RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (Full Version)

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subrosaDom -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 12:32:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school.

Oh well if they only hid them in one school that makes it ok doesn't it?

At least for Hamas apologists.

Really haven't you done enough misrepresentations for one day? No one said that rockets being stored in a school was OK. Storing rockets in schools is not acceptable under any circumstances. What is your problem with honesty and accuracy (and common politeness)? Is it that when you run out of lies and exaggerations there is nothing left to your argument?

I was highlighting the fact that you had claimed there were 3 times the number of schools being used to store rockets as the actual number found. Grossly exaggerating the facts in your own favour has a direct bearing on your credibility (such as it is).


And BamaD is exactly right: http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time/

Third, not first, not second. Now, how many more are there? This is a standard tactic for Hamas which, by its charter, is committed to the annihilation of Israel.






tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 3:13:20 AM)

Tnak you for supplying a functioning link. This link confirmed that at least 2 batches of rockets had been found in UNRWA schools in Gaza. This is contrary to the postion I stated in post # 393:
"Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school. But again, if you have any credible sources to back up your claims please cite them,....

So can we agree that rockets were found in UNRWA schools on 17 July and again (in a disused school) on 22 July.

I found the circumstances of how the alleged 'third find' of rockets on July 30 rather odd, for the following reasons:
* Reports of the 'third find' appear in the Israeli media, but are largely ignored by the international media. According to google, the only non-Israeli media to reports it were Briebart (quelle surprise!), Reuters Africa (my emphasis) and the Australian Jewish News.
* These reports all cite a UNRWA "press release" as the source of their claims that a third batch of rockets had been found by the UNWRA:
"In its press release, UNRWA’s spokesperson said that the discovery was made during a routine inspection of the school, “which was closed for the summer and not being used as a shelter.” (emphasis added)
http://www.jewishnews.net.au/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-a-third-time/36665
* There is no record of any press release dated 30 July 2014 on the UNRWA press release section of the UNRWA site;
* I searched the daily Emergency Bulletins back to20 July and only found mention of the 22 July finding. There was no mention of a find for 30 July anywhere on the site that I could find;
* This absence is contrary to UNWRA practice (and normal practice) of all press releases being posted to the organisation's website;
* Some of the text used to describe the 'third or 30 July find duplicated almost word for word the text used in reports of the 22 July find; and
* It is irregular for Reuters Africa to carry reports of events in Palestine. Rueters has an office in Jerusalem, and another in Cairo, either of which might reasonably be assumed to be highly experienced in, and to responsible for news out of Israel/Palestine. However if one sought to plant a dodgy story, it would make sense to use offices unfamiliar with the situation on the ground.

All the oddities gave me reason to consider that reports of the 30 July 'find ' are in fact re-hashed and re-circulated reports of the previous (22 July) find and the alleged 30 July find may not have occurred at all. I am not in a position to state definitively either way, but feel the above constitute reasonable grounds for withholding judgement on the 30 July until such times as the above anomalies are resolved satisfactorily.

Please allow me to stress that none of the above excuses in any way shape or form hiding rockets in a UNWRA facility - that is an unambiguous war crime and unacceptable at any time. Nor does the fact that the second (22 July) rockets were hidden in a disused facility and therefore unlikely to endanger civilians mitigate in any way from the crime.

So all up can we agree that there have been at least 2 occasions where rockets have been found on UNWRA premises and that the jury is still out on another potential case?




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 3:40:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

And BamaD is exactly right: http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time/

Third, not first, not second. Now, how many more are there? This is a standard tactic for Hamas which, by its charter, is committed to the annihilation of Israel.

I agree - that IS Hamas' goal.
I don't agree with their goal, but I also don't agree that they should be held prisoner under siege for 8 years either.
[ETA] Yes, Egypt also maintain a blockade too - but only Israel blockade both land and sea.

