the first post there are dozens of crimes stopped with guns that are never mentioned on sites like the takeaway and they made no attempt whatsoever to present a balanced view.

angelikaJ -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 7:43:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ I heard this today and thought he asks some thoughtful questions. The discussion begins with the topic of Joseph Robert Wilcox: "In video games, you're supposed to decide—in an instant—who to shoot and who to spare. There's the bad guy with the bag of money that he stole from the bank. Shoot him and you might earn a few points. But there's also the surprise pop-up—the grandmother. Shoot her and your score goes down. In real life, those calculations don't always add up so easily. It was a calculation that shooter Joseph Robert Wilcox recently made when he tried to stop Jerad Miller, a man who killed a cop in a Las Vegas Walmart a few weeks back. Wilcox was armed—he saw Miller and believed he had the opportunity to intervene. But he didn't notice a smaller woman standing by, with a shopping cart and a handbag. That was Miller's wife Amanda, and she too was armed; in an instant, she shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox was supposed to be one of the good guys, but owning a gun may have cost him his life." http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/challenges-good-guy-gun/ http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306 Both sites are anti gun and put the spin on it you would expect. When you carry you have to accept the risk that you may be shot. As one person pointed out in the first post there are dozens of crimes stopped with guns that are never mentioned on sites like the takeaway and they made no attempt whatsoever to present a balanced view. How can a man who's had a concealed carry permit since he was 21, who has been around firearms all of his life, be "anti gun"? "You don't bring a gun to a fistfight. You don't wave it or brandish it in a threatening manner, because guns rarely de-escalate a situation. And you don't shoot someone just because you're scared." His point is that the focus is heavily on the rights to own guns, and there is very little discussion on the actual responsibilities that come from the complex situations "Good guys with guns" may face. "Say I shoot someone, and I'm fully within my rights to do it. How do I even present myself and my weapon to the cops in a way that doesn't alarm them and endanger me? How do I know the difference between an active shooter and a plainclothes police officer?"... "...I leave it to you, because I still puzzle in my mind over all the tactical difficulties posed by someone in civilian clothes carrying a gun during a shooting. (How do you telegraph your goodness to the cops and bystanders?)" Personally, I don't think asking those questions should make him a bad guy to gun enthusiasts. If it does, if his asking those questions makes him an automatic outcast (as you would have him be) then it makes me wonder how responsible are most "responsible gun owners" to begin with?

BamaD -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 8:31:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ I heard this today and thought he asks some thoughtful questions. The discussion begins with the topic of Joseph Robert Wilcox: "In video games, you're supposed to decide—in an instant—who to shoot and who to spare. There's the bad guy with the bag of money that he stole from the bank. Shoot him and you might earn a few points. But there's also the surprise pop-up—the grandmother. Shoot her and your score goes down. In real life, those calculations don't always add up so easily. It was a calculation that shooter Joseph Robert Wilcox recently made when he tried to stop Jerad Miller, a man who killed a cop in a Las Vegas Walmart a few weeks back. Wilcox was armed—he saw Miller and believed he had the opportunity to intervene. But he didn't notice a smaller woman standing by, with a shopping cart and a handbag. That was Miller's wife Amanda, and she too was armed; in an instant, she shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox was supposed to be one of the good guys, but owning a gun may have cost him his life." http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/challenges-good-guy-gun/ http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306 Both sites are anti gun and put the spin on it you would expect. When you carry you have to accept the risk that you may be shot. As one person pointed out in the first post there are dozens of crimes stopped with guns that are never mentioned on sites like the takeaway and they made no attempt whatsoever to present a balanced view. How can a man who's had a concealed carry permit since he was 21, who has been around firearms all of his life, be "anti gun"? "You don't bring a gun to a fistfight. You don't wave it or brandish it in a threatening manner, because guns rarely de-escalate a situation. And you don't shoot someone just because you're scared." His point is that the focus is heavily on the rights to own guns, and there is very little discussion on the actual responsibilities that come from the complex situations "Good guys with guns" may face. "Say I shoot someone, and I'm fully within my rights to do it. How do I even present myself and my weapon to the cops in a way that doesn't alarm them and endanger me? How do I know the difference between an active shooter and a plainclothes police officer?"... "...I leave it to you, because I still puzzle in my mind over all the tactical difficulties posed by someone in civilian clothes carrying a gun during a shooting. (How do you telegraph your goodness to the cops and bystanders?)" Personally, I don't think asking those questions should make him a bad guy to gun enthusiasts. If it does, if his asking those questions makes him an automatic outcast (as you would have him be) then it makes me wonder how responsible are most "responsible gun owners" to begin with? You misunderstand, hopefully unintentionally. First I never said he was anti gun. Second he is wrong, I have defused multiple situations with firearms. Third when the cops show up your firearm should not be aimed at them, on the ground would be good. You don't bring a gun to a fistfight but when a man sees he has brought a knife to a gunfight he loses interest real fast. This is personal experience, not theory. He has every right to ask the questions but don't others have the right to refute them without being labeled an irresponsible gun nut? I don't want this to deteriorate into name calling so I have to ask why you didn't post this thread in the more civil P&R section.

