RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (Full Version)

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thishereboi -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 7:54:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

and these television preachers always asking for more money to preach the gospel to unsaved souls/christanity has been around 2000 yrs and still has not saved everybody?



Well that could be your problem right there. You seem to be under the impression that tv preachers have anything to do with religion. Like any other scam artist they are in it for the money, they just use god because they know it's an easy way to make some cash. Now there might be some tv preachers out there who honestly care about people and are trying to help but I have never seen one.




Zonie63 -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:03:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Ok, this is supposed to be a legitamate pscychological study, right? No bias, right? Bullshit.

We are ttalking about children 5-6 years old. Yes, at that age, they believe inthe tooth fairy, Santa Claus,etc. It has nothing to do with the Bible, religious indoctrination or anything like that. It has to do with children and their imagination.


True, although it's not because children imagine these things all by themselves. Somebody tells them about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, etc. - along with the resulting money under the pillow, Christmas presents, and Easter baskets/eggs which further solidify such beliefs in young children.

These are also cultural elements, so children will find that other children their age also believe in these things - and they'll also see it on TV, in children's books, at their day care/kindergarten, and elsewhere in their lives. It's really much more than a child's imagination at work.

quote:


Many also think there are monsters under their bed and let me assure you that very few of the religiously indoctrinated FIVE years olds belive God is going to save them from said monster so they sleep ssoundly.

Nor does it mean that when they become adults they will be unable to disstinguish fact from fiction.

What this thread apparently does prove from a psychological standpoint is that atheists on this site have a never ending issue with religion and that since so many claim to have been brought up in religious households, they have yet to take repsonsibility for their adults issues and so must continue to blame religion.

Science and religion co-exist quite well together. Yes, there are some religious zealots who reject scientific fact. But it seems all atheists can't see a co-existence either which makes them just as ignorant.

So really, how many here of the anti-religious group want to say that their childhood belief in Santa Claus still causes them confusion about the difference between fact and fiction ass adults?


I agree that science and religion can co-exist quite well together, but I would consider science to be more essential to a society and should be given the greater consideration if any conflicts or disagreements arise between science and religion. The concepts of Freedom of Religion and the Separation of Church and State are also essential for maintaining a balanced, peaceful co-existence between religion, science, and secular society overall.

One of the key things I've noticed is that it's essential that people be able to tell the difference between a church and a school. A church is for religious education, and a school is for secular education. As long as people can keep this straight and not get confused about it, then a lot of recent disputes need not ever happen.

As for your question, when I was a kid, I was given the standard spiel about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. I stopped believing in those things at some point during my childhood, most likely learning it "on the streets" from older, more cynical children who also stopped believing in such ideas. I don't know if it affected my ability to distinguish fact from fiction, although my religious upbringing was somewhat limited and inconsistent, not full-blown indoctrination that some might have faced.

My only real complaint might have been that, while I was growing up, I had to wade through far too much fiction before I could get to any real fact. And even then, until I reached a certain age, I was given the sugar-coated version of what little "truth" was starting to trickle through. My parents partially contributed to this, too, although not necessarily due to religious factors. I think that there might be a parental instinct to protect and shelter their children, although in my parents' case, it led to a pattern of intentional deception and lies of omission.

I don't have any trouble distinguishing fiction when I see it, but I'll admit that I won't automatically believe something reported as "fact" just because somebody insists that "it's TRUE!" Or even when it's supposedly "based on a true story."

Or even after lengthy government investigations or court cases involving teams of experts whose job it is to make sure that they're giving truthful, factual information - even that can be questionable at times. I'll admit that I'm cynical of those who tend to be a bit too heavy-handed with the word "fact" or otherwise seem to be a bit too sure of their "facts." I've had long and hard experience with a lot of people who insist that they "know," when it turns out that they didn't know. (This isn't just true with religion, but in many areas of life - and it's a malady which seems to especially affect clerks and bureaucrats.)






egern -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:25:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Can you have free will without free thinking? I do not think so.


Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

A baby will demonstrably exhibit free will, before (detectable) cognitive thought processes have formed.

Does this mean that every female raised in a patriarchal culture cannot think for herself? I think not.



Quite a few cannot. I guess it depends on how much they were indoctrinated.




egern -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:29:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Ok, this is supposed to be a legitamate pscychological study, right? No bias, right? Bullshit.

