RE: Rioting is the answer (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 6:47:18 PM)

Nope. It doesn't work that way, Gauge. You have to 100% embrace the wildest accusations, right off the bat, or you are the enemy. All the angels on one side - all the devils on the other.





Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 6:51:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Nope. It doesn't work that way, Gauge. You have to 100% embrace the wildest accusations, right off the bat, or you are the enemy. All the angels on one side - all the devils on the other.




Fuck me. I knew I was doing something wrong.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 6:56:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The fact that 8 percent of whites are felons where 33 percent of blacks are felons may have something to do with who gets pulled over and searched. Otherwise a department would be incompetent if pull overs and searches did not somewhat match who the hell are committing the crimes.

There are many reasons of course why African Americans are more likely to commit crime... but those reasons are beyond a police Department's control.

As for the disparity... if 33 percent of blacks have a record that makes it hard to be a police officer... if any applied... How many applied... do you know... You can't hire them if they don't apply.

As for Ferguson... their pull over rate black to white is LOWER than the national average... so maybe where you live it is worse...better check before you bitch anymore.

Butch

Huh?
http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf
Ferguson police stop blacks at a highly disproportionate rate.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:00:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Doesn't matter. The Supreme Court has laid out when a LEO can use deadly force and if Brown wasn't attempting to escape then Wilson couldn't shoot. It's called the rule of law.

Ken you said he had nothing to fear because he had called for backup.
Do the math 53 man force 24/7 manning there were maybe 8 patrol officers on duty including Wilson, wouldn't expect backup real soon. I suspect the Supreme Court also allows use of force is the officer is being attacked. That too is called the rule of law.

He knew the backup would arrive within seconds. He'd heard the response and acknowledged it. The guy was on scene less than 3 minutes after he called for backup.

We have the radio traffic.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/

And no SCOTUS does not allow a LEO to use lethal force simply because he is being attacked. The only expansion of the usual person's rights to use deadly force, i.e. in defense of their own or another's life, is to stop a fleeing felon. There is no other exception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

That's why if the prosecutor actually follows the law Wilson has to be charged.

You would think that a great expert on law and close combat would know that in this situation Wilson would think his life was in danger, and that 3 min is forever. In that situation there is only now.

I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort.




TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:04:21 PM)

Just shut up, Ken. Go away, and shut the fuck up. You are doing as much damage to the cause as the fuckwits throwing molotovs.




cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:04:54 PM)


The criminal justice system favors the police. In the case of an overzealous police force, there will be backlashes in cases like this.

You say you are arguing for due process -- but if the process is heavily tilted in favor of the police -- you are by implication favoring them. I know this may not be your intent, but that's unavoidable. For the record, I don't see how I've argued against due process -- I just have a hard time seeing it in regards to the victim. 18 years old. Stopped for jaywalking. Shot dead after a confrontation with an officer.

In this particular incident -- including the background information of the police department -- do you have anything critical to say about how Brown's shooting has been handled?




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainedByAnkle

In Georgia, a 17 year old white boy was killed by a white female police officer, on February 14th of this year. That's right, this year.

He was at home, answered the door when someone knocked, and as he opened the door, the policeman opened fire, killing him with one bullet wound to the chest. His siblings watched him die.

Blacks misunderstand the police. They're not picking on blacks. All kinds are victims of police overreaction. I doubt the Ferguson case is an overreaction, but the Eurharlee, Georgia case definitely was one.

The white kid is dead. No riots. What a shame.

Notice a major difference, the investigation was done openly and the case went before the grand jury very quickly. They didn't return an indictment, which is likely what will happen here as well. We're a week and a half in a we still do not have the cop's incident report or any of the official documents from the shooting despite the fact that Missouri law requires they be released.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:07:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Just shut up, Ken. Go away, and shut the fuck up. You are doing as much damage to the cause as the fuckwits throwing molotovs.

Just whine some more. Cops are killing people for no reason and trying to get away with it in Missouri. People need to speak up.




Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:08:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired.


Please cite a credible source for this statement.




subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:12:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Right, you have sympathy for you own causes, namely pouring anonymous money into electoral races while hiding behind 503(c) fronts, but none for an unarmed 18 year old who could have been handled with pepper spray, better policing skills, or some physical savvy.

Racist profiling by POLICE. Check, that's allowed.

IRS profiling. Sorry, that's unacceptable.