But Israel's purported statement is to rid Gaza of those "terror tunnels".
If that is the case, how do they justify killing over 120 innocent civilians during the night and deliberately battering (and incapacitating) the one and only power plant that Gaza has?? Not only that, but sending leaflets to the northern border and and telling thousands of Palestinians to move or be killed.
And they didn't blow up one single tunnel????
What they say and what they do are two different things.

Israel's actions last night alone, break several rules -
Rule 1. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilians and combatants. Attacks may only be directed against combatants. Attacks must not be directed against civilians.
Rule 2. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.
Rule 6. Civilians are protected against attack, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.
Rule 7. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilian objects and military objectives. Attacks may only be directed against military objectives. Attacks must not be directed against civilian objects.
Rule 10. Civilian objects are protected against attack, unless and for such time as they are military objectives.
Rule 11. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited.
Rule 14. Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited.
Rule 15. In the conduct of military operations, constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
Rule 16. Each party to the conflict must do everything feasible to verify that targets are military objectives.
Rule 17. Each party to the conflict must take all feasible precautions in the choice of means and methods of warfare with a view to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
Rule 18. Each party to the conflict must do everything feasible to assess whether the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
Rule 19. Each party to the conflict must do everything feasible to cancel or suspend an attack if it becomes apparent that the target is not a military objective or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which
would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

...and many more.
In just one overnight attack, Israel break 12 of the first 20 rules alone.

Lets take note of the casualties in the last 21 days -
Israel: 53 Soldiers and 3 civilians dead.
Palestine: over 1,200 dead, more than 75% of them are civilians. More than 10,000 civilians are displaced.

The stats show that Hamas (as bad as they are), seem to be adhering to the general rules when it comes to civilian casualties. Israel are blatantly not doing so. More to the point, Israel appear to be deliberately targeting civilians because they are attacking civilian districts and objects indiscriminately where it is known that Hamas do not occupy.
Israel are doing nothing different to the Kosovan's during that war and they are now being investigated by the UN for acts against humanity and other war crimes. The only difference here is that Israel is backed by the US who appear to turn a blind eye to the current atrocities of Israel.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 3:55:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Are you aware that Gaza shares a border with Egypt?

Yes. But only Israel blockade both land and sea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
A blockade could only be effective if the Egyptians participated.

True. But when Israel blockade two of the three entry points, that makes them more responsible for the hardships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Of course they are because of the radicalism of Hamas and other militants in Gaza.

True. I have never denied that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I guess if the missile attacks were not a daily occurrence they don't count.

They were too busy fighting the other Palestinian lot in the West Bank at the time.
They weren't pounding Israel on a daily basis like they are now.
And the reason they are doing that now is because of the blockade that was imposed.




tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 6:31:09 AM)

Here's another interesting analysis of how the current situation in Gaza came into being - by the influential American Zionist Peter Beinart. Beinart savages some of the myths that circulate about Gaza and Hamas. In particular, he zeroes in on the lies and dissembling that comprise the AIPAC 'official' account of Gaza and mourns several decades of short-sighted Israeli policies designed to frustrate any chance of peace:

"The point is to show—contrary to the establishment American Jewish narrative—that Israel has repeatedly played into Hamas’ hands by not strengthening those Palestinians willing to pursue statehood through nonviolence and mutual recognition. Israel played into Hamas’ hands when Sharon refused to seriously entertain the Arab and Geneva peace plans. Israel played into Hamas’ hands when it refused to support a Palestinian unity government that could have given Abbas the democratic legitimacy that would have strengthened his ability to cut a two state deal. And Israel played into Hamas’ hands when it responded to the group’s takeover of Gaza with a blockade that—although it has some legitimate security features—has destroyed Gaza’s economy, breeding the hatred and despair on which Hamas thrives.

In the ten years since Jewish settlers left, Israeli policy toward Gaza has been as militarily resourceful as it has been politically blind. Tragically, that remains the case during this war. Yet tragically, the American Jewish establishment keeps cheering Israel on
.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.608008

Unfortunately the full article is behind a paywall. If you can't get past the paywall, email me here via CM mail and I'll attach a copy of the complete article for you.

