RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault...

RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 6:14:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Typical you claim not to take sides and then only one side is wrong, and what things the other side does that could be considered wrong is justified and caused by the first side. In other words you are doing exactly what you are accusing Ken of doing. Apparently it's ok as long as you choose the right side to back up. Except in this case (at least from what peon says) that would be the left side. And DK seems to be really confusing people because he isn't toeing the party line and parroting their beliefs. Perhaps things are not as black and white as some would like them to be. Oh come on, THB. It doesn't hurt that much to back up an opinion with reason and evidence. Give it a try one day! [:)]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 6:50:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Typical you claim not to take sides and then only one side is wrong, and what things the other side does that could be considered wrong is justified and caused by the first side. In other words you are doing exactly what you are accusing Ken of doing. Where have I said that only one side is wrong??? I have repeatedly said that BOTH are wrong - unlike DK who firmly believes Israel is 110% right. [8\|] So no, I am not doing exactly what DK is doing. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of putting your own spin on it.

PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 6:57:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Where have I said that only one side is wrong??? I have repeatedly said that BOTH are wrong - unlike DK who firmly believes Israel is 110% right. [8\|] So no, I am not doing exactly what DK is doing. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of putting your own spin on it. Forget about it, FD. It's just inanity. If we say that we don't like to see Palestinian kids being killed, it's a logical corollary that we must love to see Israeli kids being killed and that Hamas's rockets are completely justified.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 7:10:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Where have I said that only one side is wrong??? I have repeatedly said that BOTH are wrong - unlike DK who firmly believes Israel is 110% right. [8\|] So no, I am not doing exactly what DK is doing. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of putting your own spin on it. Forget about it, FD. It's just inanity. If we say that we don't like to see Palestinian kids being killed, it's a logical corollary that we must love to see Israeli kids being killed and that Hamas's rockets are completely justified. Unfortunately, I quite agree. Sometimes there comes a point where banging your head against the brick wall just hurts too much. [sm=banghead.gif] It's a shame that many Americans are soo enamoured by the Israeli/US political spin in the media that they fully believe it's the whole truth. And just like religious zealots, they can't be forced to open their eyes and smell the coffee.

Musicmystery -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 7:19:24 AM)
Whoa. Not "many Americans." A few trolls on a kink site.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 7:49:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Whoa. Not "many Americans." A few trolls on a kink site. Maybe you are one of the few exceptions Tim. [:)] The problem is that many US media channels cover the events from an Israeli PoV because the US support Israel. Many times, what the Israeli bullshit media/PR put out is heavily biased, extremely censored, cherry-picked, and frequently just outright wrong or lies. We've seen this quite a lot recently from other news agencies (most notably Reuters, BBC and AFP) that are reporting from the ground on both sides of the fence. We've also seen soo many US news media being very partisan in what they actually broadcast, especially when it comes to politics and other events (such as Gaza etc) where the US is intrinsically involved in foreign matters. In essence, many Americans are flooded with myopic points of view and unless they happen to choose to find an alternative from a different source, that's what they usually end up believing as the gospel truth. I'm not saying Hamas don't do the same; after all, they want to put their spin on events too! But, unlike Israeli media events, most western news media don't get to see the local 'state'/Hamas TV and radio bulletins and also, what is broadcast is generally (but not always) corroborated by those reporting from the ground. Even many of our US friends that we chat to only see one side of the story - as told by national and local news media over there. So I don't think it's unfair to say that a good proportion of Americans also tend to have a myopic view on these sort of events - as we have witnessed on these boards several times. Over here, we are somewhat lucky in that we see very little biased US media content. Our BBC reporters are well known to also be pretty impartial. Some might question that statement but since before WWII, the BBC is internationally known to be fair and impartial to the point that even our enemies listened to it and took note of its content. Basically, the UK/Europe has no vested interest or direct support for Israel so our reporters have no need to put a political spin on their reports like US media does.

Musicmystery -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 7:59:46 AM)
If you think the entertainment "news" media here are reporting characteristic and well-researched slices of American life, then you're going to be confused on a LOT of issues. For starters, the Republican/Democrat positions are mere talking point creations and straw men, not representing any but the fewest of media-worshiping puppets, and certainly not the views of real people for the most part. Those who forget that are surprised at election upsets.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 8:05:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery If you think the entertainment "news" media here are reporting characteristic and well-researched slices of American life, then you're going to be confused on a LOT of issues. For starters, the Republican/Democrat positions are mere talking point creations and straw men, not representing any but the fewest of media-worshiping puppets, and certainly not the views of real people for the most part. Those who forget that are surprised at election upsets. I quite agree. [:D] Which, to some extent, is probably why those outside the US frequently have a non-partisan (and quite different) PoV to a lot of Americans on just about everything. lol. It may also explain why quite a few Americans (including some rather enigmatic trolls on here) just can't understand/assimilate where us non-US people are coming from!!