Right. Because you were there. That's why you don't just speculate, but you actually KNOW he could have been handled with pepper spray, better policing skills or physical savvy. Just curious, but when's the last time you got into the ring with Mr. Brown?




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:12:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired.


Please cite a credible source for this statement.

The independent autopsy report.




subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:14:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Nope. It doesn't work that way, Gauge. You have to 100% embrace the wildest accusations, right off the bat, or you are the enemy. All the angels on one side - all the devils on the other.




Fuck me. I knew I was doing something wrong.


Yeah, you're losing it, dude. You need to take it up a notch, make entirely baseless accusations, add in omniscience, and make sure you weave a story that emphasizes endemic racism. Then you'be be getting closer. Might I suggest a picture of Brown as a toddler to buttress your argument, too?




ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:14:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

To be race neutral for second -- police forces that rely on "citation revenue" always tend to aggravate the local population. Nothing pisses me off more or gets me more aggravated than traffic stops and tickets for stupid, minor violations in the name of "public safety." Instead of being public servants, the police get transformed into public hasslelers.



I didn't think there was ever going to be anything I'd agree with you on, but this is definitely one. We have a nearby town that has it's streets laid out in a small, tight grid. They put up stop signs at intersections, in what seems an almost random pattern. Then planted trees on every corner, so it's very hard to see the signs till you're right on top of them, and sometimes not even then. It's a college town, so the police are out in force, and they seem to spend way more time giving out tickets then doing anything else, and the judges back them up 100%. It's almost a kangaroo court then anything else. Nothing but more revenue for the town.




cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:16:37 PM)

quote:



The operative word being used in the above statement is "the majority of cases" not "all" cases. You know, the police should get the benefit of the doubt mainly because their jobs can turn deadly and violent in a split second. You hope that they are restrained and trained enough to deal with it proportionately, but shit happens and sometimes they fuck up. It happens, it is not excusable, and should be prosecutable if a crime was committed. This kid that was shot may have done nothing to deserve it, and if that is the case, I will lead the brigade to prosecute the police officer for whatever crime they see fit to charge him with.


"I've looked at records in hundreds of departments, and it is very rare that you find someone saying, 'Oh, gosh, we used excessive force.' In 98.9 percent of the cases, they are stamped as justified and sent along,” Alpert told USA Today. "

--Geoff Alpert, a criminologist at the University of South Carolina


Scant Accountability For Police

For decades, advocates have lamented a dearth of national data on police shootings and police accountability. Yet still, little is available to quantify excessive force and accountability. Limited assessments of some cities and incidents paint a picture. A series of investigations by the Philadelphia Inquirer in the mid-1990s found that punishment imposed on officers by the police department was reversed or reduced nearly two-thirds of the time after going to arbitration. In New York, despite many fatal shootings, not one officer was convicted of homicide for an on-the-job shooting between 1977 and 1995. And in the Atlanta area, a spokesperson for the Fulton County District Attorney told Human Rights Watch he could only recall three instances of police officers being charged for anything at all over a five-year period. "

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/12/3470313/justice-race-and-michael-brown/

Police shootings are emotionally and politically charged events, fraught with forensic and legal difficulties. Officers say civilians cannot fathom what it is like to be in a shooting. Eyewitnesses contradict each other. Officers often can't remember how many times they fired. Top District officials must balance law and policy against the imperative that police officers not feel intimidated in using their weapons to protect themselves or others.

"Anybody can second-guess you on this stuff," said Officer John Diehl, who shot and wounded two men in a 1994 incident ruled justified, and wounded another man last month in an incident still under investigation. "You second-guess yourself a lot."

Said lawyer Arthur Burger, who defended police in the corporation counsel's office in the late 1980s: "The lawyers sit in air-conditioned courtrooms and go over jury instructions, and we debate these things and parse the words, and the cop had two seconds to shoot or not shoot. On some dark night when all our heads were on our pillows, this guy had to make a snap decision."

The investigations can grind on for years. Prosecutors took 2½ years to charge Officers Roosevelt Askew and William Middleton with lying about a fatal 1994 car shooting – even though Askew in his first interview with a prosecutor had acknowledged to telling a false story about why he shot and killed an unarmed driver. The U.S. attorney's office took four years to decide not to charge Officer Daniel Hall in a fatal 1993 car shooting. Hall still has not been restored to full duty status while the department decides what to do with his case, according to police officials.

