RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 3:26:03 PM)

I could be wrong, but I think LafayetteLady was referring to atheists here on CM, egern, not the site of the OP.




Arturas -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 3:43:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Ridiculous. The study basically states that children who are raised religiously and presumably have parents who taught them that religion (presumably Christianity) is true, were most likely to believe that the Bible is true. Duh.


Not so 'duh'. They also think fairies are true.



I believe in fairies.


And any other pretend figures?


Obama.



ah, I have it on very good authority that he is in fact a very real person.


I suppose you think he is a President.




FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 3:44:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

The problem with educating yourself is, as a person living in the XXI century, you simply can not understand the rethoric and simbolism of the bronze age, in the scriptures there is written a good and holy man offers for a gang rape his doughters to sedate an angry mob, I hope no presbyters take that suggestion litterally, but I don't know how many begin to study the history and social enviroment of those cultures in order to understand what that's really ment to teach. I think in the USA you don't have many medieval churches, but if you traveled or read about them you'll know they all have paintings depicting biblical characters and usually animals, in a time where almost no one could read those images had a very clear meaning and were there to educate people, to us are just old art and without being spoonfed by an art historyan what those allegories meant there is noway I could tell myself. This makes me think, if being born in a time where alfabethization is the norm I can't understand what was clear for a peasant 1000 years ago how can I correctly understand the meaning of a text in the words of a 3000 years ago person?
This is the same problem when I hear the sentence: "I'm not a scientist, but I thought about it and I believe..." this only means you are so ignorant you don't even realize how complicated is the issue, and to reconnect with the OP this is an attitude found in people with strong religious believes. The good thing with having been spoonfed during catechism is you do not adapt your believs to your personal bias brainwashing yourself, but growing up you can realize how meaningless those precepts are and move on more easily.

I understand your point, but nobody *gave* me a classical education. I just happened to be a voracious reader with a fire in my belly to seek out knowledge. This was before the Information Age and the Internet. Old school.

It also helps to have a love for social studies, ancient history, archaeology, cultural anthropology, mythology and comparative religions, among other subjects.

Our ancestors, some of whom may have been illiterate peasants, have an excuse. In this day and age, our children and contemporaries do not. [:)]




DomKen -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:09:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

The problem with educating yourself is, as a person living in the XXI century, you simply can not understand the rethoric and simbolism of the bronze age, in the scriptures there is written a good and holy man offers for a gang rape his doughters to sedate an angry mob, I hope no presbyters take that suggestion litterally, but I don't know how many begin to study the history and social enviroment of those cultures in order to understand what that's really ment to teach. I think in the USA you don't have many medieval churches, but if you traveled or read about them you'll know they all have paintings depicting biblical characters and usually animals, in a time where almost no one could read those images had a very clear meaning and were there to educate people, to us are just old art and without being spoonfed by an art historyan what those allegories meant there is noway I could tell myself. This makes me think, if being born in a time where alfabethization is the norm I can't understand what was clear for a peasant 1000 years ago how can I correctly understand the meaning of a text in the words of a 3000 years ago person?
This is the same problem when I hear the sentence: "I'm not a scientist, but I thought about it and I believe..." this only means you are so ignorant you don't even realize how complicated is the issue, and to reconnect with the OP this is an attitude found in people with strong religious believes. The good thing with having been spoonfed during catechism is you do not adapt your believs to your personal bias brainwashing yourself, but growing up you can realize how meaningless those precepts are and move on more easily.

I understand your point, but nobody *gave* me a classical education. I just happened to be a voracious reader with a fire in my belly to seek out knowledge. This was before the Information Age and the Internet. Old school.

It also helps to have a love for social studies, ancient history, archaeology, cultural anthropology, mythology and comparative religions, among other subjects.

Our ancestors, some of whom may have been illiterate peasants, have an excuse. In this day and age, our children and contemporaries do not. [:)]

But you thought there were codes in the bible and other untrue things so just how good was this self taught "classical education?" Did you read the Iliad? How about the Odyssey? When you studied geometry did you read any or all of 13 volumes of Elements?




FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:23:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

But you thought there were codes in the bible and other untrue things so just how good was this self taught "classical education?" Did you read the Iliad? How about the Odyssey? When you studied geometry did you read any or all of 13 volumes of Elements?

Sneer all you want to. I'm in much better company with Sir Isaac Newton, the physician Nostradamus, and Einstein than with the likes of you.

If you really must know, I don't believe in fortune-telling. Much of what those involved with working these Bible codes are doing is to make future predictions.

There are certain disciplines which fools should not be directed towards. Your own skepticism and disbelief actually serves to protect you from yourself. [sm=cool.gif]




thompsonx -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:37:43 PM)


ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


Perhaps they were related? [&:] So-called *puritanical* attitudes toward love-making are not limited to the God-fearing nor to the God-less.

I was unaware that anyone was instructing the godless about kinquie sex only the religious. Maybe I don't get out enough.[:D]




thompsonx -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:45:13 PM)

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

And where is this contained in the Scriptures? Just because institutions want to make shit up in order to *control* the masses does not mean we as presbyters do not have the God-given Free Will to educate ourselves instead of allowing ourselves to get spoonfed (slave) gruel.

Because we were discusing the fact that children are subject to their parents. They are not in a position to go and seek out information that is contrary to what the authority figure in their lives says is true. That authority figure is pimping a particular religious agenda. Which religions do you know of that preach non marital sex? Which religions do you know of that preach kinquie sex? Which churches do you know of that
would be willing to buy advertising space on this site?
We as individuals may of course do as you sugest...but that is not the case.










FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:45:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Perhaps they were related? [&:] So-called *puritanical* attitudes toward love-making are not limited to the God-fearing nor to the God-less.

I was unaware that anyone was instructing the godless about kinquie sex only the religious. Maybe I don't get out enough.[:D]


Your zip code is a different one than mine is, it goes without saying.

I highly doubt that you don't get out enough. You could probably give the lot of us a run for our money. [8D]

[Edited for typo]




thompsonx -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:49:42 PM)


ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

I highly doubt that you don't get out enough. You could probably give the lot of us a run for our money.


That has the aroma of blue eyed blarny[;)]





FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 4:51:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Because we were discusing the fact that children are subject to their parents. They are not in a position to go and seek out information that is contrary to what the authority figure in their lives says is true. That authority figure is pimping a particular religious agenda. Which religions do you know of that preach non marital sex? Which religions do you know of that preach kinquie sex? Which churches do you know of that
would be willing to buy advertising space on this site?
We as individuals may of course do as you sugest...but that is not the case.



As to not being in a position to go seek out information, not so much when we were growing up, but kids nowadays have access to all kinds of stuff. At two and three-years-old, they are playing computer games.

Is there anyone among us who has had the *perfect* parents or the *perfect* childhood? No, of course not. But you know what? Responsible, loving parents of whatever persuasion want what's best for their kids and do the best they can with what they have to work with. Can you genuinely ask for anything more?




thompsonx -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 5:06:57 PM)


ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

As to not being in a position to go seek out information, not so much when we were growing up, but kids nowadays have access to all kinds of stuff. At two and three-years-old, they are playing computer games.

I do not believe that any responsible parent would give their children unsupervised access to the net before they had a drivers license...The license being an indicator of responsibility.

Is there anyone among us who has had the *perfect* parents or the *perfect* childhood? No, of course not. But you know what? Responsible, loving parents of whatever persuasion want what's best for their kids and do the best they can with what they have to work with. Can you genuinely ask for anything more?


Yes I can ask for more. I can ask that they stop lying to their children.




FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 5:17:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

As to not being in a position to go seek out information, not so much when we were growing up, but kids nowadays have access to all kinds of stuff. At two and three-years-old, they are playing computer games.

