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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 2:55:32 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ken let me ask you a question... if the Grand Jury comes back without an indictment will you be satisfied?

Myself I have read what the witnesses have said about the incident and they are damning for the police officer... but i also listened to the video where another witness said the boy was charging the officer... opposite of the other witnesses. Then there will be the testimony of the officer himself along with possible audio.

So for now I just do not know if he is guilty or not... I do know the Grand Jury has information we do not. Either way i will believe justice done will you? And do you think the blacks of Ferguson will be satisfied either way?

I wish Bob McCullough would step aside for a special prosecutor. I do believe he is honest... he is elected... but he should know that if the officer is exonerated the blacks of Ferguson will not believe he was unbiased. He should swallow his pride and step aside. If this police officer is not prosecuted under McCullough there will be more rioting and looting that could spread through the metro area.

Butch

Hell no. A grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if the prosecutor wants them to. Grand jury inquiries don't take multiple days. Usually the only witness called is the investigating officer who comes in and lays out the state's case and then the jury returns the indictment they were told to bring.

This one is clearly being set up to not return an indictment but give a patina of fairness to let the officer get away with murder.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 1041
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 3:08:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		About that "fractured eye socket" not so much apparently.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-contradict-fox-sources-claiming-darren-wilson-had-fractured-eye-socket/

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1042
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 3:13:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ken let me ask you a question... if the Grand Jury comes back without an indictment will you be satisfied?

Myself I have read what the witnesses have said about the incident and they are damning for the police officer... but i also listened to the video where another witness said the boy was charging the officer... opposite of the other witnesses. Then there will be the testimony of the officer himself along with possible audio.

So for now I just do not know if he is guilty or not... I do know the Grand Jury has information we do not. Either way i will believe justice done will you? And do you think the blacks of Ferguson will be satisfied either way?

I wish Bob McCullough would step aside for a special prosecutor. I do believe he is honest... he is elected... but he should know that if the officer is exonerated the blacks of Ferguson will not believe he was unbiased. He should swallow his pride and step aside. If this police officer is not prosecuted under McCullough there will be more rioting and looting that could spread through the metro area.

Butch

Hell no. A grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if the prosecutor wants them to. Grand jury inquiries don't take multiple days. Usually the only witness called is the investigating officer who comes in and lays out the state's case and then the jury returns the indictment they were told to bring.

This one is clearly being set up to not return an indictment but give a patina of fairness to let the officer get away with murder.

Your right a lynch mob would be much better.
If the white cop shoots a black man attacking him, and isn't prosecuted it is a coverup but if a black cop shoot a white man and isn't prosecuted justice is done. Right.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1043
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 3:16:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Give me a break... ArchCity Defenders... they are crap...

HERE are to good figures with graphs for you to check out... the real unbiased figures..

Butch

Arch city defenders provide lawyers to indigent people in need of such. What do you find so terrible about that? They document some serious abuses in that report you dismiss.

You see their press, he sees what they do day to day, I don't know anything about them but I will take KD's evaluation over yours. He has integrity.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1044
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 4:29:27 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ken let me ask you a question... if the Grand Jury comes back without an indictment will you be satisfied?

Myself I have read what the witnesses have said about the incident and they are damning for the police officer... but i also listened to the video where another witness said the boy was charging the officer... opposite of the other witnesses. Then there will be the testimony of the officer himself along with possible audio.

So for now I just do not know if he is guilty or not... I do know the Grand Jury has information we do not. Either way i will believe justice done will you? And do you think the blacks of Ferguson will be satisfied either way?

I wish Bob McCullough would step aside for a special prosecutor. I do believe he is honest... he is elected... but he should know that if the officer is exonerated the blacks of Ferguson will not believe he was unbiased. He should swallow his pride and step aside. If this police officer is not prosecuted under McCullough there will be more rioting and looting that could spread through the metro area.

Butch

Hell no. A grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if the prosecutor wants them to. Grand jury inquiries don't take multiple days. Usually the only witness called is the investigating officer who comes in and lays out the state's case and then the jury returns the indictment they were told to bring.

This one is clearly being set up to not return an indictment but give a patina of fairness to let the officer get away with murder.

Your right a lynch mob would be much better.
If the white cop shoots a black man attacking him, and isn't prosecuted it is a coverup but if a black cop shoot a white man and isn't prosecuted justice is done. Right.

The place for guilt or innocence to be determined is in a court room. There is more than enough evidence to bring charges. That you don't understand that is part of the problem.

As to your continued whining about the other case, notice that the cop was fired from his job and an arbitrator ordered him reinstated. That means that not just the local DA found the shooting justified so did the independent arbitrator hired by the police force. That's two separate investigations that both found the same way. Also note that the "bereaved" family has yet to try filing a wrongful death suit. If they really thought they had a case they would have sued now wouldn't they?

< Message edited by DomKen -- 8/22/2014 4:37:32 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 1045
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 4:32:23 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Give me a break... ArchCity Defenders... they are crap...