BamaD -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 8:38:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ I heard this today and thought he asks some thoughtful questions. The discussion begins with the topic of Joseph Robert Wilcox: "In video games, you're supposed to decide—in an instant—who to shoot and who to spare. There's the bad guy with the bag of money that he stole from the bank. Shoot him and you might earn a few points. But there's also the surprise pop-up—the grandmother. Shoot her and your score goes down. In real life, those calculations don't always add up so easily. It was a calculation that shooter Joseph Robert Wilcox recently made when he tried to stop Jerad Miller, a man who killed a cop in a Las Vegas Walmart a few weeks back. Wilcox was armed—he saw Miller and believed he had the opportunity to intervene. But he didn't notice a smaller woman standing by, with a shopping cart and a handbag. That was Miller's wife Amanda, and she too was armed; in an instant, she shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox was supposed to be one of the good guys, but owning a gun may have cost him his life." http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/challenges-good-guy-gun/ http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306 Both sites are anti gun and put the spin on it you would expect. When you carry you have to accept the risk that you may be shot. As one person pointed out in the first post there are dozens of crimes stopped with guns that are never mentioned on sites like the takeaway and they made no attempt whatsoever to present a balanced view. How can a man who's had a concealed carry permit since he was 21, who has been around firearms all of his life, be "anti gun"? "You don't bring a gun to a fistfight. You don't wave it or brandish it in a threatening manner, because guns rarely de-escalate a situation. And you don't shoot someone just because you're scared." His point is that the focus is heavily on the rights to own guns, and there is very little discussion on the actual responsibilities that come from the complex situations "Good guys with guns" may face. "Say I shoot someone, and I'm fully within my rights to do it. How do I even present myself and my weapon to the cops in a way that doesn't alarm them and endanger me? How do I know the difference between an active shooter and a plainclothes police officer?"... "...I leave it to you, because I still puzzle in my mind over all the tactical difficulties posed by someone in civilian clothes carrying a gun during a shooting. (How do you telegraph your goodness to the cops and bystanders?)" Personally, I don't think asking those questions should make him a bad guy to gun enthusiasts. If it does, if his asking those questions makes him an automatic outcast (as you would have him be) then it makes me wonder how responsible are most "responsible gun owners" to begin with? I see you ignored the leftist ant gun mantras of a good guy with a gun is one till he goes on a shooting spree. And it is a wonder that another armed gun owner didn't mistakenly shoot him. One reasonable person doesn't mean the site isn't anti gun.

TheHeretic -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 9:46:46 PM)
The mall shooting at the Clackamas Town Center in Portland Oregon was ended by an armed civilian who got involved. He couldn't even get a clear shot, but simply putting the red dot of a laser sight on the shooter was enough to send that killer running to hide, then commit suicide. Funny how that part of the story didn't make it into very much of the media coverage at all...

BamaD -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 9:49:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The mall shooting at the Clackamas Town Center in Portland Oregon was ended by an armed civilian who got involved. He couldn't even get a clear shot, but simply putting the red dot of a laser sight on the shooter was enough to send that killer running to hide, then commit suicide. Funny how that part of the story didn't make it into very much of the media coverage at all... Par for the course. I had someone assure me that the red dot had nothing to do with it. That he committed suicide because one of his guns jammed. Shows the lengths some people will go to.

