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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/23/2014 5:51:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		So people in Gaza do have a legal right to self defence (provided they target legitimate targets) under international law.


Like school buses?
Hamas doesn't go after legitimate targets, never has, never will.
To them any Israeli is a "legitimate" target.

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Profile   Post #: 181
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/23/2014 5:59:05 PM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Failed presidential candidate John Kerry let slip the Obama regime's feelings of animosity toward our greatest ally in the region

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 3:42:34 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

The way the question is framed assumes that Hamas' rockets are unprovoked and the sole cause of the violence - in my view a completely false assumption. As I pointed out in post #84, Palestinians are forced to suffer Israeli violence everyday relentlessly.


DesideriScuri
As you stated in Post#84. You offered no links or proof of your statements, so you really didn't "point out" the relentless violence.

To be honest DS, I have supplied so much evidence and so many links here over time that I didn't think any open minded person needed convincing of the extent of Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing any more. However since you asked for it, here is a tiny portion of the available evidence:

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has published weekly reports on human rights abuses in Occupied Palestine for some years now. This is the latest report:
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10489:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-03-09-july-2014&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183
You will find weekly reports covering the period 2009-2014 here:
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=84&Itemid=183

Defence for Children International (DCI) is an independent NGO dedicated to children's rights and eliminating ill treatment and abuse of children everywhere. The Palestine section of its website contains numerous accounts of child abuse, torture kidnapping and killings by the IDF and settlers. Here's one DCI report documenting IDF and settlers terrorising Palestinian children.
http://www.dci-palestine.org/documents/palestinian-schoolchildren-terrorized-settler-vigilantes-soldiers
There are innumerable other reports at the website detailing Israeli abuse of Palestinian children.

These two sites contain enough evidence to convince any open minded person of the relentless nature and volume of Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians in Occupied Palestine. Especially when taken in conjunction with evidence from the B'Tselem site: www.btselem.org the totality of the evidence is overwhelming and incontestable. However should you fail to be persuaded by these three, please let me know. There are several more mountains of evidence available and I'll be happy to point you in their direction.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/24/2014 4:19:13 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 7:12:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
....If the PA is a sovereign state then its military must wear uniforms that identify it as such, directly from the 3rd GC, failing to do so strips them of all protections...
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution#Exceptions_to_prisoners_of_war_status

Actually, it says no such thing.
What it does say is... "According to Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, irregular forces are entitled to prisoner of war status provided that they are commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly..." - so a uniform is NOT necessary as long as there is a distinctive sign.
It does mention that it needs to be recognizable "at a distance" - but how far is that to qualify?? 10 yards? half a mile? Viewable from Hubble?
I would classify the Hamas rebels as an irregular force under the 3rd GC.

What sign do they wear? In the field where are their leaders? When did they start carrying arms openly?
Hamas fails every one of the tests.

No it doesn't fail the tests.
It can be construed that their distinctive headgear is their insignia.
However, as reported in LA Times, most of the Hamas troops wear black uniforms... "The gunmen escorting the loader wore black uniforms typical of Hamas' Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade, a group that fires missiles at Israel".
Source: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/26/world/fg-gaza26/2
Their leaders do not have to be "in the field" with them - they just need a person responsible for their actions as a leader (Khaled Meshaal).
And if you watched some unbiased news, pretty much most of the Hamas rebels openly walk in the streets of Gaza carrying arms.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/middleeast/gaza-israel.html
    quote:

    Eight Palestinian militants emerged from a tunnel some 300 yards inside Israel on Saturday morning, armed with automatic weapons and wearing Israeli military uniforms, the Israeli military said. The gunmen fired a rocket-propelled grenade at two Israeli military jeeps on patrol, starting a battle that killed two Israeli officers and one of the militants, according to the military. The rest then retreated underground, back to Gaza.




