RE: Rioting is the answer

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BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:27:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The criminal justice system favors the police. In the case of an overzealous police force, there will be backlashes in cases like this. You say you are arguing for due process -- but if the process is heavily tilted in favor of the police -- you are by implication favoring them. I know this may not be your intent, but that's unavoidable. For the record, I don't see how I've argued against due process -- I just have a hard time seeing it in regards to the victim. 18 years old. Stopped for jaywalking. Shot dead after a confrontation with an officer. In this particular incident -- including the background information of the police department -- do you have anything critical to say about how Brown's shooting has been handled? Simple you don't need all the facts you have already declared Wilson guilty, that is what sane people call bypassing due process. It is the attitude that fuels lynch mobs.

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:28:50 PM)
quote: I didn't think there was ever going to be anything I'd agree with you on, but this is definitely one. We have a nearby town that has it's streets laid out in a small, tight grid. They put up stop signs at intersections, in what seems an almost random pattern. Then planted trees on every corner, so it's very hard to see the signs till you're right on top of them, and sometimes not even then. It's a college town, so the police are out in force, and they seem to spend way more time giving out tickets then doing anything else, and the judges back them up 100%. It's almost a kangaroo court then anything else. Nothing but more revenue for the town. It's a racket. In Baltimore the city put up a series of speed and traffic light cameras. Although I am not a fan of these devices, I've noticed that the police force has become much less concerned with traffic enforcement -- as the officers probably don't have quotas of tickets to issue. The revenue comes in, points are not assessed for infractions, and the officers can spend their time focusing on other matters.

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:29:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: ChainedByAnkle In Georgia, a 17 year old white boy was killed by a white female police officer, on February 14th of this year. That's right, this year. He was at home, answered the door when someone knocked, and as he opened the door, the policeman opened fire, killing him with one bullet wound to the chest. His siblings watched him die. Blacks misunderstand the police. They're not picking on blacks. All kinds are victims of police overreaction. I doubt the Ferguson case is an overreaction, but the Eurharlee, Georgia case definitely was one. The white kid is dead. No riots. What a shame. Notice a major difference, the investigation was done openly and the case went before the grand jury very quickly. They didn't return an indictment, which is likely what will happen here as well. We're a week and a half in a we still do not have the cop's incident report or any of the official documents from the shooting despite the fact that Missouri law requires they be released. The shooting was in Feb they just decided not to charge him. That is 6 months. And you are whining about less than two weeks. When was the last time white people rioted over something like this? Being the expert on everything I am sure you know.

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:36:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Doesn't matter. The Supreme Court has laid out when a LEO can use deadly force and if Brown wasn't attempting to escape then Wilson couldn't shoot. It's called the rule of law. Ken you said he had nothing to fear because he had called for backup. Do the math 53 man force 24/7 manning there were maybe 8 patrol officers on duty including Wilson, wouldn't expect backup real soon. I suspect the Supreme Court also allows use of force is the officer is being attacked. That too is called the rule of law. He knew the backup would arrive within seconds. He'd heard the response and acknowledged it. The guy was on scene less than 3 minutes after he called for backup. We have the radio traffic. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/ And no SCOTUS does not allow a LEO to use lethal force simply because he is being attacked. The only expansion of the usual person's rights to use deadly force, i.e. in defense of their own or another's life, is to stop a fleeing felon. There is no other exception. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner That's why if the prosecutor actually follows the law Wilson has to be charged. You would think that a great expert on law and close combat would know that in this situation Wilson would think his life was in danger, and that 3 min is forever. In that situation there is only now. I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort. Let us assume Brown was 10 feet away and charging at 10mph. That's 1 mile every 6 minutes or 5280 ft/360 seconds or a bit of 14 ft/sec. Now, even if Brown were "charging" at 7mph, that is 10ft/sec. So perhaps you'd like to explain how someone closing in on you at the rate gives you a lot of time and other options. Do you suspend the laws of physics? The laws of Physics, like rational thought, do not exist in Kens world. He cooks grits in 5 min.

kdsub -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:38:14 PM)
Your link has nothing to do with mine... I've already said blacks should be pulled over more in suspicious situations because they commit MORE CRIME a lot more... But Ferguson black to white pull over rate is lower than the state and the US average.. that is a fact. Butch

