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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

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ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

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ORIGINAL: BamaD
Israel is a wealthy... power.

$3B from the US taxpayer every year sure helps!

Are you aware of all the life-saving medical devices and drugs and other scientific discoveries Israelis and Israeli companies have made taht benefit us every day and save lives every day? Perhaps not. But you should be.

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How about all the Palestinian, Saudi, UAE, Egyptian, Qatari and other Arab countries' life-saving discoveries and inventions (Palestine isn't a country, so it's not included in the list, but even if it were it wouldn't make a damned difference)? Oh, yeah, there aren't any. That's what totalitarian societies get you.

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subrosaDom
The IDF is killing large numbers of people just as the Allies did in WWII. Since Hamas hides its arsenals among its people, in hospitals, and in schools, then who is responsible for such violations of international law? Or is the IDF supposed to sit back and say, well, we can't attack Hamas because they violated int'l law, so we'll let their suicide squads come up out of the ground in the middle of schools in order to kill our children? The entire moral responsibility lies with Hamas. Now, can there be misguided missiles and strikes? Sure. It happens in war. War is hell. There is a world of difference between the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians not in harm's way (the Hamas way) and the targeting of arsenals and terroristic weapons and terrorists themselves so pusillanimous that they hide amongst their own wives and children so as to stir up sympathies among the hate Israeli crowd.

You have asserted a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, when there is no more more equivalence between them than between the Axis and the Allies.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

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ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Israel is a wealthy... power.

$3B from the US taxpayer every year sure helps!

Are you aware of all the life-saving medical devices and drugs and other scientific discoveries Israelis and Israeli companies have made taht benefit us every day and save lives every day? Perhaps not. But you should be.

So why do they need all of that subsidy? Why do Americans have to pay to fund Israel if they're all so smart and doin their 'vention and stuff?

quote:






How about all the Palestinian, Saudi, UAE, Egyptian, Qatari and other Arab countries' life-saving discoveries and inventions (Palestine isn't a country, so it's not included in the list, but even if it were it wouldn't make a damned difference)? Oh, yeah, there aren't any. That's what totalitarian societies get you.

Oh, what... like "Mathematics"

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

subrosaDom
The IDF is killing large numbers of people just as the Allies did in WWII. Since Hamas hides its arsenals among its people, in hospitals, and in schools, then who is responsible for such violations of international law? Or is the IDF supposed to sit back and say, well, we can't attack Hamas because they violated int'l law, so we'll let their suicide squads come up out of the ground in the middle of schools in order to kill our children? The entire moral responsibility lies with Hamas. Now, can there be misguided missiles and strikes? Sure. It happens in war. War is hell. There is a world of difference between the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians not in harm's way (the Hamas way) and the targeting of arsenals and terroristic weapons and terrorists themselves so pusillanimous that they hide amongst their own wives and children so as to stir up sympathies among the hate Israeli crowd.

You have asserted a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, when there is no more more equivalence between them than between the Axis and the Allies.

A lot of big claims in this post, but significantly not a shred of evidence (independent or otherwise) to support them.

I have seen no evidence to support the claim that Hamas is either storing rockets or firing rockets from hospitals, yet the IDF has launched at least 22 separate targetted attacks against hospitals in Gaza during the current round of fighting. I have seen no evidence to support the claim that schools being used as civilian refuges are used to store or fire rockets. I have seen verified claims that three vacant UN schools were used to store rockets, but the IDF has repeatedly attacked UN schools being used as safe zones for displaced civilians, deliberately targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. I have seen no evidence that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields but every independent journalist who has investigated this claim has reported finding no evidence to support it.

I have asserted above that the strategy the IDF is using in Gaza is textbook terrorism, and challenged any one to disprove that claim. See post # 628 above for full details. Not a single pro-Zionist poster has attempted to disprove my assertion. You too are welcome to try to disprove this claim - if you can.

