quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

-FR-

There is a lot of bantering about a lot of things…should the cops have used guns or not used guns , did they stop too close to Powell when they got out of their car or not, etc. etc…

Personally, my own opinion is that for the most part the cops handled the situation as well as could be expected, given the short interval between when they pulled up and when the shooting started. It’s AFTER the shooting started that I personally question.

In the video I counted 9 shots. Powell was hit and on the ground after the first four. At that point he was pretty well incapacitated, and not knowing exactly where he had been hit with those first four it is hard to say whether he might have lived or not. But when he is shot 5 more times AFTER he is already down it seems to be decreasing his likelihood of survival with every shot.

It is due to those last 5 shots that I have to question the professionalism of these cops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Sub in whatever they did have on hand. What they had or didn't have wasn't the main thrust of what I was getting at though . People have the luxury of Monday morning quarterbacking what occurred without the pressure or danger faced by the people in the area at the time of this shooting. Sometimes there unfortunately just isnt the time to debate between officers the pros and cons of each single piece of equipment they have on hand at the moment.

People would be screaming for blood if the cops stood around debating what they should do about Powell and someone else died because of that hesitation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

This is the bit I was referring to... before they arrived, they couldn't try to second-guess what was happening; hence the 12-15 seconds in total because anything before their arrival was unknown and they had to assess the situation once they got there. Which, for the officers in question, those 12-15 seconds is all they had.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

This is the bit I was referring to... before they arrived, they couldn't try to second-guess what was happening; hence the 12-15 seconds in total because anything before their arrival was unknown and they had to assess the situation once they got there. Which, for the officers in question, those 12-15 seconds is all they had.

They are responding to an armed robbery call, a guy with a knife. Second guessing for a police officer isn't always a luxury that they have. Second guessing a situation can get you killed.

I don't think in a 12-15 second time frame you can make a quick enough decision in order to evaluate a suspect to determine if he has ulterior motives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

This is the bit I was referring to... before they arrived, they couldn't try to second-guess what was happening; hence the 12-15 seconds in total because anything before their arrival was unknown and they had to assess the situation once they got there. Which, for the officers in question, those 12-15 seconds is all they had.

They are responding to an armed robbery call, a guy with a knife. Second guessing for a police officer isn't always a luxury that they have. Second guessing a situation can get you killed.

I don't think in a 12-15 second time frame you can make a quick enough decision in order to evaluate a suspect to determine if he has ulterior motives.

And that's why, being in a car, they could easily have moved a little distance away and re-evaluated the situation.
They chose to shoot it out instead... and killed him.

That is why I don't think they even considered other, non-lethal, options.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

And that's why, being in a car, they could easily have moved a little distance away and re-evaluated the situation.
They chose to shoot it out instead... and killed him.

That is why I don't think they even considered other, non-lethal, options.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

This is the bit I was referring to... before they arrived, they couldn't try to second-guess what was happening; hence the 12-15 seconds in total because anything before their arrival was unknown and they had to assess the situation once they got there. Which, for the officers in question, those 12-15 seconds is all they had.

They are responding to an armed robbery call, a guy with a knife. Second guessing for a police officer isn't always a luxury that they have. Second guessing a situation can get you killed.

I don't think in a 12-15 second time frame you can make a quick enough decision in order to evaluate a suspect to determine if he has ulterior motives.

And that's why, being in a car, they could easily have moved a little distance away and re-evaluated the situation.
They chose to shoot it out instead... and killed him.

That is why I don't think they even considered other, non-lethal, options.

you just love the run away option don't you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

This is the bit I was referring to... before they arrived, they couldn't try to second-guess what was happening; hence the 12-15 seconds in total because anything before their arrival was unknown and they had to assess the situation once they got there. Which, for the officers in question, those 12-15 seconds is all they had.

They are responding to an armed robbery call, a guy with a knife. Second guessing for a police officer isn't always a luxury that they have. Second guessing a situation can get you killed.

I don't think in a 12-15 second time frame you can make a quick enough decision in order to evaluate a suspect to determine if he has ulterior motives.

And that's why, being in a car, they could easily have moved a little distance away and re-evaluated the situation.
They chose to shoot it out instead... and killed him.

That is why I don't think they even considered other, non-lethal, options.

you just love the run away option don't you?

Yep. because -
1) it's usually very easy to do;
2) it generally preserves lives;
3) it's a generally accepted good all-round tactic taught by police and forces around the globe.

You got a good reason to shoot first and ask questions later - other than your own myopic notions of self-preservation at all costs??

But of course, you don't understand or accept tactical retreat do you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You don't understand that they were answering a armed robbery call do you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Waiting down the street doesn't cut it when lives are in danger.
Literally what they ran into was an ambush.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You also cannot seem to comprehend that they didn't shoot first and ask questions later. Even after they realized it was an ambush they gave him multiple chances to live, He chose to ambush them. He ignored their warnings. It was he, and not they, who determined the outcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You don't understand that they were answering a armed robbery call do you.