I do not believe that any responsible parent would give their children unsupervised access to the net before they had a drivers license...The license being an indicator of responsibility.

Then you really don't get out much, after all. [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Is there anyone among us who has had the *perfect* parents or the *perfect* childhood? No, of course not. But you know what? Responsible, loving parents of whatever persuasion want what's best for their kids and do the best they can with what they have to work with. Can you genuinely ask for anything more?

Yes I can ask for more. I can ask that they stop lying to their children.

When it comes to your personal truths and the personal truths of others, who is the ultimate arbiter of these *truths*?

What you may deem to be a lie is according to your standard and to yours alone.

Tolerance is a wonderful thing, whether it be religious tolerance or secular tolerance.

If someone is messing with your children's minds in a manner which you find objectionable, then call them out on it, but don't lump any one group of people into the same generalized category.

Otherwise, you are no better than they are.




DomKen -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 5:38:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

But you thought there were codes in the bible and other untrue things so just how good was this self taught "classical education?" Did you read the Iliad? How about the Odyssey? When you studied geometry did you read any or all of 13 volumes of Elements?

Sneer all you want to. I'm in much better company with Sir Isaac Newton, the physician Nostradamus, and Einstein than with the likes of you.

If you really must know, I don't believe in fortune-telling. Much of what those involved with working these Bible codes are doing is to make future predictions.

No. it isn't. It's total bunk of the worst sort.

quote:

There are certain disciplines which fools should not be directed towards. Your own skepticism and disbelief actually serves to protect you from yourself. [sm=cool.gif]
You totally evaded the questions. You claimed a self taught classical education. Those 3 works are considered the very basics of a classical education. Did you read all of them?




FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 6:07:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You totally evaded the questions. You claimed a self taught classical education. Those 3 works are considered the very basics of a classical education. Did you read all of them?

Should I consider it an honor to be featured on the DomKen one-man show?

Actually, the Odyssey and the Iliad were required reading in school. (As was The Crucible, The Scarlet Letter, etc.)

Not to change the subject, and I don't know what age you are, but surely you remember having to read To Kill a Mockingbird and The Diary of Anne Frank?

Literature has it's merits. I've always been more of a non-fiction reader, or stuff like Thoreau's Walden Pond.

As for Euclid's Geometry, my 7th grade Geometry teacher was pretty impressed when I came up with an obscure theorem she'd never heard of. It was a twist on the Pythagorean, but less efficient.

Any other nosey-arse questions? [X(]




DomKen -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 7:15:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
As for Euclid's Geometry, my 7th grade Geometry teacher was pretty impressed when I came up with an obscure theorem she'd never heard of. It was a twist on the Pythagorean, but less efficient.

This I've got to see.

You might eventually figure it out. I'm trying to get a straight answer out of you.




Musicmystery -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 7:21:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/18/researchers-children-exposed-to-religion-have-difficulty-distinguishing-fact-from-fiction/

I found this article about how children exposed to religious indoctrination don't possess the same skepticism as non religious children and as such have more trouble determining reality from fantasy.

Newsflash cowboy -- ALL children have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy.

http://www.medialit.org/reading-room/what-we-know-about-young-children-tv-and-media-violence
http://www.livescience.com/27187-fearful-kids-can-t-separate-fantasy-from-reality.html
http://www.cricketmag.com/activity_display.asp?id=458
http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2004/12/fantasy-reality-distinction-in.html




GotSteel -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 7:40:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
You are making the assumption that all religious teachings are tantamount to brainwashing, and that simply isn't correct.

No I'm not making that assumption. I'm just making the assumption that all religious brainwashing is brainwashing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Brainwashing can take place in any type of environment--secular, spiritual (non-religious in the conventional sense), geo-political, what have you.

Agreed.




FieryOpal -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/20/2014 8:20:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

You are making the assumption that all religious teachings are tantamount to brainwashing, and that simply isn't correct.

No I'm not making that assumption. I'm just making the assumption that all religious brainwashing is brainwashing.