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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 7:17:37 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		FR -

Should we blame this one on Bush, or Israel

quote:

Isis 'orders female genital mutilation' for women in Mosul

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434


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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 7:23:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

quote:

The way the question is framed assumes that Hamas' rockets are unprovoked and the sole cause of the violence - in my view a completely false assumption. As I pointed out in post #84, Palestinians are forced to suffer Israeli violence everyday relentlessly.

DesideriScuri
As you stated in Post#84. You offered no links or proof of your statements, so you really didn't "point out" the relentless violence.

To be honest DS, I have supplied so much evidence and so many links here over time that I didn't think any open minded person needed convincing of the extent of Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing any more. However since you asked for it, here is a tiny portion of the available evidence:
The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has published weekly reports on human rights abuses in Occupied Palestine for some years now. This is the latest report:
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10489:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-03-09-july-2014&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183
You will find weekly reports covering the period 2009-2014 here:
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=84&Itemid=183
Defence for Children International (DCI) is an independent NGO dedicated to children's rights and eliminating ill treatment and abuse of children everywhere. The Palestine section of its website contains numerous accounts of child abuse, torture kidnapping and killings by the IDF and settlers. Here's one DCI report documenting IDF and settlers terrorising Palestinian children.
http://www.dci-palestine.org/documents/palestinian-schoolchildren-terrorized-settler-vigilantes-soldiers
There are innumerable other reports at the website detailing Israeli abuse of Palestinian children.
These two sites contain enough evidence to convince any open minded person of the relentless nature and volume of Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians in Occupied Palestine. Especially when taken in conjunction with evidence from the B'Tselem site: www.btselem.org the totality of the evidence is overwhelming and incontestable. However should you fail to be persuaded by these three, please let me know. There are several more mountains of evidence available and I'll be happy to point you in their direction.


Now it's all for the children?

How do you rectify this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uwyqn8urA

Firing from densely populated areas? From residential areas? Is Israel just supposed to sit back and let it happen because they can't kill any civilians? When does the responsibility for some of this stuff start to fall on Hamas?


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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Help for the truly needy
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  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 7:34:14 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		You asked for proof of relentless Israeli violence.

You have been given it. If it is insufficient please let me know and I will supply more. It's not like there's any shortage of it.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 7:38:59 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You asked for proof of relentless Israeli violence.
You have been given it. If it is insufficient please let me know and I will supply more. It's not like there's any shortage of it.


Where were the links to the stories verifying all that?

Or, are people just supposed to accept their account?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 7:48:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

These two sites contain enough evidence to convince any open minded person of the relentless nature and volume of Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians in Occupied Palestine. Especially when taken in conjunction with evidence from the B'Tselem site: www.btselem.org the totality of the evidence is overwhelming and incontestable. However should you fail to be persuaded by these three, please let me know. There are several more mountains of evidence available and I'll be happy to point you in their direction.

Israel has occupied the West Bank since 1968. If they intended to ethnically cleanse the territory they could have long since finished the job. Making claims that are obviously false undermines you position.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 8:54:18 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas famously does not wear uniforms when they attack Israel. You will not find any claims otherwise.

Yes, they must have a command structure in the field. That is what that section means. It means the unit on the battlefield must have a command structure so that there is a leader to deal with.

And no Hamas does not openly carry their arms. If they did it would not be so difficult for Israel to end them. Hamas famously attacks from under civilian attire and from inside civilian structures.

If you are arguing that Gaza is a sovereign state then Hamas as the government must separate its military from the civilian population. Launching any attack on another state from inside a civilian area is a war crime. Functionally everything Hamas does militarily is illegal, it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas. It is forbidden to launch attacks from civilian areas. It is forbidden for a military force to shelter in a civilian populace.

So why is it that when these typical Hamas Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade are found, they just happen to usually be wearing black when most of the populace around them are wearing lots of colour?
I'm not saying that all Hamas wear black because it is obvious from the news bulletins they many often don't wear any uniforms and I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

And who says Hamas must separate it's military from the civilians??
AFAIK, the Hamas rebels are civilians - they do not form a proper 'army' at all - that's why they are an 'irregular' force.
And where does it say that it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas??
Also, where is it stated that a military force is forbidden to shelter in the civilian populace??
Isn't it exactly these that are happening (and have happened) in just about every modern war in the last century or so??