So all the evidence I have seen strongly supports the claim that the IDF is using classic terrorist tactics in its current campaign. Hamas has a legal right of self defence against an occupation force occupying its land, Israel has a legal right of self defence against Hamas rockets but not in defence of its illegal occupation of foreign territory. Any measures taken under this right must be proportional to the Hamas attacks. There is no way any one can argue that the IDF's actions are proportionate to Hamas' attacks - they are overwhelmingly disproportionate. Hamas thus appears to be acting on stronger legal ground than the IDF (provided their actions are in accordance with the laws of warfare).

Both the IDF and Hamas are guilty of using terrorist tactics and strategies, both are committing war crimes as a matter of routine, both are targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure, both are behaving like terrorists, both the IDF and Hamas are terrorists, if that term has any meaning any more. Unless you (or other posters) can produce some credible evidence to the contrary, it seems impossible to avoid concluding that there is a precise moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Israel’s Deputy Speaker Moshe Feiglin recently called for the total ‘elimination’ of Gaza, while ruling Likud Party lawmaker Ayalet Shaked called for the murder of Palestinian mothers and their children."

Let me point out what you just did here.
Deputy Speaker. That's no government position I can find so it must be part of the Knesset. After some checking it is the Likud's #2 in the Knesset.
Which since Netanyahu is PM and the Knesset also has a speaker and there are numerous Likud officials in the Cabinet makes him a reasonably junior member of the party leadership.
The other woman is identified as a "Likud Party lawmaker" which is incorrect. She is a member of a different political party entirely.

So you are attributing quotes to two right wing loudmouths as if they mattered when they were simply trying to get there names in the paper.

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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subrosaDom
The IDF is killing large numbers of people just as the Allies did in WWII. Since Hamas hides its arsenals among its people, in hospitals, and in schools, then who is responsible for such violations of international law? Or is the IDF supposed to sit back and say, well, we can't attack Hamas because they violated int'l law, so we'll let their suicide squads come up out of the ground in the middle of schools in order to kill our children? The entire moral responsibility lies with Hamas. Now, can there be misguided missiles and strikes? Sure. It happens in war. War is hell. There is a world of difference between the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians not in harm's way (the Hamas way) and the targeting of arsenals and terroristic weapons and terrorists themselves so pusillanimous that they hide amongst their own wives and children so as to stir up sympathies among the hate Israeli crowd.

You have asserted a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, when there is no more more equivalence between them than between the Axis and the Allies.

A lot of big claims in this post, but significantly not a shred of evidence (independent or otherwise) to support them.

I have seen no evidence to support the claim that Hamas is either storing rockets or firing rockets from hospitals, yet the IDF has launched at least 22 separate targetted attacks against hospitals in Gaza during the current round of fighting. I have seen no evidence to support the claim that schools being used as civilian refuges are used to store or fire rockets. I have seen verified claims that three vacant UN schools were used to store rockets, but the IDF has repeatedly attacked UN schools being used as safe zones for displaced civilians, deliberately targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. I have seen no evidence that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields but every independent journalist who has investigated this claim has reported finding no evidence to support it.

I have asserted above that the strategy the IDF is using in Gaza is textbook terrorism, and challenged any one to disprove that claim. See post # 628 above for full details. Not a single pro-Zionist poster has attempted to disprove my assertion. You too are welcome to try to disprove this claim - if you can.

So all the evidence I have seen strongly supports the claim that the IDF is using classic terrorist tactics in its current campaign. Hamas has a legal right of self defence against an occupation force occupying its land, Israel has a legal right of self defence against Hamas rockets but not in defence of its illegal occupation of foreign territory. Any measures taken under this right must be proportional to the Hamas attacks. There is no way any one can argue that the IDF's actions are proportionate to Hamas' attacks - they are overwhelmingly disproportionate. Hamas thus appears to be acting on stronger legal ground than the IDF (provided their actions are in accordance with the laws of warfare).