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:40:19 PM)
I will credit you with making me think more about my position -- and what has come to light is the process favors the police. As such, the tent pole I set down about excessive use of force, that will probably not come to pass. When elections roll around next in Ferguson, I expect the leadership there to be swept out. The locals should have gotten more involved in changing the community (by voting, organizing, etc.) and I'm hoping that is one takeaway that comes to pass. A mole who wrote about working at Fox News pointed out that the ratings-grabbing victim for the network was always a WHITE WOMAN --and the hulking Brown is obviously the opposite of that.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 7:56:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. Please cite a credible source for this statement. He can't, because it doesn't exist. As I've already pointed out, drop-off for pistol residue is around 3 feet. So Brown could have been as close as 37" and still not gotten any residue around the wound. He keeps saying "the independent autopsy report", but amazingly enough, it says no such thing. As a matter of fact, that very report states that Brown could have been charging head down when he received the fatal wound. But Ken, if I'm wrong, please show us where exactly the report states that the officer was in absolutely no danger. Or are you the one who's full of shit now?

Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:02:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I will credit you with making me think more about my position -- That is all I wanted to do. quote: and what has come to light is the process favors the police. Yes, it does. It is a terrible shame that some of the police get away with what they do. I wish I knew how to make them more accountable except for independent oversight. quote: As such, the tent pole I set down about excessive use of force, that will probably not come to pass. Or it might. Look man, I have got to try to have some faith in the system although I don't have much. I want to see the right thing done, maybe that is a little naive on my part, but there are worse things to be than naive. quote: When elections roll around next in Ferguson, I expect the leadership there to be swept out. The locals should have gotten more involved in changing the community (by voting, organizing, etc.) and I'm hoping that is one takeaway that comes to pass. People must vote to change things, but they have to vote in the first place. I do hope that some change happens for the citizens of Ferguson. quote: A mole who wrote about working at Fox News pointed out that the ratings-grabbing victim for the network was always a WHITE WOMAN --and the hulking Brown is obviously the opposite of that. Yeah, terribly sad. I have no idea if the kid was a good kid or a thug, based on pictures alone, I cannot say what his character was. The only thing that bothers me was the robbery video, but kids do stupid shit, and one incident does not a pattern make. I had a friend in high school, one night he was drunk and, for whatever reason, he broke into someone's home. The homeowner shot him and killed him. It was a stupid thing my friend did and it went terribly wrong, but he was a decent kid and had a good heart. I am not snapping to judgement about Brown based on some pictures and a video, the question that I am asking is what caused the police officer to believe he had no choice but to use lethal force. I hope we get the right answers.

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:04:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The criminal justice system favors the police. In the case of an overzealous police force, there will be backlashes in cases like this. You say you are arguing for due process -- but if the process is heavily tilted in favor of the police -- you are by implication favoring them. I know this may not be your intent, but that's unavoidable. No, it isn't an implied stance it is a perfectly legitimate one that is exquisitely neutral. Just going by statistics, then, there's about a 1.2% chance of an excessive use of force finding, and a 98.8 percent chance of a justified shooting -- under the historical standards of due process. Let me say this, too. Given my position in society (a good one, + I'm white) it favors me that the Police are given the benefit of the doubt. In general if people had to choose between anarchy-crime-civil disorder -- or law and order -- L&O wins. If you start scrutinizing everything officers do -- then it could inhibit the whole police department from doing its job.

Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:05:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted He can't, because it doesn't exist. I know.[:)]

TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:11:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge It is a terrible shame that some of the police get away with what they do. I wish I knew how to make them more accountable except for independent oversight. Just a couple ideas to toss out for discussion: Ban police unions. Any officer who kills someone in the line of duty is done being a police officer. Automatic desk duty until the case is closed, then off the job permanently.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:20:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 Or, maybe we can just train cops not to be assholes on a power trip. Maybe we can remind them that they are public servants and not feudal lords to be obeyed no matter what. Maybe we could change the homespun wisdom of law enforcement which you and others apparently subscribe to. It's not as if any of their bullshit methods actually work to keep society safe, so who's kidding whom here? The majority of them already know all that. It's the ones who don't who make the rest look bad. And because the media primarily focuses on the assholes, those are the only ones you usually hear about. I think it was GoddessManko who posted a link to a story about a cop doing good things but no one wants to talk about those cases. I'm not saying that all cops are bad, nor am I even questioning the function of law enforcement. A lot of the problems they're facing have more to do with the structure of society itself and the conditions they have to face. But not all police departments operate the same way, and I agree that there are plenty of "good cop" stories out there. The cops may be hampered by politics and the local power structure to some degree, the ones largely responsible for creating the conditions which breed discontent among certain segments of the population. The police are then thrown into these areas of discontent and told to maintain law and order under conditions analogous to "subdued rebellion." In a healthier society, things like this wouldn't happen. There will always be bad apples in any barrel, but even the bad apples are a product of their society as well. You were stating, pretty emphatically, that the root cause for this entire incident was in the hands of the police, because they were playing dominance games, and because some people (Brown) just don't like being told what to do. I raised a hypothetical argument to show how illogical it is to only allow the police to tell someone what to do if that's ok with them. I'm sorry, but regardless of whether or not someone likes being told what to do, if they're told to do something by the police they pretty much have to do it. Especially if what they're being told to stop doing is illegal. (And while no one has mentioned this before, how stupid do you have to be to draw attention to yourself, by doing something like walking down the middle of the street, when you've just robbed a store and have a box of stolen cigars in your pocket? That's like going to dispose of a body and doing 90!) I can see both sides of this. I have family (biological Father and Grandfather) who were police officers in NYC, but I've had some uncomfortable encounters with police of my own. I've run into my share of officers who were petty tyrants, who I cursed out royally after I'd driven away, but to their faces I was polite. Now I'm not black, so I don't know what it's like dealing with the police as a black man, but I do have long hair and a beard, which tends to get me my share of schmucks.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:31:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Just a couple ideas to toss out for discussion: Ban police unions. Any officer who kills someone in the line of duty is done being a police officer. Automatic desk duty until the case is closed, then off the job permanently. People would have to be pretty stupid to go into a field where if they ever had to do a recognized part of their job, they'd be out of work. Like it or not, sometimes the police have to shot someone. Maybe one day there will be non-lethal solutions that work perfectly every time. If that happens, I'll sure as hell carry one instead of a conventional gun, but such a thing just doesn't exist. I think that police should always work in tandem, an officer alone is just at too much risk, and should be trained to employ non-lethal means to subdue suspects whenever possible. But I don't think it's fair to automatically penalize an officer if they have to use lethal force. As far as unions go, I'm torn. I think unions were needed at one point, but now they seem to have way too much power. The problem is, if you do away with them, will things drift too far back the other way? I think they probably would.

Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:45:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Just a couple ideas to toss out for discussion: Ban police unions. Any officer who kills someone in the line of duty is done being a police officer. Automatic desk duty until the case is closed, then off the job permanently. I don't think that is the solution, the very nature of their jobs and the potential for shooting someone in the line of duty kind of needs a union behind them. Forcing them to lose their jobs if they do have to defend themselves, you would have to be a moron to go into that profession. No, I believe that someone has to watch the watchers. How that takes shape is beyond what I can fathom, but currently there is no system of accountability that appears to be working.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The criminal justice system favors the police. In the case of an overzealous police force, there will be backlashes in cases like this. You say you are arguing for due process -- but if the process is heavily tilted in favor of the police -- you are by implication favoring them. I know this may not be your intent, but that's unavoidable. For the record, I don't see how I've argued against due process -- I just have a hard time seeing it in regards to the victim. 18 years old. Stopped for jaywalking. Shot dead after a confrontation with an officer. In this particular incident -- including the background information of the police department -- do you have anything critical to say about how Brown's shooting has been handled? I know this was aimed at Gauge, but I'll chime in if you don't mind. What to me seems to be the biggest mishandling, the officer should have waited for back-up. He was alone, he was outnumbered and one of the suspects was huge, the incident was relatively minor. (A recent statement made by the chief claims that after he started talking to Brown and Johnson, Wilson recognized them as matching the description of the robbery suspects. That makes it more serious, but it was still a robbery with no weapon involved and no real injury.) It seems that when Wilson confronted them, it had become more of a "face saving" thing. Bama has a point about officers not being able to back down too much, or else they'll be challenged every time, but it seems like he could have waited. I suspect that Wilson didn't think that he'd be involved in a shooting over something so minor either. (Even the robbery shouldn't have amounted to much, if it was Brown's first offense.) If it were possible to read someone's mind, I think he's probably as shocked as anyone at how far a simple "Hey get out of the street" stop escalated. But then look at how many violent encounters result every year from simple traffic stops, so you never really know.

