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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/24/2014 10:02:29 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Is it even physically and tactically possible for Hamas to fire its rockets at a distance from civilians? As I understand it, Gaza is mostly urban, anyway; moreover, it's very densely packed. If Hamas were to fire them from out in the deserts, they'd be picked up by Israel's state of the art surveillance - possibly even before they'd got to the firing area. If you were a general in Hamas, where would you deploy your rocket-firing teams?



I guess that depends on whether or not you care if innocent kids get killed. In this case I think they are hoping kids get killed because they think that will win people over to their cause. Funny that you seem to support it after all your cracks about gun crazy americans and how blood thirsty they are.


I would only 'seem to support it' to a cretin, THB. Two nights ago I saw a news report on a baby that was covered in burns after an Israeli missile attack. I wish I hadn't. The perversity of the claim that this is 'photogenic' beggars belief.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 2:24:42 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah. We have to kill people in the proper manner.




You miss the point. i couldnt care less if this was an out and out attack on terorists, but it isnt, not by a long way.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 2:26:13 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There is only one solution MM, both sides must talk, both sides are intransigent so as per usual fuck all will happen.

If both sides are intransigent, talking won't accomplish anything. First, at least one side has to become persuaded that its best interest lies in being less intransigent. Currently, neither side holds such a view.

K.





Yes K, thats what I meant when I said "Fuck all will happen"

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 2:29:07 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		"Israel is consistently accused of all kinds of stuff by people who are full of shit. I've already demonstrated that by international law Hamas is the guilty party in Gaza."

I am unsure how you can keep a straight face, try reading about international law and attacks on civillians.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 2:43:10 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I have already shown that by the 3rd Geneva Convention which is the prevailing international law on the handling of illegal combatants summary execution of Hamas prisoners is completely legal.

And I showed from that very same document and also from the Rules of War that Israel cannot do that without a competent tribunal.
The Rules of War dictate that the prisoner has to be proven to be an illegal combatant before you can summarily execute them. Until that is proven by "a competent tribunal", they have the normal protection of a PoW.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Israel is consistently accused of all kinds of stuff by people who are full of shit. I've already demonstrated that by international law Hamas is the guilty party in Gaza.

And Israel have previously admitted that they have used Palestinians as humans shields in previous conflicts from 2001 and they are currently under investigation by the UN for the same thing - again!


They are both as bad as each other IMHO.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 7/25/2014 2:50:18 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 2:52:16 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

"Israel is consistently accused of all kinds of stuff by people who are full of shit. I've already demonstrated that by international law Hamas is the guilty party in Gaza."

I am unsure how you can keep a straight face, try reading about international law and attacks on civillians.

Because by the letter of those treaties it is the party that shelters in the civilian population and the party that launches attacks from inside the civilian population that is guilty of the war crime not the one who attacks them. You are welcome to look into it.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:27:44 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Is it possible to be more ignorant about international law.

When acting in self defence your actions have to be proportional.



Nope. No where in the UN charter or the relevant Geneva Conventions is there such a requirement. If a nation is attacked it can unleash its full fury on the attacker.


It is an absolutely established legal principle that self defence must be proportional. You're wrong on this. This is international law, created by precedent between the USA and the British (see the Caroline case)

If it is not proportional, it ceases to be self-defence and becomes "offence".


You are mistaken. The Caroline test is about preemptive self defense. IOW attacking first when you are about to be attacked. Then the attack must be proportional to the threat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_test

It has absolutely no bearing if a state is actually attacked. In that case no holds barred.


Nope, you're the mistaken one. The Caroline test asserts two notions, the first is necessity the second proportionality.

Google more.

Start with http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/br-1842d.asp

Pay attention to...

" the act justified by the necessity of self-defence, must be limited by that necessity, and kept clearly within it. It must be strewn that admonition or remonstrance to the persons on board the "Caroline" was impracticable, or would have been unavailing; it must be strewn that daylight could not be waited for; that there could be no attempt at discrimination, between the innocent and the guilty; that it would not have been enough to seize and detain the vessel; but that there was a necessity, present and inevitable, for attacking her, in the darkness of the night, while moored to the shore, and while unarmed men were asleep on board, killing some, and wounding others, and then drawing her into the current, above the cataract, setting her on fire, and, careless to know whether there might not be in her the innocent with the guilty, or the living with the dead, committing her to a fate, which fills the imagination with horror. A necessity for an this, the Government of the United States cannot believe to have existed."

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:35:24 AM   
Musicmystery


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:36:18 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah. We have to kill people in the proper manner.




You miss the point. i couldnt care less if this was an out and out attack on terorists, but it isnt, not by a long way.



You can't admit the turth even to yourself that this IS an attack on terrorists

Lucky for us all that Israel draws their fire. If Israel is ever wiped off the map per observant Muslim's wet dreams (and yours too, apparently), it will be every other non-Muslims turn to be subject to their holy war

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:36:48 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Is it even physically and tactically possible for Hamas to fire its rockets at a distance from civilians? As I understand it, Gaza is mostly urban, anyway; moreover, it's very densely packed. If Hamas were to fire them from out in the deserts, they'd be picked up by Israel's state of the art surveillance - possibly even before they'd got to the firing area. If you were a general in Hamas, where would you deploy your rocket-firing teams?