Essential reading for all Americans interested in understanding the reality of the conflict.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 7:08:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
"....And Israel played into Hamas’ hands when it responded to the group’s takeover of Gaza with a blockade that—although it has some legitimate security features—has destroyed Gaza’s economy...."

Essential reading for all Americans interested in understanding the reality of the conflict.

Try telling that to Ken and Bama! [8|]
They aren't interested in the truth - they believe everything that spews from the Israeli propaganda sewer.




tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 8:47:47 AM)

Perhaps the revelation that the people of the UK believe both Israel and Hamas are guilty of war crimes in almost equal amounts might penetrate the Iron Dome of insularity such people build around themselves in order to maintain some belief in the Israel project - a project that has by any rational standard has become seriously off the rails:

"Two-thirds (65%) believe Hamas, designated as a terrorist organization by the US and the EU, is guilty of war crimes. Only 7% think Hamas is not guilty. Condemnation is only slightly less widespread against Israel, with 62% considering Israel guilty of war crimes and 12% thinking not."
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/29/british-public-believe-hamas-israel-both-guilty-wa/

How any one can rationalise away that the people of the UK see Israel and Hamas in almost identical fashions in this respect is beyond me. It really ought to open their eyes to the fact that something is seriously wrong. Sadly I am not holding my breath - the ability of the fanatic to explain away unpleasant news is legendary.




BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 9:20:36 AM)

FR
Huffington Post reports that Amnesty International says that Hamas uses human shields.
Hamas hiding weapons in at least two schools reenforces this fact.
Popularity polls don't count, public opinion on Hitler was divided too.
Only the Arabs in this conflict seek the extermination of the other side, that makes them the bad guys (or if you are more comfortable with it the worse guys)
As I have stated before (although it was misinterpreted as being a Zionist shill {and no, nobody used those exact words) ) this does not mean everything Israel has done is right.
It should be pointed out however if someone is trying to kill you it is possible you will deviate from the Marquis of Queensbury.




Musicmystery -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 10:00:59 AM)

Guys, this is ridiculous.

Does Hamas use extreme tactics sometimes? Yes.

Does Israel react drastically out of proportion sometimes? Yes.

You two are both clinging to one and ignoring the other (and/or saying the other justifies the one).

It's an endless shit storm until one day *both* sit down, back off, and have *real* talks with real solutions on the table.

Until then, it's just your egos puffing themselves up.





altoonamaster -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 10:11:11 AM)

if you use human shields to protect you expect to be killed




Musicmystery -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 11:18:27 AM)

. . . because the disregard for innocent human life is present on all sides.




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 11:36:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

My late mother lived in Europe during WWII. She told me that Cast Lead was the nearest thing she had seen to the Warsaw Ghetto. "I never thought I would see the likes of that again" she told me.

This time around it's worse than Cast Lead - something many though was not possible. Already over 1,000 dead and another 100+ dead overnight, with over 6,000 wounded on one side and c45 dead and <100 wounded on the other.

Had Cast Lead achieved anything, this re-run would not be necessary. This whole ghastly mess is the proof of futility of operations of this type and suggest that the sole purpose of these operations is to punish the civilian Palestinian population.


You're utterly and completely full of shit.
When the Nazi's liquidated, notice that word it matters, the ghetto in July and August of 1942 at least 245,000 Jews were forced from the ghetto and put on trains to Treblinka Death Camp where they were killed as soon as they arrived. Each day the trains rolled, 100 Jews crammed into each cattle car, 50 plus cars per train.

To compare that awful systematic industrial annihilation of a people to what is happening in Gaza is beyond repugnant. You have finally proven yourself utterly and truly beyond doubt an anti-Semite.




BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 1:13:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school.

Oh well if they only hid them in one school that makes it ok doesn't it?

At least for Hamas apologists.