I perfectly understand that it was an ambush.
That sort of thing happens here too, y'anno!
But very rarely do people get shot over here, let alone killed - even when armed units attend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Waiting down the street doesn't cut it when lives are in danger.
Literally what they ran into was an ambush.

And?
It happens here, and in Canada, and Australia, and many other places.
The difference is, only in the US are guns and death the usual outcome of such encounters.

And yes, waiting down the street, or backing up out of harm's way is the usual practice elsewhere outside of the US.
As a result, we have far fewer gun deaths even when there are armed assailants and armed police involved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You also cannot seem to comprehend that they didn't shoot first and ask questions later. Even after they realized it was an ambush they gave him multiple chances to live, He chose to ambush them. He ignored their warnings. It was he, and not they, who determined the outcome.

Who pulled the fucking trigger. Huh????

Sorry, there are NO words on this planet that would etice most armed officers (outside of the US) that would take that excuse as a cue to killing someone.
That's a really fucked-up PoV... and stupidly myopic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
He didn't just use words, he advanced on them. Now I realize that you think they should have retreated all the way to Illinois.
Would you be happy if while they were retreating he had killed a civilian?
How about if when they closed with nightsticks he had killed one of the cops?
That would make you feel great because the only possible evil here is that the cops hurt that poor unfortunate man who just needed help and understanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
He didn't just use words, he advanced on them. Now I realize that you think they should have retreated all the way to Illinois.
Would you be happy if while they were retreating he had killed a civilian?
How about if when they closed with nightsticks he had killed one of the cops?
That would make you feel great because the only possible evil here is that the cops hurt that poor unfortunate man who just needed help and understanding.

And I re-iterate: I saw nothing in that video that warranted his death by shooting.

"you think they should have retreated all the way to Illinois"
Your words, not mine.
I said a few yards - not miles or hundreds of miles.
You doo like to put the dramatics into people's posts!

There were no civilians within decent close quarters that he could have hurt.

Are you saying that a cop and his nightstick are sooo badly trained two of them can't take out a knife-wielding civilian out in the open without getting themselves killed in the process??
Maan... you have a very weird sense of the super-human attackers in the US.
The police train for this very situation; but you seem to think they'd get killed.

Ergo: you feel justified that they took all possible precautions before choosing to gun him down - seven shots in succession followed by two more, just to make sure he was dead.


Nope. I don't see it as justified at all. Sorry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Tactical retreat would be great IF this particular incident took place in a bubble where no one else was at any sort of risk. Id even go on record as saying Id be all for it...but for one reason. We aren't talking Stephen King's Under The Dome here. We're talking a neighborhood street where any person just going about their day could have come into contact with what clearly a highly agitated individual not thinking rationally (an example is yelling "shoot me" and moving towards folks who could in fact actually shoot you) and armed with a weapon that can harm or even kill depending on where a person is stabbed. The cops might have had Kevlar and I know there had already been a debate over knives versus Kevlar, but average citizens don't go strolling around wearing it. Had someone else been hurt or killed while the two officers in question were driving all over creation to put enough space between them and him, people would be screaming about why those asshole cops didn't do anything.

I wish it hadn't happened either. It's never good to see a life cut short for any reason. And I'll readily admit that cops can screw up when it comes to dealing with people who have any sort of mental crisis or illness going on. But those cops were entrusted with trying to preserve a whole lot of lives...theirs, their partner's, Powell's if they could, AND the lives of the citizens who were in the area. Sadly Powell didn't leave many choices for a favorable outcome. If you or your loved one's happened to be in the neighborhood that day, would you be willing to die or have them die so that Powell could have lived?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Nightsticks go out the window when the criminal when the criminal deploys lethal force. I didn't say they would have been killed, I said they could have been injured or killed. Clearly that is ok with you, they were only cops, not like they were people.
Since you are so brilliant how did the cops know there weren't people inside the store bleeding to death when they arrived? After all they were answering an armed robbery call. I don't know how nice criminals in Briton are but here they tend to get upset when you report them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

If only it were that simple though, FD.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

So you're saying that in all places all over the world outside of the US, even when the police are armed to the teeth, that absolutely no one ever does at the hands of the police? Ever?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Nightsticks go out the window when the criminal when the criminal deploys lethal force. I didn't say they would have been killed, I said they could have been injured or killed. Clearly that is ok with you, they were only cops, not like they were people.
Since you are so brilliant how did the cops know there weren't people inside the store bleeding to death when they arrived? After all they were answering an armed robbery call. I don't know how nice criminals in Briton are but here they tend to get upset when you report them.

Where was the lethal force??? I didn't see any except for the cops opening fire.
Potential threat, yes. But no lethal force.
And if your police force aren't trained enough to disable a kife-wielding attacker, they shouldn't be out there. Our police, like many other forces, do this regularly and without guns.

They didn't know.
But, as usual, you like to throw in "what if's" and Maybe's" that weren't obvious at the time just to muddy the waters.
There weren't. Simple as that.

Criminals are everywhere and I would suggest that most have a similar mindset.
Powell was obviously deranged. That was evident from his words and actions right off the bat.
That, in and of itself, should have called for different tactics.
Those officers chose to kill him instead.