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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 1:09:30 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
...You forget or ignore that Israel withdrew from Gaza and turned control over to the Arabs 9 years ago. A year later Hamas started firing rockets into Israel.

Could that be because Israel put a complete blockade/siege on Gaza???

What would you do if an aggressor was starving your country to a slow death. Huh??
Just sit back and take it?

Sure, Israel have a right to defend itself.
And the Palestinians have a right to fight an aggressor who is starving them and holding them prisoner in their own country.



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 1:17:04 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
...You forget or ignore that Israel withdrew from Gaza and turned control over to the Arabs 9 years ago. A year later Hamas started firing rockets into Israel.

Could that be because Israel put a complete blockade/siege on Gaza???

What would you do if an aggressor was starving your country to a slow death. Huh??
Just sit back and take it?

Sure, Israel have a right to defend itself.
And the Palestinians have a right to fight an aggressor who is starving them and holding them prisoner in their own country.



You have it backwards, as usual, the blockade was in response to missile attacks, not the other way around.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 382
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 2:10:39 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		What does it matter? If you put a dog in a cage, starve it, and turn up only to throw darts at it now and then, it's not much of a surprise if it goes mad and keeps trying to reach you through the bars.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 2:20:21 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
...You forget or ignore that Israel withdrew from Gaza and turned control over to the Arabs 9 years ago. A year later Hamas started firing rockets into Israel.

Could that be because Israel put a complete blockade/siege on Gaza???

What would you do if an aggressor was starving your country to a slow death. Huh??
Just sit back and take it?

Sure, Israel have a right to defend itself.
And the Palestinians have a right to fight an aggressor who is starving them and holding them prisoner in their own country.



You have it backwards, as usual, the blockade was in response to missile attacks, not the other way around.

Really??

On 14 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, reacted to the Hamas takeover by announcing the dissolution of the current unity government and declaring state of emergency. Abbas dismissed the serving Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, and installed Salam Fayyad in his place. Haniyeh has refused to accept his dismissal and has accused Abbas of participating in a US-led plot to overthrow him. Experts in Palestinian law and independent members of the PLC have questioned the legality of the Fayyad government. According to the Palestinian Basic Law, the President can dismiss the Prime Minister but the dismissed government continues to function as a caretaker government until a new government is formed and receives a vote of confidence from an absolute majority of the Palestinian Legislative Council. To date, the Hamas-majority PLC has yet to meet and confirm the Fayyad government.

With the dissolution of the unity government, the territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority was de facto divided into two entities: the Hamas-controlled government of the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, governed by the Palestinian National Authority.

In the wake of the recent developments, the Quartet have reiterated their continued support to Abbas and resume of normal relations with Fatah led PA. While UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon urged international support for Abbas's efforts "to restore law and order". Israel and Egypt began a blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_%282007%29

Notice there is NO talk of rockets being fired into Israel at this point. One must assume that it wasn't happening (or at least not as a daily occurrence) and yet the blockade was put into action and vigorously enforced by Israel.

That blows your theory out of the water.
The blockade was instigated before the daily rockets were being fired. Which, as far as I can ascertain, didn't start happening regularly until the 2009 conflict. By that time, the blockade had been in force for 2 years!!

Admittedly, since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. That would be general Arab militants, not specifically Hamas, who didn't seize political power until mid 2006.
All the Palestinian armed groups carry out rocket and mortar attacks, with varying frequency. The main groups are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Resistance Committees, Fatah, and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Hamas is the de facto governing authority in the Gaza Strip, while Fatah holds the presidency of the Palestinian National Authority.




But the conflict has been going on since the beginning of the 19th century.
More reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict



< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 7/29/2014 2:24:42 PM >

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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
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Profile   Post #: 384
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 4:59:07 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
...You forget or ignore that Israel withdrew from Gaza and turned control over to the Arabs 9 years ago. A year later Hamas started firing rockets into Israel.

Could that be because Israel put a complete blockade/siege on Gaza???

What would you do if an aggressor was starving your country to a slow death. Huh??
Just sit back and take it?

Sure, Israel have a right to defend itself.
And the Palestinians have a right to fight an aggressor who is starving them and holding them prisoner in their own country.