Hahaha...clever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Brainwashing can take place in any type of environment--secular, spiritual (non-religious in the conventional sense), geo-political, what have you.

Agreed.

Also, I was influenced by my upbringing, but I honestly can't relate to brainwashing.
My father was a free thinker, an armchair liberal, who practiced what he preached. He taught me, by example, to think for myself, and to question his own beliefs and philosophies.
I can't imagine being raised in a regimented atmosphere of guilt and shame.
Following the rules and having respect for authority is one thing.
Not being able to question why these rules are in place or to question authority is a relatively foreign concept to me.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/21/2014 1:03:59 AM)

There seemss to be a great deal of talk among atheists about "scientific fact" regarding religion. All claim to be brirght individuals yet it appears they are quite incapable of what makes anything "scientific fact" versus the "legal/historical" fact or truth.

In science to prove a theory, one creates a hypothesis, then by controlled exeriment tests their hypothesis. Only wwhen they are able to get repeated results consistently cann something be a "scientific fact.,

On the other hand, we have and hold as truth many "legal/historical" facts, yet we can't conduct any experiments to prove those truths. We rely on testimony, whether written or consistently retold, and evidence. Essentially, the laws of reasonable doubt. For instance, it is accepted to be a historical fact that the United States fought against the British, beating them to gain freedom as a separate country.

Yet, no experiments can be done to prove this. We this truth from written documents and artifacts.

We accept as truth the idea of gladiators fighting in the collesium in Rome and of the Chariot races nearby. We can't do any experiments, but through written documentation and archeological artifacts, we accept this as likely being true.

But do either of those things qualify as "scientific fact?" Nope. Historical fact? Myself, along with about a trillion or so people around the world say these things are facts.

If you don't know the difference, then you really can't talk about your ability to separate fact from fiction.




eulero83 -> RE: Children exposed to religion have difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction (7/21/2014 1:55:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

The problem with educating yourself is, as a person living in the XXI century, you simply can not understand the rethoric and simbolism of the bronze age, in the scriptures there is written a good and holy man offers for a gang rape his doughters to sedate an angry mob, I hope no presbyters take that suggestion litterally, but I don't know how many begin to study the history and social enviroment of those cultures in order to understand what that's really ment to teach. I think in the USA you don't have many medieval churches, but if you traveled or read about them you'll know they all have paintings depicting biblical characters and usually animals, in a time where almost no one could read those images had a very clear meaning and were there to educate people, to us are just old art and without being spoonfed by an art historyan what those allegories meant there is noway I could tell myself. This makes me think, if being born in a time where alfabethization is the norm I can't understand what was clear for a peasant 1000 years ago how can I correctly understand the meaning of a text in the words of a 3000 years ago person?
This is the same problem when I hear the sentence: "I'm not a scientist, but I thought about it and I believe..." this only means you are so ignorant you don't even realize how complicated is the issue, and to reconnect with the OP this is an attitude found in people with strong religious believes. The good thing with having been spoonfed during catechism is you do not adapt your believs to your personal bias brainwashing yourself, but growing up you can realize how meaningless those precepts are and move on more easily.

I understand your point, but nobody *gave* me a classical education. I just happened to be a voracious reader with a fire in my belly to seek out knowledge. This was before the Information Age and the Internet. Old school.

It also helps to have a love for social studies, ancient history, archaeology, cultural anthropology, mythology and comparative religions, among other subjects.

Our ancestors, some of whom may have been illiterate peasants, have an excuse. In this day and age, our children and contemporaries do not. [:)]


Maybe I'm not understanding correctly what you meant, but using the peasant example was to say a language based on images that for them was cristal clear to me the only mening is just a nice drawing unless someone don't explain to me the message or I read it on a book (that means I'm accepting the author word).
So what I meant is martin luther was an ignorant and created an army of hepless disciples that really believe what's in the bible are facts as they are wrote, so they reject science, and it's kind of a portestant's peculiarity.




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