Both the IDF and Hamas are guilty of using terrorist tactics and strategies, both are committing war crimes as a matter of routine, both are targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure, both are behaving like terrorists, both the IDF and Hamas are terrorists, if that term has any meaning any more. Unless you (or other posters) can produce some credible evidence to the contrary, it seems impossible to avoid concluding that there is a precise moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.

A steady diet of Mother Jones and Noam Chomsky speeches, coupled with daily readings from The Guardian, will ensure that you never see any such evidence. Even the UN admitted as such, but your sources are so far left that they'd have to revolve around the Earth 100 times to the right before any such evidence became visible again.

Israeli doesn't bury warheads and rockets in civilian areas. There is no moral equivalence whatsoever.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

subrosaDom
The IDF is killing large numbers of people just as the Allies did in WWII. Since Hamas hides its arsenals among its people, in hospitals, and in schools, then who is responsible for such violations of international law? Or is the IDF supposed to sit back and say, well, we can't attack Hamas because they violated int'l law, so we'll let their suicide squads come up out of the ground in the middle of schools in order to kill our children? The entire moral responsibility lies with Hamas. Now, can there be misguided missiles and strikes? Sure. It happens in war. War is hell. There is a world of difference between the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians not in harm's way (the Hamas way) and the targeting of arsenals and terroristic weapons and terrorists themselves so pusillanimous that they hide amongst their own wives and children so as to stir up sympathies among the hate Israeli crowd.

You have asserted a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, when there is no more more equivalence between them than between the Axis and the Allies.

A lot of big claims in this post, but significantly not a shred of evidence (independent or otherwise) to support them.

I have seen no evidence to support the claim that Hamas is either storing rockets or firing rockets from hospitals, yet the IDF has launched at least 22 separate targetted attacks against hospitals in Gaza during the current round of fighting. I have seen no evidence to support the claim that schools being used as civilian refuges are used to store or fire rockets. I have seen verified claims that three vacant UN schools were used to store rockets, but the IDF has repeatedly attacked UN schools being used as safe zones for displaced civilians, deliberately targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. I have seen no evidence that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields but every independent journalist who has investigated this claim has reported finding no evidence to support it.

I have asserted above that the strategy the IDF is using in Gaza is textbook terrorism, and challenged any one to disprove that claim. See post # 628 above for full details. Not a single pro-Zionist poster has attempted to disprove my assertion. You too are welcome to try to disprove this claim - if you can.

So all the evidence I have seen strongly supports the claim that the IDF is using classic terrorist tactics in its current campaign. Hamas has a legal right of self defence against an occupation force occupying its land, Israel has a legal right of self defence against Hamas rockets but not in defence of its illegal occupation of foreign territory. Any measures taken under this right must be proportional to the Hamas attacks. There is no way any one can argue that the IDF's actions are proportionate to Hamas' attacks - they are overwhelmingly disproportionate. Hamas thus appears to be acting on stronger legal ground than the IDF (provided their actions are in accordance with the laws of warfare).

Both the IDF and Hamas are guilty of using terrorist tactics and strategies, both are committing war crimes as a matter of routine, both are targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure, both are behaving like terrorists, both the IDF and Hamas are terrorists, if that term has any meaning any more. Unless you (or other posters) can produce some credible evidence to the contrary, it seems impossible to avoid concluding that there is a precise moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


by your logic, the USA committed a terrorist act when it nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima

by you logic the bombing of berlin was a terrorist act

was that not disproportionate?

quote:



also you mention occupation of gaza lands, and I could be wrong about this but I thought they withdrew completely from Gaza a LONG TIME AGO, but still occupy lands on the west bank that are in dispute