Musicmystery -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 8:17:04 AM)
US media largely ignores the rest of the world. People who don't seek out international news get a stunted view of global reality, including the US's role in it.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 8:23:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery US media largely ignores the rest of the world. People who don't seek out international news get a stunted view of global reality, including the US's role in it. Quite!! Well said. [sm=applause.gif]

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 8:59:36 AM)
sorry double post

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 9:06:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Where have I said that only one side is wrong??? I have repeatedly said that BOTH are wrong - unlike DK who firmly believes Israel is 110% right. [8\|] So no, I am not doing exactly what DK is doing. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of putting your own spin on it. Forget about it, FD. It's just inanity. If we say that we don't like to see Palestinian kids being killed, it's a logical corollary that we must love to see Israeli kids being killed and that Hamas's rockets are completely justified. Yup. Even though: 1. I have condemned Hamas rockets to Israel as hideous war crimes that deserve the sternest punishment; 2. I stated my absolute opposition to any theocratic movement (like Hamas); and 3. I have advised people that I financially and politically support a group called (Ex-)Combatants for Peace, which is composed of former fighters for both sides who have renounced violence and seek a peaceful resolution of the conflict; innumerable times here on the threads, some people are still (laughably!) trying to make me out to be a Hamas supporter. It's a sure sign of dyed-in-the-wool fanaticism when people insist that because you are not 100% in accord with their views, you must be a card carrying supporter of whoever their opposition is. They are more to be pitied than scorned. The world of the fanatic is not a pretty place.

PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 11:10:46 AM)
quote: It's a sure sign of dyed-in-the-wool fanaticism when people insist that because you are not 100% in accord with their views, you must be a card carrying supporter of whoever their opposition is. Since support for Israel's actions in Gaza is now down to 15% in the UK, 85% of us Brits must be "lefties". Who knew? It can only be a matter of days before they erect a giant statue of Lenin in the courtyard of Buckingham Palace. My next post will no doubt come from one of the new Gulags.

mnottertail -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 11:16:43 AM)
You'll have to take Winnie down first, make room for Lenin.

BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 11:17:22 AM)
FR Israel is by no means perfect but I side with the people not striving for genocide.

mnottertail -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 11:19:04 AM)
So you side with China then? or is your computer stuck?

crazyml -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 11:48:27 AM)
Quite. Israel is doing it effortlessly. No striving at all.

BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 11:57:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Quite. Israel is doing it effortlessly. No striving at all. Another vain attempt at moral equivalency, genocide is not on the Israeli agenda, it is on Hamas'.

crazyml -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 12:21:58 PM)
Perhaps you could point to what you perceive to be the other attempts at moral equivalency, since you accuse me of more than one? As to your conclusion that this is an attempt at moral equivalency, no, it was not my intention to argue equivalence. As for your assertion that genocide is not on the Israeli agenda, how can you then explain the actual facts on the ground. Can you really believe that their acts of genocide are actually accidental? Gosh, I would expect a responsible gun owner such as you to regard the "accidental" killing of all those women and children as, at the very least, "careless". I appreciate that the IDF is not comfy with its actions being described as "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" but... the facts really are there for all to see.

BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/29/2014 12:53:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Perhaps you could point to what you perceive to be the other attempts at moral equivalency, since you accuse me of more than one? As to your conclusion that this is an attempt at moral equivalency, no, it was not my intention to argue equivalence. As for your assertion that genocide is not on the Israeli agenda, how can you then explain the actual facts on the ground. Can you really believe that their acts of genocide are actually accidental? Gosh, I would expect a responsible gun owner such as you to regard the "accidental" killing of all those women and children as, at the very least, "careless". I appreciate that the IDF is not comfy with its actions being described as "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" but... the facts really are there for all to see. The fact that the Israelis inflict more casualties does not prove ethnic cleansing. You forget or ignore that Israel withdrew from Gaza and turned control over to the Arabs 9 years ago. A year later Hamas started firing rockets into Israel. You want a comparison to personal self defense with a gun, this is like saying I am wrong because the bad guy brought a knife to a gunfight. Another thing you ignore is that I stated that Israel isn't perfect. Please tell me how, to use the conditions stated earlier, when the area is so densely populated as to preclude keeping things like rocket batteries away from civilians someone is supposed to destroy the batteries without collateral damage. I said another attempt, not another attempt by you.

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