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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:04:21 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Give me a break... ArchCity Defenders... they are crap...

HERE are to good figures with graphs for you to check out... the real unbiased figures..

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:06:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

No one is doubting Dr.. Baden


Even the county pathologists say he is a respect doctor... but why let a hack touch your kid?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 982
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:19:45 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You need to look at those numbers again.
Here is a report that details the travesty that is the Ferguson PD.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwptqn3mhq9xvy7/ArchCity%20Defenders%20Municipal%20Courts%20Whitepaper.pdf


KD has sort been naive idiot on this thread.

DK -- that link was amazing. Where did you dig it up?

"Court costs and fines represent a significant source of income for these towns. According to the
St. Louis County two municipalities alone, Ferguson and Florissant, earned a combined net profit of $
3.5 million off of their municipal courts in 2013"

It does sound like a racketeering operation to beat up on the poor and under-employed in Ferguson. Its not good when the police are a parasitic organization masquerading as public servants.

------

"As Ray Downs from the RiverFront Times reported, the amount collected through the municipal courts seems to be inversely proportional to the wealth of the municipality. For example, the City of Pine Lawn is 96 percent black, and “ its per capita income a measly $13,000. In 2013 the city collected more than $1.7 million in fines and court fees. ”

Conversely, “the affluent west - county suburb of Chesterfield, with a population of 47,000 (about fifteen times bigger than Pine Lawn) and a per capita income of $50,000, collected just $1.2 million from municipal fines, according to statistics compiled by the state."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/21/2014 5:26:00 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 983
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:21:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Ken let me ask you a question... if the Grand Jury comes back without an indictment will you be satisfied?

Myself I have read what the witnesses have said about the incident and they are damning for the police officer... but i also listened to the video where another witness said the boy was charging the officer... opposite of the other witnesses. Then there will be the testimony of the officer himself along with possible audio.

So for now I just do not know if he is guilty or not... I do know the Grand Jury has information we do not. Either way i will believe justice done will you? And do you think the blacks of Ferguson will be satisfied either way?

I wish Bob McCullough would step aside for a special prosecutor. I do believe he is honest... he is elected... but he should know that if the officer is exonerated the blacks of Ferguson will not believe he was unbiased. He should swallow his pride and step aside. If this police officer is not prosecuted under McCullough there will be more rioting and looting that could spread through the metro area.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 984
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:36:56 PM   
cloudboy


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Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Here is a report that details the travesty that is the Ferguson PD.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwptqn3mhq9xvy7/ArchCity%20Defenders%20Municipal%20Courts%20Whitepaper.pdf


You would think this kind of police state would piss right wingers off. I am besides myself reading this report.

>Ferguson is a city located in northern St. Louis County with 21,203 residents living in 8,192 households . The majority (67%) of residents are African - American, while the remainder (29%) are largely white.

Ferguson’s unemployment rate is 14.3%, more than double that of both St. Louis County (6.1%) 68 and Missouri (6.6%), and a full 10% of the city’s 9,105 housing units are vacant .

22% of residents live below the poverty level, including 35.3% of children under 18, and 21.7% received food stamps in the last year .

Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of $2,635,400.

In 2013, the Ferguson Municipal Court disposed of 24,532 warrants and 12,018 cases, or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household. <


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/21/2014 5:39:34 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:42:13 PM   
cloudboy


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I wouldn't trust these assholes at all after reading that report.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 986
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:45:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ken let me ask you a question... if the Grand Jury comes back without an indictment will you be satisfied?

Myself I have read what the witnesses have said about the incident and they are damning for the police officer... but i also listened to the video where another witness said the boy was charging the officer... opposite of the other witnesses. Then there will be the testimony of the officer himself along with possible audio.

So for now I just do not know if he is guilty or not... I do know the Grand Jury has information we do not. Either way i will believe justice done will you? And do you think the blacks of Ferguson will be satisfied either way?