But despite the time the investigations take, The Post found several cases that cast doubt on how thoroughly and impartially police investigate shooting cases. All these shootings were ruled justified:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police1page4.htm




subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:18:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Doesn't matter. The Supreme Court has laid out when a LEO can use deadly force and if Brown wasn't attempting to escape then Wilson couldn't shoot. It's called the rule of law.

Ken you said he had nothing to fear because he had called for backup.
Do the math 53 man force 24/7 manning there were maybe 8 patrol officers on duty including Wilson, wouldn't expect backup real soon. I suspect the Supreme Court also allows use of force is the officer is being attacked. That too is called the rule of law.

He knew the backup would arrive within seconds. He'd heard the response and acknowledged it. The guy was on scene less than 3 minutes after he called for backup.

We have the radio traffic.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/

And no SCOTUS does not allow a LEO to use lethal force simply because he is being attacked. The only expansion of the usual person's rights to use deadly force, i.e. in defense of their own or another's life, is to stop a fleeing felon. There is no other exception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

That's why if the prosecutor actually follows the law Wilson has to be charged.

You would think that a great expert on law and close combat would know that in this situation Wilson would think his life was in danger, and that 3 min is forever. In that situation there is only now.

I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort.


Let us assume Brown was 10 feet away and charging at 10mph. That's 1 mile every 6 minutes or 5280 ft/360 seconds or a bit of 14 ft/sec. Now, even if Brown were "charging" at 7mph, that is 10ft/sec. So perhaps you'd like to explain how someone closing in on you at the rate gives you a lot of time and other options. Do you suspend the laws of physics?





subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired.


Please cite a credible source for this statement.

The independent autopsy report.


That says he had no powder burns. As my previous post explains, and I know Ken that you are more than scientifically literate, the physics explains very easily why he could have been in imminent danger when he fired.




subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:21:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

To be race neutral for second -- police forces that rely on "citation revenue" always tend to aggravate the local population. Nothing pisses me off more or gets me more aggravated than traffic stops and tickets for stupid, minor violations in the name of "public safety." Instead of being public servants, the police get transformed into public hasslelers.



I didn't think there was ever going to be anything I'd agree with you on, but this is definitely one. We have a nearby town that has it's streets laid out in a small, tight grid. They put up stop signs at intersections, in what seems an almost random pattern. Then planted trees on every corner, so it's very hard to see the signs till you're right on top of them, and sometimes not even then. It's a college town, so the police are out in force, and they seem to spend way more time giving out tickets then doing anything else, and the judges back them up 100%. It's almost a kangaroo court then anything else. Nothing but more revenue for the town.


Even a broken clock ...




BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:23:59 PM)

I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort.

========================================
Ken
Why didn't you tell us you were there and saw the whole thing.
I realize that you don't think anyone, least of all a cop, has the right to defend themselves until they are half dead, but get real if Brown was charging him and he waited till Brown got to him it would be too late.




Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:24:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The criminal justice system favors the police. In the case of an overzealous police force, there will be backlashes in cases like this.

You say you are arguing for due process -- but if the process is heavily tilted in favor of the police -- you are by implication favoring them. I know this may not be your intent, but that's unavoidable.


No, it isn't an implied stance it is a perfectly legitimate one that is exquisitely neutral.

quote:

For the record, I don't see how I've argued against due process -- I just have a hard time seeing it in regards to the victim. 18 years old. Stopped for jaywalking. Shot dead after a confrontation with an officer.


For the record, you just did.

quote:

In this particular incident -- including the background information of the police department -- do you have anything critical to say about how Brown's shooting has been handled?


I am not certain what you are asking me. Are you asking me whether or not the handling of the physical scene was flawed or the public relations side of things? If you are asking about the physical scene, I am no forensics expert (like some people on here are) and therefore I am not qualified to give an opinion about how the scene was controlled and processed. On the public relations side of things, sure, mistakes were obviously made or people would not have become as upset as they were. That the police department did not capitulate to the demands of the community to hang the officer is no shocker, but the police could have been more cooperative with some of, not all of, the information.

Not sure if that was what you were looking for or not but there is my answer.




BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:25:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Just shut up, Ken. Go away, and shut the fuck up. You are doing as much damage to the cause as the fuckwits throwing molotovs.

Why do you think I keep him talking?




Page: <<   < prev  41 42 [43] 44 45   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625