Kirata -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 8:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 I don't think it's so far-fetched as you're making it out to be. I believe there are bad cops who do bad things. But the notion that Brown was on his knees giving up, with his hands raised, when the police officer executed him by firing a bullet into his brain right there in the middle the street in a residential neighborhood in broad daylight, that is far-fetched. K.

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 9:00:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge It is a terrible shame that some of the police get away with what they do. I wish I knew how to make them more accountable except for independent oversight. Just a couple ideas to toss out for discussion: Ban police unions. Any officer who kills someone in the line of duty is done being a police officer. Automatic desk duty until the case is closed, then off the job permanently. Think about that, usually you make since but do you want to be protected by someone who knows that if he shoots someone his kids stop eating? All that would accomplish would be no more cops.

subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 9:01:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 I don't think it's so far-fetched as you're making it out to be. I believe there are bad cops who do bad things. But the notion that Brown was on his knees giving up, with his hands raised, when the police officer executed him by firing a bullet into his brain right there in the middle the street in a residential neighborhood in broad daylight, that is far-fetched. K. Yes, that sounds like it was taken straight out of the plot of Person of Interest

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 9:04:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The criminal justice system favors the police. In the case of an overzealous police force, there will be backlashes in cases like this. You say you are arguing for due process -- but if the process is heavily tilted in favor of the police -- you are by implication favoring them. I know this may not be your intent, but that's unavoidable. For the record, I don't see how I've argued against due process -- I just have a hard time seeing it in regards to the victim. 18 years old. Stopped for jaywalking. Shot dead after a confrontation with an officer. In this particular incident -- including the background information of the police department -- do you have anything critical to say about how Brown's shooting has been handled? I know this was aimed at Gauge, but I'll chime in if you don't mind. What to me seems to be the biggest mishandling, the officer should have waited for back-up. He was alone, he was outnumbered and one of the suspects was huge, the incident was relatively minor. (A recent statement made by the chief claims that after he started talking to Brown and Johnson, Wilson recognized them as matching the description of the robbery suspects. That makes it more serious, but it was still a robbery with no weapon involved and no real injury.) It seems that when Wilson confronted them, it had become more of a "face saving" thing. Bama has a point about officers not being able to back down too much, or else they'll be challenged every time, but it seems like he could have waited. I suspect that Wilson didn't think that he'd be involved in a shooting over something so minor either. (Even the robbery shouldn't have amounted to much, if it was Brown's first offense.) If it were possible to read someone's mind, I think he's probably as shocked as anyone at how far a simple "Hey get out of the street" stop escalated. But then look at how many violent encounters result every year from simple traffic stops, so you never really know. I suspect that Wilson was shocked that jaywalking turned violent. He most likely went in expecting to talk to them and that would be the end of it. By the time he needed backup it was too late.

subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/20/2014 9:05:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge It is a terrible shame that some of the police get away with what they do. I wish I knew how to make them more accountable except for independent oversight. Just a couple ideas to toss out for discussion: Ban police unions. Any officer who kills someone in the line of duty is done being a police officer. Automatic desk duty until the case is closed, then off the job permanently. I'd rather see the elimination of the NLRB and the elimination of all special rights for unions. Unions get the same rights as any other organization, whether it be Rotarians, Masons, the Furniture Manufacturers Trade Association, etc. Then let police have their unions. I disagree that if you kill someone who lose your career. Otherwise, you'd be too gun shy and you'd be penalized for taking down a seriously bad guy. Few would risk losing their career and citizens would end up shooting the bad guys instead -- even when the copes were there. Having cams everywhere can help. It's a lot harder to argue with a video in real-time.

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