I don't agree with Hamas or their methods and I'm just as disgusted with what Israel is doing too.
Just trying to spin a different PoV from a different angle.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So everyone with an Arab headdress can be considered a combatant.

What a stupid assertion!!
The headdresses worn by different factions, religions, and authority levels are quite different from each other.
I don't know the difference myself but I am reliably informed by local Islamics and Arabs that there is indeed a very significant difference. It's apparently the equivalent of the different pips and stars/stripes and shoulder garnish worn by various levels of our military forces.


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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 9:23:05 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

FR -

Should we blame this one on Bush, or Israel

quote:

Isis 'orders female genital mutilation' for women in Mosul

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434


Don't be silly, Arabs are doing this so both Bush and Israel are at fault.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 9:28:04 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another way to put that is so they can use the civilians as shields.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 9:30:27 AM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You asked for proof of relentless Israeli violence.

You have been given it. If it is insufficient please let me know and I will supply more. It's not like there's any shortage of it.



I can't speak for DS but I never doubted your ability to provide links to Israeli violence. It's getting you to see the other side that seems to be the problem.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 9:35:13 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know the difference myself but I am reliably informed by local Islamics and Arabs that there is indeed a very significant difference. It's apparently the equivalent of the different pips and stars/stripes and shoulder garnish worn by various levels of our military forces.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

These people are as well informed as the ones who assured you that there is no place in the US that you can drive over 40mph?
Did they also tell you how easy they are to tell apart in the middle of a firefight?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 10:11:10 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another way to put that is so they can use the civilians as shields.

Typical dense response I've come to expect from you.
Much like your stance on a confrontation - you always have to win rather than just disarm the opposition and walk away.

Being similarly attired and hiding amongst the populace is far different from using the populace as shields.
Or can't you see the difference??



quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
These people are as well informed as the ones who assured you that there is no place in the US that you can drive over 40mph?

What the fuck has this to do with the price of chips???
And, the comment I made in that post was from personal observations in the area that I was living in - not by people telling me.

Irrelevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Did they also tell you how easy they are to tell apart in the middle of a firefight?

Nope. Why should they??
I don't follow their religion and I don't live there - so why would I need to know??
As long as the people involved know the difference, that's all that counts.
Apparently, those that know can tell from quite a distance. It's all to do with the colour and design of the headdress and the size/colour of the headband holding it in place.

And before you ask, yes, some of their relatives live out there and are caught up in this mess.


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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 10:18:27 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

FR -

Should we blame this one on Bush, or Israel

quote:

Isis 'orders female genital mutilation' for women in Mosul

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434


Don't be silly, Arabs are doing this so both Bush and Israel are at fault.


Can't have anything to do with Barack refusing Iraq's requests for airstrikes on ISIS as they advanced on Mosul

That's just crazy talk

Besides, Barack had very important fundraisers and tee times to attend to

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 10:52:10 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		While the nutsackers nutsacked.

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 11:00:18 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

FR -

Should we blame this one on Bush, or Israel

quote:

Isis 'orders female genital mutilation' for women in Mosul

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434



FR....... more bullshit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28466434

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 11:04:21 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

FR -

Should we blame this one on Bush, or Israel

quote:

Isis 'orders female genital mutilation' for women in Mosul

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434


Don't be silly, Arabs are doing this so both Bush and Israel are at fault.


Can't have anything to do with Barack refusing Iraq's requests for airstrikes on ISIS as they advanced on Mosul

That's just crazy talk

Besides, Barack had very important fundraisers and tee times to attend to


Lmfao, two posts from those previously shouting loudest to halt US involvement in Iraq (but only since Obama became president)

Neither of you have the brains to work out part of this crisis was indeed caused by Bush and Blair, yet here you are with a complete about turn.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 11:09:00 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Okay. so one vote for blaming Bush...

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Profile   Post #: 200
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