We are ttalking about children 5-6 years old. Yes, at that age, they believe inthe tooth fairy, Santa Claus,etc. It has nothing to do with the Bible, religious indoctrination or anything like that. It has to do with children and their imagination. Many also think there are monsters under their bed and let me assure you that very few of the religiously indoctrinated FIVE years olds belive God is going to save them from said monster so they sleep ssoundly.


Children about 4 yrs old are 'magical', but this group was a little older, and they showed a difference in how they saw reality. You have to explain that difference somehow.

quote:


Nor does it mean that when they become adults they will be unable to disstinguish fact from fiction.


That is true, but you might say that it was not a good start.





FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:35:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Can you have free will without free thinking? I do not think so.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

A baby will demonstrably exhibit free will, before (detectable) cognitive thought processes have formed.

Does this mean that every female raised in a patriarchal culture cannot think for herself? I think not.

Quite a few cannot. I guess it depends on how much they were indoctrinated.

Unfortunately, this is maddeningly true, especially with groupthink when it is the older matron(s) who put their male relatives up to enforcing said (barbaric) patriarchal practices.

But in Nature, lionesses will band together to drive out a usurping male if he is not seen as an acceptable replacement for their (defeated) former leader of the pride.
I've seen in wildlife documentaries also where bands of apes, led by the alpha female, have done the same thing with an immature, abusive usurping male.

We gals got to stick together.... [:)]

[Edited to swap word]




egern -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:36:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

One of the key things I've noticed is that it's essential that people be able to tell the difference between a church and a school. A church is for religious education, and a school is for secular education. As long as people can keep this straight and not get confused about it, then a lot of recent disputes need not ever happen.


Bingo!





Arturas -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:42:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Ridiculous. The study basically states that children who are raised religiously and presumably have parents who taught them that religion (presumably Christianity) is true, were most likely to believe that the Bible is true. Duh.


Not so 'duh'. They also think fairies are true.



I believe in fairies.


And any other pretend figures?


Obama.




PeonForHer -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 9:55:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

One of the key things I've noticed is that it's essential that people be able to tell the difference between a church and a school. A church is for religious education, and a school is for secular education. As long as people can keep this straight and not get confused about it, then a lot of recent disputes need not ever happen.


Bingo!


Yes, 'bingo' indeed. I'd add: church is for 'beliefs' and not 'the truth', much less 'the Truth' with capital 'T'. I think this would be the basis on which I'd have my own kids brought up.






PeonForHer -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 10:05:30 AM)

quote:

What this thread apparently does prove from a psychological standpoint is that atheists on this site have a never ending issue with religion and that since so many claim to have been brought up in religious households, they have yet to take repsonsibility for their adults issues and so must continue to blame religion.


Crap.




PeonForHer -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 10:12:55 AM)

quote:


As for your question, when I was a kid, I was given the standard spiel about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. I stopped believing in those things at some point during my childhood, most likely learning it "on the streets" from older, more cynical children who also stopped believing in such ideas. I don't know if it affected my ability to distinguish fact from fiction, although my religious upbringing was somewhat limited and inconsistent, not full-blown indoctrination that some might have faced.


Your background, re religion, seems to be pretty similar to mine. I had Father Christmas, the Easter Bird and the Tooth Fairy. But these were little flights of fancy. They dissipated as I got older. They were never part of my schooling. I was never taught that these things were 'truths about the world' to anything like the same degree as I was taught about the Bible. And Father Christmas, the Easter Bird and the Tooth Fairy were kind entities - they never frightened and horrified.





FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 10:21:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Without possessing the ability to make paradigm shifts in their thinking perspectives, Newton and Einstein, da Vinci, Pasteur or Marie Curie (to name a few), could hardly have become the geniuses that they were.

I don't think it follows that if you don't break a child's critical thinking skills they won't have an imagination. We expose children to plenty of fantasy it's not necessary to brainwash them into thinking said fantasy is true.

All roads lead to Rome. [:D]
We are both on the same page with that. Thank goodness my younger son didn't believe the Teletubbies were real, but we did name a litter of 4 kittens after them. [:-]

You are making the assumption that all religious teachings are tantamount to brainwashing, and that simply isn't correct.
Brainwashing can take place in any type of environment--secular, spiritual (non-religious in the conventional sense), geo-political, what have you.

