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Zonie63 -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/21/2014 2:44:18 AM)
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ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
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ORIGINAL: thishereboi
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Or, maybe we can just train cops not to be assholes on a power trip. Maybe we can remind them that they are public servants and not feudal lords to be obeyed no matter what. Maybe we could change the homespun wisdom of law enforcement which you and others apparently subscribe to. It's not as if any of their bullshit methods actually work to keep society safe, so who's kidding whom here?
The majority of them already know all that. It's the ones who don't who make the rest look bad. And because the media primarily focuses on the assholes, those are the only ones you usually hear about. I think it was GoddessManko who posted a link to a story about a cop doing good things but no one wants to talk about those cases.
I'm not saying that all cops are bad, nor am I even questioning the function of law enforcement. A lot of the problems they're facing have more to do with the structure of society itself and the conditions they have to face. But not all police departments operate the same way, and I agree that there are plenty of "good cop" stories out there. The cops may be hampered by politics and the local power structure to some degree, the ones largely responsible for creating the conditions which breed discontent among certain segments of the population. The police are then thrown into these areas of discontent and told to maintain law and order under conditions analogous to "subdued rebellion."
In a healthier society, things like this wouldn't happen. There will always be bad apples in any barrel, but even the bad apples are a product of their society as well.
You were stating, pretty emphatically, that the root cause for this entire incident was in the hands of the police, because they were playing dominance games, and because some people (Brown) just don't like being told what to do.
Actually, it was SubrosaDom who initially brought up the point about "dominance," which I addressed in a subsequent post. I've heard this same basic idea expressed by cops I've known, that it's their job to compel citizens to respect and obey police authority and that they have to come down hard on any kind of "defiance." I think you, Bama, and SubrosaDom essentially confirmed that point by suggesting that it's their job to do that and that if they didn't, the "thugs" would walk all over them and would even lead to anarchy.
And I was even doing so by assuming (for the sake of argument) that the police officer's version of events was absolutely true and factual. I don't even think there's any actual facts that we disagree upon. My main objection in this part of the thread was in the idea that human beings and citizens in a free society have to be "dominated" by police as if they think they're zookeepers dealing with wild animals. It carries the implication that "force is the only language they understand," and many times, this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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I raised a hypothetical argument to show how illogical it is to only allow the police to tell someone what to do if that's ok with them.
I just thought the comparison was a bit extreme
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I'm sorry, but regardless of whether or not someone likes being told what to do, if they're told to do something by the police they pretty much have to do it. Especially if what they're being told to stop doing is illegal.
Yeah, I recognize that that's what we, as citizens, have to deal with regarding police officers. But I don't think it should be any great surprise that, in some areas, just their presence can create tension. If they're in a rough neighborhood, the police might also be tense, yet still obligated by their role to enforce the law and maintain order.
I fully understand the argument you're making, but it may not necessarily apply to every situation. I think situational awareness might be lacking when trying to apply the hard-nosed, "tough shit" methods in certain areas and circumstances. The same methods don't always work in every region.
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(And while no one has mentioned this before, how stupid do you have to be to draw attention to yourself, by doing something like walking down the middle of the street, when you've just robbed a store and have a box of stolen cigars in your pocket? That's like going to dispose of a body and doing 90!)
Yes, I'm at a loss in trying to figure that part out. I have seen pedestrians do some pretty crazy things out there (as well as motorists, bicyclists, etc.).
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I can see both sides of this. I have family (biological Father and Grandfather) who were police officers in NYC, but I've had some uncomfortable encounters with police of my own. I've run into my share of officers who were petty tyrants, who I cursed out royally after I'd driven away, but to their faces I was polite. Now I'm not black, so I don't know what it's like dealing with the police as a black man, but I do have long hair and a beard, which tends to get me my share of schmucks.
Personally, I've never had any major problems with the police whenever I've had contact with them. I won't say that I've been an angel all my life, but I've never been arrested.
I'm not black either, but I've known quite a number of white people from various backgrounds who might also take a dim view of "authority" and the police, for whatever reason. Black or white, I think that any human being or group of human beings can be "pushed" to the point where they might start to "push" back. All I can say is that if whites can have bad experiences with the cops or the power structure and develop an anti-authority attitude, then I would say it's even more likely to be found among those ethnic groups which have been generally mistreated through much of our history.
This doesn't mitigate or justify any criminal actions which occurred, nor does it excuse any of the rioting or looting. Yes, violence, rioting, and looting are absolutely wrong, but just saying that it's wrong doesn't exactly give us any solutions. Taking a hard line and using more force doesn't seem to be the answer either.
When I said "some people don't like to be told what to do," I didn't say it as a philosophical statement, but more as an observation of history and human nature. We've seen rebellions, insurrections, civil wars, and revolutions throughout human history and even going on in the world today, all real world examples proving this observation, along with countless street level examples of the same basic process in action.
So, I don't think that what I said was in any way mistaken or incorrect. I also agree that you're correct in that a police officer's lawful orders must be obeyed. But you're speaking more of an ideal, of what "should be," but not how things actually are. Is it possible that the police might think in those terms as well? Could they be thinking along the same lines as others posting here in that this is how it "should be"? That people should just comply with their commands and "tough shit" if they don't like to be told what to do? They should just do what they're told, and that's that?
In the end, there will never be enough centurions to keep the Empire from crumbling.
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