You have it backwards, as usual, the blockade was in response to missile attacks, not the other way around.

Really??

On 14 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, reacted to the Hamas takeover by announcing the dissolution of the current unity government and declaring state of emergency. Abbas dismissed the serving Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, and installed Salam Fayyad in his place. Haniyeh has refused to accept his dismissal and has accused Abbas of participating in a US-led plot to overthrow him. Experts in Palestinian law and independent members of the PLC have questioned the legality of the Fayyad government. According to the Palestinian Basic Law, the President can dismiss the Prime Minister but the dismissed government continues to function as a caretaker government until a new government is formed and receives a vote of confidence from an absolute majority of the Palestinian Legislative Council. To date, the Hamas-majority PLC has yet to meet and confirm the Fayyad government.

With the dissolution of the unity government, the territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority was de facto divided into two entities: the Hamas-controlled government of the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, governed by the Palestinian National Authority.

In the wake of the recent developments, the Quartet have reiterated their continued support to Abbas and resume of normal relations with Fatah led PA. While UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon urged international support for Abbas's efforts "to restore law and order". Israel and Egypt began a blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_%282007%29

Notice there is NO talk of rockets being fired into Israel at this point. One must assume that it wasn't happening (or at least not as a daily occurrence) and yet the blockade was put into action and vigorously enforced by Israel.

That blows your theory out of the water.
The blockade was instigated before the daily rockets were being fired. Which, as far as I can ascertain, didn't start happening regularly until the 2009 conflict. By that time, the blockade had been in force for 2 years!!

Admittedly, since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. That would be general Arab militants, not specifically Hamas, who didn't seize political power until mid 2006.
All the Palestinian armed groups carry out rocket and mortar attacks, with varying frequency. The main groups are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Resistance Committees, Fatah, and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Hamas is the de facto governing authority in the Gaza Strip, while Fatah holds the presidency of the Palestinian National Authority.




But the conflict has been going on since the beginning of the 19th century.
More reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict



Are you aware that Gaza shares a border with Egypt?
A blockade could only be effective if the Egyptians participated.
Of course they are because of the radicalism of Hamas and other militants in Gaza.
I guess if the missile attacks were not a daily occurrence they don't count.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 385
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 5:06:44 PM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I guess if the missile attacks were not a daily occurrence they don't count.

A few post ago you were contemptuously dismissing complaints about Israeli attacks on hospitals in Gaza. If it's OK by you to bomb hospitals, what could you possibly find to complain about if a few missiles are launched?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 5:37:41 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I guess if the missile attacks were not a daily occurrence they don't count.

A few post ago you were contemptuously dismissing complaints about Israeli attacks on hospitals in Gaza. If it's OK by you to bomb hospitals, what could you possibly find to complain about if a few missiles are launched?

You know that post was in response to someone trying to trap someone into saying that no Gaza hospital had ever been hit by a bomb and thus I dismissed his question, I never said it was fine to bomb hospitals but as you say Hamas has no choice but to place things like missile sites near hospitals meaning that they are bound to get hit.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 387
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 6:16:33 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: BamaD

The fact that the Israelis inflict more casualties does not prove ethnic cleansing.

The fact that the nazis inflicted more casualties on the jews does prove ethnic cleasing. How is that different?


You forget or ignore that Israel withdrew from Gaza and turned control over to the Arabs 9 years ago.

You really are a fucking liar. They put them in a pow camp called gaza. How do they get in or out?



A year later Hamas started firing rockets into Israel.


It took them a fucking year to respond to being put in the slammer...holy shit that is some kinda anger mangagement.


You want a comparison to personal self defense with a gun, this is like saying I am wrong because the bad guy brought a knife to a gunfight.


This shows your prejudice..."the bad guy brought a knife ..." a rational comparison would be someone you locked in your basement throwing rocks at you while you blast away with a bar.



Another thing you ignore is that I stated that Israel isn't perfect.


Well not being perfect clearly gets them off the hook for murdering non combatants.

Please tell me how, to use the conditions stated earlier, when the area is so densely populated as to preclude keeping things like rocket batteries away from civilians someone is supposed to destroy the batteries without collateral damage.