A business associate I knew was married to a 40-ish-year-old Chinese lady who was raised in Communist China.
They were taught that anything other than the missionary position was a sign of mental illness. (Nor did she derive any pleasure from doing that.)
God only knows what the Chinese government did and still does to anyone caught practicing BDSM. (Lobotomy? Castration? Both?) [sm=confused.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

You call it a waste. One man's waste is another man's treasure trove. Paving paths and blazing trails opens the way for others to follow and to build upon original precepts. Neither are more special than the other. One does not invent new methodologies and consolidate principles out of thin air.

Then by all means where are the fruits of Newton's years spent in crazy religious hermitage?

I have no clue, but were any of us a mouse in his pocket while he was partaking of the monks' homemade brandy and wine? There are religious mystics of the Sufi tradition who wrote beautifully inspirational poetry while in their drunken stupors.




FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 10:26:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
<snip>
I had Father Christmas, the Easter Bird and the Tooth Fairy. But these were little flights of fancy. They dissipated as I got older. They were never part of my schooling. I was never taught that these things were 'truths about the world' to anything like the same degree as I was taught about the Bible. And Father Christmas, the Easter Bird and the Tooth Fairy were kind entities - they never frightened and horrified.

Never threatened that if you weren't a good boy, ole St. Nick would leave you a lump of coal?

Re Easter Bunny--Have you ever seen the movie "Donnie Darko"?

On a more personal note, ever try to fool the Tooth Fairy by putting tiny white tooth-shaped pebbles under your pillow? Trying to rip off the Tooth Fairy is a serious offense, you know, that will get minors sent to Tooth-Fairy reform school. [8D]




PeonForHer -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 10:33:59 AM)

quote:

On a more personal note, ever try to fool the Tooth Fairy by putting tiny white tooth-shaped pebbles under your pillow? Trying to rip off the Tooth Fairy is a serious offense, you know, that will get minors sent to Tooth-Fairy reform school.


I don't remember trying that. But I *do* remember, very clearly, the first time I became suspicious. I put a tooth under my pillow and deliberately didn't tell my parents. Hah! As suspected! No coin under my pillow in the morning. I had them bang to rights and they only narrowly escaped being dragged in front of a magistrate.




thompsonx -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 12:09:25 PM)


ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I don't remember trying that. But I *do* remember, very clearly, the first time I became suspicious. I put a tooth under my pillow and deliberately didn't tell my parents. Hah! As suspected! No coin under my pillow in the morning. I had them bang to rights and they only narrowly escaped being dragged in front of a magistrate.


Which sorta begs the question...Did you confront them or did you inform them of the tooth that had "fallen" out over night and sat back and awaited the next night's swag?




PeonForHer -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 1:04:36 PM)

I did the latter. Got my coin the next night. My parents only dug themselves deeper into the pit of lies that they had dug. I didn't care much, though: I got an extra Jamboree Bag out of the deal - and one with my favourite toy in it, too (a parachuting toy soldier).




thompsonx -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 1:18:05 PM)

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

You are making the assumption that all religious teachings are tantamount to brainwashing, and that simply isn't correct.

Teaching anyone that seeking the advice of your imaginary friend should replace logical and rational thought is by definition brainwashing.


Brainwashing can take place in any type of environment--secular, spiritual (non-religious in the conventional sense), geo-political, what have you.

The lie being pimped as truth recognizes no boundries. If the pimp does not respect the truth how would they be expected respect any particular venue?


A business associate I knew was married to a 40-ish-year-old Chinese lady who was raised in Communist China.
They were taught that anything other than the missionary position was a sign of mental illness. (Nor did she derive any pleasure from doing that.)


Wow small world...[:D] My neighbor was married to a third generation chinese-american catholic missionary who was raised a capitalist in los angeles. He and his wife had always been taught that sex was gods way of perpetuating the specie and that it was to be done in the "missionary position" with the lights out and orgasm are what sluts and whores do for a living not respectable catholics.[8|]


God only knows what the Chinese government did and still does to anyone caught practicing BDSM. (Lobotomy? Castration? Both?) [sm=confused.gif]

No they were mostly afraid of excomunication...you know having ones imortal soul cast into the everlasting fires of hell by a merciful god who loved them except when their pink parts got wet[;)]then he would get all sodom and g (what we call medieval today)on them.[;)]





FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 1:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
You are making the assumption that all religious teachings are tantamount to brainwashing, and that simply isn't correct.