I wish Bob McCullough would step aside for a special prosecutor. I do believe he is honest... he is elected... but he should know that if the officer is exonerated the blacks of Ferguson will not believe he was unbiased. He should swallow his pride and step aside. If this police officer is not prosecuted under McCullough there will be more rioting and looting that could spread through the metro area.

Butch

It was pointed out today that if he does he will never be able to handle the investigation of a police shooting again, or an interracial one, as he will be branding himself as biased, he might as well resign from office.
Most of those people will treat it as a travesty if Wilson gets anything less than the death penalty, forget that we don't have anything like all the facts yet.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 987
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:50:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Bama I disagree... I think if he were to step aside it would increase trust in him for the long run... especially among blacks. It would for me. He is trying to throw the decision onto Nixon so he can use it politically... I think that is wrong.

If he steps aside now then blacks will be more likely to believe he is unbiased in the future... he would have listened to them. But if he makes Nixon force the issue he may very well have problems with integrity from now on.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/21/2014 5:53:29 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 988
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:52:09 PM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I wouldn't trust these assholes at all after reading that report.


Statistics don't prove bias. Classic post hoc fallacy. Regression analyses are used to determine to what extent it is LIKELY a given variable contributed to an outcome. It's still even then statistics. Even at a 99% confidence level, 1 out of 100 times its "conclusion" will be wrong. You don't even have the statistical analyses, just a bunch of random statistics. It's innumerate to conclude anything from that.

< Message edited by subrosaDom -- 8/21/2014 6:03:48 PM >

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 989
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:53:30 PM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ken let me ask you a question... if the Grand Jury comes back without an indictment will you be satisfied?

Myself I have read what the witnesses have said about the incident and they are damning for the police officer... but i also listened to the video where another witness said the boy was charging the officer... opposite of the other witnesses. Then there will be the testimony of the officer himself along with possible audio.

So for now I just do not know if he is guilty or not... I do know the Grand Jury has information we do not. Either way i will believe justice done will you? And do you think the blacks of Ferguson will be satisfied either way?

I wish Bob McCullough would step aside for a special prosecutor. I do believe he is honest... he is elected... but he should know that if the officer is exonerated the blacks of Ferguson will not believe he was unbiased. He should swallow his pride and step aside. If this police officer is not prosecuted under McCullough there will be more rioting and looting that could spread through the metro area.

Butch


But suppose Holder's toady is put in McCullough's place? Then we can be guaranteed an indictment and probably a conviction, too, even if Wilson is innocent.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 990
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:54:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama I disagree... I think if he were to step aside it would increase trust in him for the long run... especially among blacks. It would for me. He is trying to throw the decision onto Nixon so he can use it politically... I think that is wrong.

Butch

You live there so you may have a better picture of this but it looks like Nixon wants a quick conviction for political reasons.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 991
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:55:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		No because it is the Grand Jury that makes that decision...not the prosecutor... people don't believe that however and his stepping aside takes the doubt away... or at least lessens it.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to subrosaDom)
Profile   Post #: 992
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:56:28 PM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

That is not a direct quote and I can pretty much guarantee that no pathologist said gunpowder residue wouldn't be deposited at 1 foot. Find the actual quote and then maybe you'll have something.


I'll do you one better. Here is the complete press conference.

If you want to skip to the quote start around 21 minutes in. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/watch-michael-browns-family-hold-press-conference/



Gauge? Why are you ruining things with FACTS?

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 993
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:56:44 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I don't like being hassled by the Police. I always mouth off too much whenever I'm pulled over. I lose my temper. There's no doubt I would lose my shit living in Ferguson having to put up with such a parasitic organization the picks on and extracts money and time from poor people.