Even a simpleton like you should be able to figure out that if the isralies treated the palisteninans like human beings and quit shooting at them and stealing their land the palistenians might do likewise. When in the history of warfare did murdering non combatants win a war?




< Message edited by thompsonx -- 7/29/2014 6:17:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 388
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 6:39:36 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I guess if the missile attacks were not a daily occurrence they don't count.

A few post ago you were contemptuously dismissing complaints about Israeli attacks on hospitals in Gaza. If it's OK by you to bomb hospitals, what could you possibly find to complain about if a few missiles are launched?

You know that post was in response to someone trying to trap someone into saying that no Gaza hospital had ever been hit by a bomb and thus I dismissed his question, I never said it was fine to bomb hospitals but as you say Hamas has no choice but to place things like missile sites near hospitals meaning that they are bound to get hit.



Here is the exchange in full:
quote:

BamaD
quote:



ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:



ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:


ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:



ORIGINAL: DomKen

They also launch attacks expressly aimed at civilians which is again expressly forbidden. Israel does many bad things but they do neither of those things. .




So Israel has never hit any hospitals in Gaza then?


Really?


They built some there, maybe they were just taking them back.



Prick

do better


I answered your question with all the seriousness it deserved.


You were asked a simple question which you answered derisively. Now that it is obvious how damaging your flippancy is to your position, you are trying to back pedal, weasel and save as much face as you can from the mess you created. Pathetic. Cowardly.

Not only that but you invent a total lie:" but as you say Hamas has no choice but to place things like missile sites near hospitals meaning that they are bound to get hit."
I have never said this nor anything resembling this. IF you wish to challenge my denial, please produce the evidence. IF your assertion is true, you won't have any trouble finding the post where you allege I said this and citing it for all to see. You won't of course as the evidence doesn't exist.

Yet again, another pro-Zionist poster exposed as a callous liar. Why is it that Zionists resort to lies and inventions so often? Is it because they know that the truth is not on their side, that they have no credible arguments to advance?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/29/2014 7:25:32 PM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 6:39:40 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

They put them in a pow camp called gaza.


I know it makes many people cringe because of the terrible irony of it: but it looks more like a huge ghetto to me.

Although in this case, more of a kids' and young people's ghetto because, per the Jon Snow video, the average age of the inhabitants is 17.



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 6:50:11 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		My late mother lived in Europe during WWII. She told me that Cast Lead was the nearest thing she had seen to the Warsaw Ghetto. "I never thought I would see the likes of that again" she told me.

This time around it's worse than Cast Lead - something many though was not possible. Already over 1,000 dead and another 100+ dead overnight, with over 6,000 wounded on one side and c45 dead and <100 wounded on the other.

Had Cast Lead achieved anything, this re-run would not be necessary. This whole ghastly mess is the proof of futility of operations of this type and suggest that the sole purpose of these operations is to punish the civilian Palestinian population.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 7:25:07 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I guess if the missile attacks were not a daily occurrence they don't count.

A few post ago you were contemptuously dismissing complaints about Israeli attacks on hospitals in Gaza. If it's OK by you to bomb hospitals, what could you possibly find to complain about if a few missiles are launched?

You know that post was in response to someone trying to trap someone into saying that no Gaza hospital had ever been hit by a bomb and thus I dismissed his question, I never said it was fine to bomb hospitals but as you say Hamas has no choice but to place things like missile sites near hospitals meaning that they are bound to get hit.



Here is the exchange in full:
quote:

BamaD
quote:



ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:



ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:


ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:



ORIGINAL: DomKen

They also launch attacks expressly aimed at civilians which is again expressly forbidden. Israel does many bad things but they do neither of those things. .




So Israel has never hit any hospitals in Gaza then?


Really?


They built some there, maybe they were just taking them back.



Prick

do better


I answered your question with all the seriousness it deserved.


You were asked a simple question which you answered derisively. Now that it is obvious how damaging your flippancy is to your position, you are trying to back pedal, weasel and save as much face as you can from the mess you created. Pathetic. Cowardly.

Not only that but you invent a total lie:" but as you say Hamas has no choice but to place things like missile sites near hospitals meaning that they are bound to get hit."
I have never said this nor anything resembling this. IF you wish to challenge my denial, please produce the evidence. IF your assertion is true, you won't have any trouble finding the post where you allege I said this and citing it for all to see. You won't of course as the evidence doesn't exist.