HERE are to good figures with graphs for you to check out... the real unbiased figures..

Butch

Arch city defenders provide lawyers to indigent people in need of such. What do you find so terrible about that? They document some serious abuses in that report you dismiss.

You see their press, he sees what they do day to day, I don't know anything about them but I will take KD's evaluation over yours. He has integrity.

Does he? How often is he in court dealing with the indigent? Or is he basing things on what he hears? They have presented devastating statistics showing that the court and police department in question are corrupt. No counter evidence has been presented. I believe evidence not hand waves. And you shouldn't be talking about integrity.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 1046
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 4:41:05 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		The place for guilt or innocence to be determined is in a court room. There is more than enough evidence to bring charges. That you don't understand that is part of the problem.

Let's see I have said to wait to make up our minds till we see all the evidence .
You say that if they don't convict him it is a coverup and that the problem is that I don't understand that guilt is determined in the court room? You don't understand that the cop haters often twist the evidence for the public and we don't have everything available to us and that there may be compelling evidence we don't have that will clear Wilson. You have made it clear that in your flawless opinion the trial is a waste of time and we should move right on to sentencing. In light of your solid support of a black cop shooting a white may who was siting in his car and a white cop shooting a white kid for opening the door if they don't charge Wilson are you man enough to say that justice has been done? I know the answer but I want to hear you be man enough to admit it. If he is cleared you will be whining about this two years from now just like you still try to prove that Zimmerman was guilty. The courts have spoken in that one and in the Pinckerton case but you refuse to accept it because you are so much smarter than anyone who disagrees with you.

The courts words are final, as long as they agree with you.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/22/2014 4:55:50 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1047
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 5:31:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The Lt Governor seems to think Nixon wants a quick conviction.


I'm shocked he would say that...lol Of course politics are not involved in his position.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 1048
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 5:34:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I see... Why worry about the innocent until proven guilty crap... just string the bastard up.



_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1049
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 5:40:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vigorous prosecution of the facts..." Their obligation to achieve justice in the shooting death of Michael Brown must be carried out thoroughly, promptly, and correctly"

Only Republicans would take it any other way... be my guest... I'll stick with promptly and correctly...and I'm no Democrat...lol.

Butch

Seems I might well have been wrong about Nixon, particularly in light of comments by Maria Chappelle-Nadal threatening more violence if they don't get a conviction and trashing Nixon.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 1050
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 5:52:30 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		As to your continued whining about the other case, notice that the cop was fired from his job and an arbitrator ordered him reinstated. That means that not just the local DA found the shooting justified so did the independent arbitrator hired by the police force. That's two separate investigations that both found the same way. Also note that the "bereaved" family has yet to try filing a wrongful death suit. If they really thought they had a case they would have sued now wouldn't they?

I realize that you don't understand the meaning of the word whining as you use it as to describe disagreeing with you. But you have never said that if this case ends in acquittal or no charges whether you will still say guilt or innocence is determined in court. That is why the other case is relevant.
As for still whining you still try to prove guilt went the COURTS determined evidence over two years ago. We are still at the courts have the final word...as long as they agree with you. You are already whining about a fix in this case because the Grand Jury hasn't ruled for changes fast enough to suit you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1051
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 5:53:35 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The place for guilt or innocence to be determined is in a court room. There is more than enough evidence to bring charges. That you don't understand that is part of the problem.

Let's see I have said to wait to make up our minds till we see all the evidence .
You say that if they don't convict him it is a coverup and that the problem is that I don't understand that guilt is determined in the court room? You don't understand that the cop haters often twist the evidence for the public and we don't have everything available to us and that there may be compelling evidence we don't have that will clear Wilson. You have made it clear that in your flawless opinion the trial is a waste of time and we should move right on to sentencing. In light of your solid support of a black cop shooting a white may who was siting in his car and a white cop shooting a white kid for opening the door if they don't charge Wilson are you man enough to say that justice has been done? I know the answer but I want to hear you be man enough to admit it. If he is cleared you will be whining about this two years from now just like you still try to prove that Zimmerman was guilty. The courts have spoken in that one and in the Pinckerton case but you refuse to accept it because you are so much smarter than anyone who disagrees with you.

The courts words are final, as long as they agree with you.

If there is compelling evidence then present it publicly. Hold a probable cause hearing in open court. A grand jury is clearly being used to hide the guy being let off.

You are simply making shit up and refusing to acknowledge that the right wing nut job sites you read are not giving you the whole story.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 1052
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 5:54:54 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I see... Why worry about the innocent until proven guilty crap... just string the bastard up.



Where did I ever write anything like that?
A grand jury is not the place where innocence is determined.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 1053
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 6:00:14 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

As to your continued whining about the other case, notice that the cop was fired from his job and an arbitrator ordered him reinstated. That means that not just the local DA found the shooting justified so did the independent arbitrator hired by the police force. That's two separate investigations that both found the same way. Also note that the "bereaved" family has yet to try filing a wrongful death suit. If they really thought they had a case they would have sued now wouldn't they?