Teaching anyone that seeking the advice of your imaginary friend should replace logical and rational thought is by definition brainwashing.

My imaginary playmate was the sex slave I kept in my bedroom when I was about 8-9 who came out at night. Is this the imaginary friend you're referring to? [:-]

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Brainwashing can take place in any type of environment--secular, spiritual (non-religious in the conventional sense), geo-political, what have you.

The lie being pimped as truth recognizes no boundries. If the pimp does not respect the truth how would they be expected respect any particular venue?

Without a doubt. However, there are exoteric truths and esoteric truths. Part of growing up is to be able to distinguish between the difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
A business associate I knew was married to a 40-ish-year-old Chinese lady who was raised in Communist China.
They were taught that anything other than the missionary position was a sign of mental illness. (Nor did she derive any pleasure from doing that.)

Wow small world...[:D] My neighbor was married to a third generation chinese-american catholic missionary who was raised a capitalist in los angeles. He and his wife had always been taught that sex was gods way of perpetuating the specie and that it was to be done in the "missionary position" with the lights out and orgasm are what sluts and whores do for a living not respectable catholics.[8|]

Perhaps they were related? [&:] So-called *puritanical* attitudes toward love-making are not limited to the God-fearing nor to the God-less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
God only knows what the Chinese government did and still does to anyone caught practicing BDSM. (Lobotomy? Castration? Both?) [sm=confused.gif]

No they were mostly afraid of excomunication...you know having ones imortal soul cast into the everlasting fires of hell by a merciful god who loved them except when their pink parts got wet[;)]then he would get all sodom and g (what we call medieval today)on them.[;)]

And where is this contained in the Scriptures? Just because institutions want to make shit up in order to *control* the masses does not mean we as presbyters do not have the God-given Free Will to educate ourselves instead of allowing ourselves to get spoonfed (slave) gruel.
FYI, this was among the 100 objections that Martin Luther had with the Mother Church which he nailed onto that fateful cathedral door in Wittenburg, Germany, that launched the start of The Protestant Reformation.




eulero83 -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 3:16:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
And where is this contained in the Scriptures? Just because institutions want to make shit up in order to *control* the masses does not mean we as presbyters do not have the God-given Free Will to educate ourselves instead of allowing ourselves to get spoonfed (slave) gruel.
FYI, this was among the 100 objections that Martin Luther had with the Mother Church which he nailed onto that fateful cathedral door in Wittenburg, Germany, that launched the start of The Protestant Reformation.


The problem with educating yourself is, as a person living in the XXI century, you simply can not understand the rethoric and simbolism of the bronze age, in the scriptures there is written a good and holy man offers for a gang rape his doughters to sedate an angry mob, I hope no presbyters take that suggestion litterally, but I don't know how many begin to study the history and social enviroment of those cultures in order to understand what that's really ment to teach. I think in the USA you don't have many medieval churches, but if you traveled or read about them you'll know they all have paintings depicting biblical characters and usually animals, in a time where almost no one could read those images had a very clear meaning and were there to educate people, to us are just old art and without being spoonfed by an art historyan what those allegories meant there is noway I could tell myself. This makes me think, if being born in a time where alfabethization is the norm I can't understand what was clear for a peasant 1000 years ago how can I correctly understand the meaning of a text in the words of a 3000 years ago person?
This is the same problem when I hear the sentence: "I'm not a scientist, but I thought about it and I believe..." this only means you are so ignorant you don't even realize how complicated is the issue, and to reconnect with the OP this is an attitude found in people with strong religious believes. The good thing with having been spoonfed during catechism is you do not adapt your believs to your personal bias brainwashing yourself, but growing up you can realize how meaningless those precepts are and move on more easily.




egern -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 3:17:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Ridiculous. The study basically states that children who are raised religiously and presumably have parents who taught them that religion (presumably Christianity) is true, were most likely to believe that the Bible is true. Duh.


Not so 'duh'. They also think fairies are true.



I believe in fairies.


And any other pretend figures?


Obama.



ah, I have it on very good authority that he is in fact a very real person.




egern -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 3:18:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

What this thread apparently does prove from a psychological standpoint is that atheists on this site have a never ending issue with religion and that since so many claim to have been brought up in religious households, they have yet to take repsonsibility for their adults issues and so must continue to blame religion.


Crap.


This kind of argument does leave out the result of this research, which needs to be explained in terms of the kids.




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