Really haven't you done enough misrepresentations for one day? No one said that rockets being stored in a school was OK. Storing rockets in schools is not acceptable under any circumstances. What is your problem with honesty and accuracy (and common politeness)? Is it that when you run out of lies and exaggerations there is nothing left to your argument?

I was highlighting the fact that you had claimed there were 3 times the number of schools being used to store rockets as the actual number found. Grossly exaggerating the facts in your own favour has a direct bearing on your credibility (such as it is).

The report I saw said three that doesn't make it a gross exaggeration on my part, it makes it a different report. One, just one shows that Hamas uses innocents as shields for their munitions.
Your denial of this basic and obvious fact has a direct bearing on your credibility.
As for politeness I have not allowed the fact that you are wrong lead me into attacking your character or your honesty.




Kirata -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 1:22:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I have not allowed the fact that you are wrong lead me into attacking your character or your honesty.

DomKen has that part covered.

K.





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 1:27:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The report I saw said three that doesn't make it a gross exaggeration on my part, it makes it a different report.

Nobody is justifying Hamas doing this.
But the way you describe it makes it sound like Hamas are the only criminals in this mess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
One, just one shows that Hamas uses innocents as shields for their munitions.

And it has been shown that Israel have used Palestinians as humans shields - and they have admitted it.
So what's the difference??

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Your denial of this basic and obvious fact has a direct bearing on your credibility.

We have repeatedly said that this is not acceptable but you fail to recognize this fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
As for politeness I have not allowed the fact that you are wrong lead me into attacking your character or your honesty.

We aren't wrong.
You paint it like that but because you don't accept that Israel is also very wrong, you have us as Hamas supporters.
Wrong again!!




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 4:31:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I have not allowed the fact that you are wrong lead me into attacking your character or your honesty.

DomKen has that part covered.

K.


So you're defending comparing a couple of hundred deaths to a couple of hundred thousand. How utterly unsurprising. Is this just more of your usual attacking anything I post or are you really agreeing with that vile crap? I guess it will be impossible to find out.




Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 4:40:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Typical you claim not to take sides and then only one side is wrong, and what things the other side does that could be considered wrong is justified and caused by the first side. In other words you are doing exactly what you are accusing Ken of doing.


Apparently it's ok as long as you choose the right side to back up. Except in this case (at least from what peon says) that would be the left side. And DK seems to be really confusing people because he isn't toeing the party line and parroting their beliefs. Perhaps things are not as black and white as some would like them to be.




Pot kettle and black. Are you suggesting because some of use believe the same as Ken on some issues we have to march in lockstep.

Todays question should be are you that fucking stupid...... its rhetorical question since most of us already know.




Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 4:48:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school.

Oh well if they only hid them in one school that makes it ok doesn't it?

At least for Hamas apologists.


Here you go again brains....... suggesting anyone who speaks out about attacks on schools, hospitals etc is a "Hamas apologist"




BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 4:51:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The report I saw said three that doesn't make it a gross exaggeration on my part, it makes it a different report.

Nobody is justifying Hamas doing this.
But the way you describe it makes it sound like Hamas are the only criminals in this mess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
One, just one shows that Hamas uses innocents as shields for their munitions.

And it has been shown that Israel have used Palestinians as humans shields - and they have admitted it.
So what's the difference??

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Your denial of this basic and obvious fact has a direct bearing on your credibility.

We have repeatedly said that this is not acceptable but you fail to recognize this fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
As for politeness I have not allowed the fact that you are wrong lead me into attacking your character or your honesty.

We aren't wrong.
You paint it like that but because you don't accept that Israel is also very wrong, you have us as Hamas supporters.
Wrong again!!


I haven't said that Israel hasn't done things wrong.
I have insisted that anything Israel has done wrong is trumped by Hamas' genocidal intent.
The first and most important step toward peace is for Hamas and the other militants to drop their goal of genocide. Till that happens you cannot ask Israel to play nice.




BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/30/2014 4:52:55 PM)

And it has been shown that Israel have used Palestinians as humans shields - and they have admitted it.
So what's the difference??


Hamas choose the rules.




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