It's a scam and kangaroo court in one. The report is damning, and methinks you haven't read it.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/21/2014 5:57:36 PM >

(in reply to subrosaDom)
Profile   Post #: 994
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 5:59:02 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Bama Nixon knows which side of his bread to butter.... but besides that he has proven he has integrity...McCullough does not have the best record when it comes to this type incident... I don't think he is biased on purpose but he has always leaned toward the police.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 995
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 6:04:30 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No because it is the Grand Jury that makes that decision...not the prosecutor... people don't believe that however and his stepping aside takes the doubt away... or at least lessens it.

Butch

Did you know that the DOJ team that handles this kind of case was chastised by a Federal Judge in NO for falsifying facts and leaking Grand Jury testimony?
You can get an indictment against a ham sandwich.
or "I wash my hands of this"

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/21/2014 6:05:37 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 996
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 6:06:35 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


Posts: 1009
Joined: 4/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE are to good figures with graphs for you to check out... the real unbiased figures..

Butch

This link just goes to show what I said at the beginning: this is a pandemic problem in Missouri, and Ferguson is just where the spotlight is at the moment.

if anything, kdsub's link supports the argument, although he clearly didn't mean it that way. This will have to be dealt with by the Justice Department - nothing less than a systematic overhaul of Mo justice will do.

One good thing to come out of this: it could easily become a huge campaign edge for the Dems, not only in Missouri, but likely in all Red states.


Oh, kd - just because you don't approve of civil rights activists doesn't make ArchCity Defenders wrong...

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 6:11:33 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I wouldn't trust these assholes at all after reading that report.


Statistics don't prove bias. Classic post hoc fallacy. Regression analyses are used to determine to what extent it is LIKELY a given variable contributed to an outcome. It's still even then statistics. Even at a 99% confidence level, 1 out of 100 times its "conclusion" will be wrong. You don't even have the statistical analyses, just a bunch of random statistics. It's innumerate to conclude anything from that.

Case in point the College I graduates from lost a discrimination lawsuit because the minority enrollment at the school was under 5%. This was taken as proof of a hostile environment. Having gone there I can tell you it was mainly just that white people chose better schools.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to subrosaDom)
Profile   Post #: 998
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 6:12:34 PM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I don't like being hassled by the Police. I always mouth off too much whenever I'm pulled over. I lose my temper. There's no doubt I would lose my shit living in Ferguson having to put up with such a parasitic organization the picks on and extracts money and time from poor people.

It's a scam and kangaroo court in one. The report is damning, and methinks you haven't read it.


When I was around 21, I was driving at 2am on a 45mph road through a wealthy suburb. My car was a muscle car beater. Looked like I had just gotten it straight from the dump. I mean brown doors, but some yellow, and then splashes of orange. Godawful. So I was doing maybe 75, no one on the road, and I was 100% sober. Cop pulls me over. He says to me: Whaddya think this is, the goddamned Cannonball Run? Clearly he was an asshole. So I could have given him a seriously wise-ass answer. I was just as sarcastic then as I am now. Instead I said something like (pretty unmemorable, unlike the cop's words), "No, Officer, I realize I may have been going too fast. I'll need to watch myself more carefully." So he says a few more things, asks me some basic questions like where am I going, coming from etc., makes sure I'm sober, no liquor on the floor, etc. and goes back to his car. Makes me wait about 15 minutes. Comes back and says: "Don't do it again." Didn't even give me a written warning. I could have gotten a major ticket for reckless driving. But instead I turned on my diplomacy and a bit of humility and got nothing. Now, I've gotten tickets for infractions I didn't commit, too. Twice. But I've talked my way out of a lot more.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/21/2014 6:13:52 PM   
subrosaDom


Posts: 724
Joined: 2/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama Nixon knows which side of his bread to butter.... but besides that he has proven he has integrity...McCullough does not have the best record when it comes to this type incident... I don't think he is biased on purpose but he has always leaned toward the police.

Butch


Unless you're being sarcastic, how has Nixon proven he has integrity? Advocating for prosecution rather than letting the facts come out is an abdication of integrity.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 1000
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