I guess that depends on whether or not you care if innocent kids get killed. In this case I think they are hoping kids get killed because they think that will win people over to their cause. Funny that you seem to support it after all your cracks about gun crazy americans and how blood thirsty they are.


I would only 'seem to support it' to a cretin, THB. Two nights ago I saw a news report on a baby that was covered in burns after an Israeli missile attack. I wish I hadn't. The perversity of the claim that this is 'photogenic' beggars belief.


then why do you keep coming up with excuses on why they do it?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:45:15 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
You can't admit the turth even to yourself that this IS an attack on terrorists

And who are these "terrorists"???

Hamas and other rebels are fighting an oppressor who is not only attacking their country but also holding them under siege and have been for the past 8 years or so.

I don't like Hamas or what they are doing; but Israel isn't all sweet and innocent in this mess.


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Profile   Post #: 231
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:49:14 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Hamas and other rebels are fighting an oppressor who is not only attacking their country but also holding them under siege and have been for the past 8 years or so.

I don't like Hamas or what they are doing; but Israel isn't all sweet and innocent in this mess.



Israel is attacking to stop the terrorists' rockets from raining down on their civilian population

Its that simple



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:57:46 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Is it even physically and tactically possible for Hamas to fire its rockets at a distance from civilians? As I understand it, Gaza is mostly urban, anyway; moreover, it's very densely packed. If Hamas were to fire them from out in the deserts, they'd be picked up by Israel's state of the art surveillance - possibly even before they'd got to the firing area. If you were a general in Hamas, where would you deploy your rocket-firing teams?



I guess that depends on whether or not you care if innocent kids get killed. In this case I think they are hoping kids get killed because they think that will win people over to their cause. Funny that you seem to support it after all your cracks about gun crazy americans and how blood thirsty they are.


I would only 'seem to support it' to a cretin, THB. Two nights ago I saw a news report on a baby that was covered in burns after an Israeli missile attack. I wish I hadn't. The perversity of the claim that this is 'photogenic' beggars belief.


then why do you keep coming up with excuses on why they do it?


It would only appear that I keep coming up with excuses on why they do it to a cretin, THB. I hope that clears this up for you.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:58:35 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Hamas and other rebels are fighting an oppressor who is not only attacking their country but also holding them under siege and have been for the past 8 years or so.

I don't like Hamas or what they are doing; but Israel isn't all sweet and innocent in this mess.



Israel is attacking to stop the terrorists' rockets from raining down on their civilian population

Its that simple



Oh right.

In recent weeks Israel suffers 34 deaths - 32 military, 2 civilians.
The Palestinians suffer over 800 deaths - more than 77% of them civilians (176 of them were children).
Hamas is fighting to get an 8-year blockade removed and retaliate against Israel's sledge-hammer-to-a-peanut style of war.

Who is playing the war game within the rules. Huh??
I'm not saying Hamas is innocent but given the proportional casualties, I think Israel is the worst of the two.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 5:59:27 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
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Status: offline 		How many people have been killed by rockets?

How many people have been killed by the IDF?

It is really that simple.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 6:00:10 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		Because your terrorist friends hide behind women and children

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 6:00:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
The Palestinians suffer over 800 deaths ...


Jesus, is it 800 now? Already?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 6:30:58 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
The Palestinians suffer over 800 deaths ...


Jesus, is it 800 now? Already?

I just checked the BBC News prior to posting this....
Palestinians: over 800. 19 of them just today. [ETA: today hasn't ended yet!!]
Israel: now 35 as of 14:23 UK time.

Last night, Israel attacked a bunch of Palestinian homes and killed 13 people (of which 5 were children).
They were warned to vacate the area but didn't have time so they fled to a local UN protected school.
Israel warned that the school was going to be attacked so they fled to the local hospital.
As the Palestinians were entering the hospital, the school was blown up (the 4th is as many days) and within moments an Israeli missile exploded at the hospital gates.
The people complained that Hamas, its soldiers or leaders, were not in the vicinity of the homes, the school or the hospital.

Perhaps if some of the Americans took off the rose-tinted glasses they might just see some of the attrocities being foisted on the Palestinians by Israel.


I'm not defending Hamas but Israel's disproportionate attacks are a lot worse.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 7/25/2014 6:32:07 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 6:31:31 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
The Palestinians suffer over 800 deaths ...


Jesus, is it 800 now? Already?


The terrorists draw fire toward civilians so that they and their allies in the West can happily use such numbers for propaganda purposes

Wasn't it Carter who promised Israel peace if they just gave up Gaza

All that did was bring the observant Muslims' holy war closer to their cities

Like everything else associated with Jimmy Carter, it was a huge mistake

I wonder what he did with his peace prize

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/25/2014 6:37:55 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
The Palestinians suffer over 800 deaths ...

Jesus, is it 800 now? Already?


The terrorists draw fire toward civilians so that they and their allies in the West can happily use such numbers for propaganda purposes

And Israel don't over-do the attacks??
Such a myopic PoV fed by biased news in the US.
C'mon, take those blinkers off!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Wasn't it Carter who promised Israel peace if they just gave up Gaza

And are the Palestinians any better off??
Nope. They are under a total siege and more than 50% of the land is "unsafe" to live in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
All that did was bring the observant Muslims' holy war closer to their cities

Like everything else associated with Jimmy Carter, it was a huge mistake

I wonder what he did with his peace prize

Probably used it for a door-stop!

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