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DesideriScuri -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/23/2014 6:29:34 AM)
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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In your opinion, does Israel have the right to protect it's borders and citizens within those borders? Would Israel have invaded Gaza this time if not for the rocket attacks and the kidnapping of those kids? Does Israel have any right to fire back at Hamas?
Yes Israel does have a legitimate right of self defence of its territory and citizens. This right stops at its borders, the internationally recognised (1967) borders. Israel has no right of self defence in the occupied territories under international law. Equally, under international law, the Palestinians, as an occupied people, have a legitimate right of self defence (provided they target military targets).
I agree. What's happening now, though, is in Gaza, where the borders aren't really in question. Unless you are claiming that Hamas is launching attacks from Gaza in response to settlements in the West Bank. Considering Hamas doesn't have governance control over the West Bank, they aren't representatives of the people there. Essentially, Hamas can defend Gaza.
We agree that Israel should not be increasing it's settlements in the West Bank. We also agree that Israel should be removing it's settlements from the West Bank.
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If Israel stops the attack and ignores the next round of rockets from Hamas, is Hamas going to stop?
The way the question is framed assumes that Hamas' rockets are unprovoked and the sole cause of the violence - in my view a completely false assumption. As I pointed out in post #84, Palestinians are forced to suffer Israeli violence everyday relentlessly.
As you stated in Post#84. You offered no links or proof of your statements, so you really didn't "point out" the relentless violence.
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This round of fighting is not about the rockets, which began to be fired by Hamas after sustained Israeli attacks following the dreadful kidnapping of 3 Israeli youths in the West Bank. Astute observers have been predicting an Israeli attack since the peace process collapsed. IMHO, Israel's real goal is shattering Palestinian reconciliation between Abbas and Hamas, and preventing the formation of a National Unity Govt for Palestine. As soon as that reconciliation agreement was announced, Netanyahoo's rhetoric went ballistic.
The kidnapping merely provided the Israelis with a convenient excuse to break the Gaza ceasefire. It is significant that Hamas denied responsibility, that zero evidence has been made public implicating Hamas and that others have claimed responsibility for this crime. IOW, it bears all the hallmarks of a convenient pretext for an attack on Hamas.
This is a very brief overview of a complex situation. For a far more complete analysis, please check this out: http://podcast.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/18578/did-israel-spark-violence-to-prevent-peace-offensi
Your assertion is that the current attacks would have occurred anyway. You can't prove that to be true any easier than I can prove it to be false.
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If Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel, would Israel invade?
IMHO the rockets are not the central issue, as I have just pointed out. In fact not even the Israelis claim this - they claim that destroying Hamas and eliminating the tunnels are their goals. If there were no rockets Israel would have found another pretext for its violence.
I feel that focussing on the Hamas rockets -which are vile and an unambiguous war crime - is mistaken. The violence of apartheid, ethnic cleansing, occupation, of people shot by the IDF on a routine basis, of children being shot on average every 3 days, the multiple war crimes Israel commits on a daily basis are at least equally abhorrent. The US gives Israel a free pass on its war crimes and violence, but Israel goes ballistic if the Palestinians dare to answer Israeli violence.
I favour a complete cessation of all violence. I can't see violence as solving any of the issues in this whole sorry mess. If we are intent on stopping the violence, then let's stop all the violence, not just isolate one type of violence by one side and ignore the other side's violence and war crimes.
What you call war crimes aren't called war crimes by everyone, tweaks. Do you have proof that Israel is acting violently without being provoked?
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Any solution to the situation in Gaza in the short term must include lifting the vicious blockade, a cessation of all violence by both sides in Gaza and the West Bank. Freedom for the people of Gaza to live in peace and security from Israeli attacks is just as important as freedom to live in peace and security for the people of Israel. It's unrealistic to expect to achieve one without the other, as the repeated outbreaks of violence indicate.
I don't see how a 2-state solution can even exist. Gaza and West Bank are separate land masses. How the Hell is that going to work (making them one state)?!? I could see a 3-state solution being viable, with Israel, Gaza, and West Bank (or whatever they want to name their states).
Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization by many. It's difficult to think they would drop their terror wing to govern peacefully, but I'll agree it could happen. I do think it would take a strong rejection of the violent wing for Hamas to be internationally accepted as the government of Gaza.
This situation is ugly. It's not really getting any better. We both would like for it to end, but I don't think we agree on that ending.
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