In February 2005, the Israeli government voted to implement a unilateral disengagement plan from the Gaza Strip. The plan began to be implemented on 15 August 2005, and was completed on 12 September 2005. Under the plan, all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip (and four in the West Bank) and the joint Israeli-Palestinian Erez Industrial Zone were dismantled with the removal of all 9,000 Israeli settlers (most of them in the Gush Katif settlement area in the Strip's southwest) and military bases. Some settlers resisted the order, and were forcibly removed by the IDF. On 12 September 2005 the Israeli cabinet formally declared an end to Israeli military occupation of the Gaza Strip. To avoid allegations that it was still in occupation of any part of the Gaza Strip, Israel also withdrew from the Philadelphi Route, which is a narrow strip adjacent to the Strip's border with Egypt, after Egypt's agreement to secure its side of the border. Under the Oslo Accords the Philadelphi Route was to remain under Israeli control to prevent the smuggling of materials (such as ammunition) and people across the border with Egypt. With Egypt agreeing to patrol its side of the border, it was hoped that the objective would be achieved


The Israeli position is that Gaza is no longer occupied, inasmuch as Israel does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip.[45][46] Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”[47] Israel also notes that Gaza does not belong to any sovereign state.

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The Israeli position is that Gaza is no longer occupied, inasmuch as Israel does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip.[45][46] Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”[47] Israel also notes that Gaza does not belong to any sovereign state.

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
1) It's called national defense. The amount we fund Israel is small compared to the contribution they make.

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... your sources are so far left that they'd have to revolve around the Earth 100 times to the right before any such evidence became visible again.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I could show you hundreds of residential buildings with enclosed courtyards...

now you can SPLIT HAIRS and say TECH its not INSIDE the building, but that's more semantics than any evidence of photo shopping or lying

and for the person who even brought up photo shopping then NO PICTURE EVER can he considered evidence of ANYTHING

since you claim this is photo shopped I'll just claim ANY AND EVERY picture you ever post is photo shopped as well

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a Taoist, then?

Salman Rushdie had a fatwa for his death issued by Tom Cruise for Scientology?

Apostate female Muslims face constant death threats because of those damned Hindus?

How about the "workplace violence" at Ft. Hood. Obviously, there was no Allahu Akbar! shout; it was really "Jesus Saves!"

Seriously, the list is so long, so extensive, that there would be tens of thousands of entries.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
yeah so what? it was your side that first claimed a photo was fake, and as I stated then, from here on out ALL PHOTO/VIDEO is ZERO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING

for l know that video was filmed and edited by the Pali's as PROPAGANDA

I watched the video, I see NO credit to WHO SHOT THE VIDEO.

if there is a better link, one that DOCUMENTS WHO MADE the video MAYBE you got something.

if this turns out to have been filmed by the Palis then one has to wonder how they KNEW to be filming from THAT ANGLE at THAT TIME?

that's not CELL PHONE quality video, that's HOLLYWOOD CRYSTAL CLEAR VIDEO and they just HAPPEN to be SET UP to shoot it from the PERFECT ANGLE

JUST DUMB LUCK a film crew was set up at the RIGHT PLACE at the RIGHT TIME EH????

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

The original post said the demo was in Germany. There the swastika is illegal. Which is what I wrote and you disputed.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

The original post said the demo was in Germany. There the swastika is illegal. Which is what I wrote and you disputed.

Even Sanity said the op didnt say the demo was in Germany.

He just wanted it to look that way, which is racist in and of itself.

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam.

Sorry, mate, but we have muslims living in this country and in my experience 99.9% are no different to me in that they want to get their heads down and live their lives.

I don't recall ever being on the wrong end of violence distributed by any muslim.

Let's face it, mate, human beings living on this planet, past and present, have more chance of being attacked by the American and British governments than they do by any muslim, and that my friend is an insurmountable, cold, hard fact.

I would suggest that if you are Christian in the Middle East, it is not a cold hard fact at all. There is a Christian genocide (and I'm not religious myself) going on there now. In Syria, in Iraq, previously in Egypt, and certainly also in Africa. I also think the British soldier hacked to death in London might feel differently as would the Jews in France being killed and assaulted by Muslim mobs.