I realize that you don't understand the meaning of the word whining as you use it as to describe disagreeing with you. But you have never said that if this case ends in acquittal or no charges whether you will still say guilt or innocence is determined in court. That is why the other case is relevant.
As for still whining you still try to prove guilt went the COURTS determined evidence over two years ago. We are still at the courts have the final word...as long as they agree with you. You are already whining about a fix in this case because the Grand Jury hasn't ruled for changes fast enough to suit you.

No dumbass. You're whining because you keep bringing up the same matter over and over again. That is whining. You're like a 4 year old.

And the point I'm making is the courts won't have a chance to establish this cops guilt or innocence if the prosecutor puts the fix in at the grand jury stage. As every one knows grand jury's always indict so if it doesn't there is a reason and that reason is the prosecutor didn't want them to. The grand jury in question has been handling dozens of cases per day and has never yet refused to return any indictment requested but suddenly this one case needs multiple days of testimony and the indictment is in doubt?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 1054
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 6:04:07 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The place for guilt or innocence to be determined is in a court room. There is more than enough evidence to bring charges. That you don't understand that is part of the problem.

Let's see I have said to wait to make up our minds till we see all the evidence .
You say that if they don't convict him it is a coverup and that the problem is that I don't understand that guilt is determined in the court room? You don't understand that the cop haters often twist the evidence for the public and we don't have everything available to us and that there may be compelling evidence we don't have that will clear Wilson. You have made it clear that in your flawless opinion the trial is a waste of time and we should move right on to sentencing. In light of your solid support of a black cop shooting a white may who was siting in his car and a white cop shooting a white kid for opening the door if they don't charge Wilson are you man enough to say that justice has been done? I know the answer but I want to hear you be man enough to admit it. If he is cleared you will be whining about this two years from now just like you still try to prove that Zimmerman was guilty. The courts have spoken in that one and in the Pinckerton case but you refuse to accept it because you are so much smarter than anyone who disagrees with you.

The courts words are final, as long as they agree with you.

If there is compelling evidence then present it publicly. Hold a probable cause hearing in open court. A grand jury is clearly being used to hide the guy being let off.

You are simply making shit up and refusing to acknowledge that the right wing nut job sites you read are not giving you the whole story.

A you want the grand jury to be open court and thus destroy what few rights the defendant has in a Grand Jury. And let's not miss a chance to intimidate anyone with the gall to imply that Wilson is not a mad dog racist murderer.
B What kind of a moron believes that "we don't have all the evidence yet" means they believe "right wing nut job sites" have given the whole story.
Since the concept is difficult for you I will explain it "we don't have all the evidence yet" means we don't have all the evidence yet, regardless of what left wing nut jobs sites tell you.

I'll bet you think Maria Chappelle-Nadal is just interested in Justice.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1055
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 7:35:07 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Give me a break... ArchCity Defenders... they are crap...

HERE are to good figures with graphs for you to check out... the real unbiased figures..

Butch

Arch city defenders provide lawyers to indigent people in need of such. What do you find so terrible about that? They document some serious abuses in that report you dismiss.


The report was persuasive and informative. I passed it around to about 50 other people after you posted it.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1056
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 7:37:26 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I see... Why worry about the innocent until proven guilty crap... just string the bastard up.



Where did I ever write anything like that?
A grand jury is not the place where innocence is determined.

You started off proclaiming him guilty. Don't you read your own posts.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1057
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 7:41:09 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		And the point I'm making is the courts won't have a chance to establish this cops guilt or innocence if the prosecutor puts the fix in at the grand jury stage. As every one knows grand jury's always indict so if it doesn't there is a reason and that reason is the prosecutor didn't want them to. The grand jury in question has been handling dozens of cases per day and has never yet refused to return any indictment requested but suddenly this one case needs multiple days of testimony and the indictment is in doubt?

Sorry wrong again Grand juries do not always indict, if they did why bother with them.
My wife was on a grand jury that virtually laughed the prosecutor out of the room.
And of course by your "reasoning" if they don't indict it means the jury was fixed. Has it even occurred to you that maybe they are being very, very careful? I know you wouldn't because "grand juries always indict" anyway so details don't matter, it's just a rubber stamp. But I, and anyone else who thinks would.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/22/2014 7:46:21 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1058
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 8:00:23 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A grand jury is not the place where innocence is determined.



That's an interesting take. Since innocence is presumed in our system, and a grand jury decides if there is even enough evidence to warrant pursuing a challenge of that presumption, I'd have to call your position horseshit.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1059
RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/22/2014 8:13:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It could be the place where they decide not to indict... then he would be free from prosecution ... I asked if you would abide by their decision.

You said hell no... what else can I think?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/22/2014 8:14:49 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 1060
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