Kirata -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/18/2014 9:53:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Funny how that part of the story didn't make it into very much of the media coverage at all... It also escapes notice that the dearth of armed civilians stopping mass shootings is because when they do there isn't one. K.

joether -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 1:54:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Funny how that part of the story didn't make it into very much of the media coverage at all... It also escapes notice that the dearth of armed civilians stopping mass shootings is because when they do there isn't one. Yes, once Wilcox was dead, the shooters stop targeting the people in Wal-Mart. Maybe the Wal-Marts around you are deserted for the most part. In my area, they are fairly full of people. Even in the first minute, there would still be people lurking about and in hiding. Those two could have continued the rampage. But they didn't, why? If there had been other CCW holders, why did they not engage the evil-doers? Wilcox's problem? He failed situational awareness, or, taking in the full scale of events before acting upon them. Was he a hero? No, he was a target that was eliminated. Not an intentional target (like the officers eating pizza), but one that posed a threat. I find when the news reports armed citizens using said arms during a hostile few moments; it gets either nullified or embellished depending on one's personal point of view. Those that wish to restrict/ban firearms in the nation will try to undermine the case. Were as those pushing gun-rights will place the scene in the most positive light. Mr. Wilcox saw an attacker with a firearm, drew his arm and was in the process of engaging the target when he himself was eliminated from behind. The most disturbing part of this, is not the shooting itself, but the individuals that attacked backstory, and what they did immediately after killing the police officers. That both of them were at the Bundy ranch a few weeks prior, and placed the Gadsden Flag on one of the officers. This was not the work/effort of some kid having a hellish life filled with mental/emotional problems; but of two individuals that wanted to make a real 'in your face' political statement. So who are the good guys in this? The police/government that locked the area down and made sure the threat was truly neutralized.

DomKen -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 5:52:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Third when the cops show up your firearm should not be aimed at them, on the ground would be good. And that is where things get complicated. You assume that you will see the cops arrive and that the violence will be over. If that isn't the case...

joether -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 1:42:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Third when the cops show up your firearm should not be aimed at them, on the ground would be good. And that is where things get complicated. You assume that you will see the cops arrive and that the violence will be over. If that isn't the case... ...Better have that death insurance policy paid up and current. Those cops will see some guy waving a gun around, think, "That's the gunman" and drop him under a hail of gunfire. Or worst, some CCW holder does not observe the initial situation, rounds the corner, see's the first CCW holder firing on someone, and shots him/her in the back....then the cops....drop him. An who is to say a CCW holder is not part of the actual plan? Waiting to see if there are any 'heroes' that try to react to the original situation and eliminate them before joining their friends in the mayhem. .

Musicmystery -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 1:48:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD no attempt whatsoever to present a balanced view. And a "balanced view" is that we only kill so many innocent people in our rootin' tootin' gun-totin' mania? [8\|]

Searcher916 -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 2:12:47 PM)
BamaD said "Second he is wrong, I have defused multiple situations with firearms." What exactly were the situations? Could you please describe in detail what happened?

Musicmystery -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 2:38:54 PM)
[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-U724b4ggCGk/Udixgb4Fh7I/AAAAAAAADVc/bIiOfoAkr0k/s1600/clayton+moore+lone+ranger+silver.jpg[/image]

PeonForHer -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 3:45:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD no attempt whatsoever to present a balanced view. And a "balanced view" is that we only kill so many innocent people in our rootin' tootin' gun-totin' mania? [8\|] Yes - it is. It reminds me of an old line used by the CND here: "How many nuclear bombs do you want to fall on Britain? As many as possible, a moderate amount, or none at all? Yes, I'm an extremist and happy to be so." 'Moderation in all things - including the list of things about which you'll be moderate.'

HunterS -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 4:05:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Wilcox was armed—he saw Miller and believed he had the opportunity to intervene. But he didn't notice a smaller woman standing by, with a shopping cart and a handbag. That was Miller's wife Amanda, and she too was armed; in an instant, she shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox was supposed to be one of the good guys, but owning a gun may have cost him his life." I am unsure what makes Wilcox a good guy. He went out in public armed. Certainly this is not illegal. Why was Wilcox armed in public? Most of us have the ability to go armed in public why did Wilcox go armed when nearly everyone else did not? Wilcox chose to go armed in public so that he migh insert himself into any public strife where a gun would give him an advantage. How did he not suffer the consequences for which he set himself up?

Musicmystery -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 4:07:33 PM)
Seriously? So it all worked out as it should? [8\|]

HunterS -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 4:11:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Seriously? So it all worked out as it should? [8\|] Three gunslinging fools tits up on a slab...just three more assholes I don't ever have to deal with.

Musicmystery -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 4:14:24 PM)
Ah yes . . . the right to take a gun anywhere trumps the right of innocent people to be alive. So much for the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness the Declaration of Independence hoped for.

BamaD -> RE: Rights and Responsibilities; Being a Good Guy with a Gun (6/19/2014 4:21:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Third when the cops show up your firearm should not be aimed at them, on the ground would be good. And that is where things get complicated. You assume that you will see the cops arrive and that the violence will be over. If that isn't the case... If that isn't the case, although it will be 99.9% of the time, you drop your gun and lay on the ground.

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