Yet again, another pro-Zionist poster exposed as a callous liar. Why is it that Zionists resort to lies and inventions so often? Is it because they know that the truth is not on their side, that they have no credible arguments to advance?

Ok maybe it wasn't you but the argument has been made throughout this thread.
Guess I should have used the more precise y'all.
Just one of many excuses to pretend that Hamas doesn't use human shields.
For you my position in undermined by the fact that the sun came up.
BTW did you notice that they found Hamas missiles stored in 3 schools?
No doubt another Zionist lie (Zionist being anyone who considers Hamas' genocidal goal to be the greatest evil over there)

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/29/2014 7:27:07 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 392
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 7:34:57 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Ok maybe it wasn't you but the argument has been made throughout this thread. Guess I should have used the more precise y'all.



if that is meant to be the apology your misrepresentation deserves, it falls a long way short. Man up and aplogise. You will be forgiven.

quote:


Just one of many excuses to pretend that Hamas doesn't use human shields.
For you my position in undermined by the fact that the sun came up.


People who have asserted that Hamas isn't using human shields in Gaza at the moment have cited many reputable independent sources to back up their claims. I note that you have't cited anything to support yours. Do you have any credible independent sources to back your claim up or are you mindlessly parroting Israeli propaganda again?
quote:

BTW did you notice that they found Hamas missiles stored in 3 schools?
No doubt another Zionist lie (Zionist being anyone who considers Hamas' genocidal goal to be the greatest evil over there)

Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school. But again, if you have any credible sources to back up your claims please cite them, or your claim will fall as just more Israeli propaganda

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 8:02:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		if that is meant to be the apology your misrepresentation deserves, it falls a long way short. Man up and aplogise. You will be forgiven.

No it was an explanation. It may come as a surprise to you but your forgiveness is almost as important to me as the Cleveland Browns (which is not at all)

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 8:04:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school.

Oh well if they only hid them in one school that makes it ok doesn't it?

At least for Hamas apologists.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 395
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 8:07:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		People who have asserted that Hamas isn't using human shields in Gaza at the moment have cited many reputable independent sources to back up their claims.

Don't need to your admission that they hid missiles in even one school proves it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 9:38:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

vimeo.com

one source

www.getbig.com/boards/index

two

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 397
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 9:48:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/hamas.profile/

This report from CNN notes that even the Palestinian authority considered Hamas to be radicals (yes I know they recently came to an accord after Hamas took of and had run things for years)

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 11:18:36 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

vimeo.com

one source

www.getbig.com/boards/index

two

Your refusal to apologise for the nasty lie you posted about me speaks volumes about your integrity.

With respect to the 'links' you cited: I couldn't get either of these links to work for me.

The vimeo link appears to be some kind of YouTube type site so I will need an specific page at that site to locate anything.

Clicking on the getbig.com produced a 'Page not found' message in my browser.

Could you please specify the pages you want at those sites? (hopefully a specific page might be easier to find than the addy you posted)

Finally I am happy to agree that Hamas are "radicals", as per your third link (the cnn one). What does that prove? Not a solitary thing. Nada. It's an awfully long way from being described by political opponents as 'radical' to proof of using human shields in a war zone, which is what you were required to do.

Of course until you can produce a link that actually works, from an independent and reputable source, you are pencilled in as failing to substantiate your claims in any way. So unless you can do better it's an epic fail at the moment.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/29/2014 11:28:17 PM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/29/2014 11:33:25 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Well I have only seen reports of rockets being found in 1 Gazan school.

Oh well if they only hid them in one school that makes it ok doesn't it?

At least for Hamas apologists.

Really haven't you done enough misrepresentations for one day? No one said that rockets being stored in a school was OK. Storing rockets in schools is not acceptable under any circumstances. What is your problem with honesty and accuracy (and common politeness)? Is it that when you run out of lies and exaggerations there is nothing left to your argument?

I was highlighting the fact that you had claimed there were 3 times the number of schools being used to store rockets as the actual number found. Grossly exaggerating the facts in your own favour has a direct bearing on your credibility (such as it is).

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/29/2014 11:35:45 PM >

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