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RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:33:45 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I am sure if you had a child who had emotional problems and was confronted by the authorities like this you would hold the same opinion.
On the other hand I think that two cops with body armor and night sticks should be more than a match for the individual they murdered.




I am sure you have zero qualifications to speak for me.

A person with half the knowledge he claims would know that
A kevlar provides very little protection against stabs and limited protection against slashes.
B the nightsticks likely would have been good enough, if the cops didn't mind being cut a little.
C the cops first objective would be to get home in one piece, not to give the guy a fair fight.
D insisting on making it a fair fight is calling for a return to the TV west where the toughest guy was the "law" regardless of the law.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:37:53 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

A kevlar provides very little protection against stabs and limited protection against slashes.


Interesting. That is somewhat counterintuitive to me. Can you provide links, Bama?

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RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:38:02 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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As much as I usually disagree with Thompson, he does have a point.... unfortunately.

We are all judging Powell with straight-thinking, rational minds.
This may not have been how Powell was and quite likely, not fully aware of the 'usual' circumstances of his actions.

Suicide by cop? Possibly.
But there could have been a different outcome.
It's not always best to shoot first and ask questions later - at least it shouldn't be.
I'm sure it was quite possible to take him down without killing him.

And this is precisely what is very wrong with the gun culture of the US.
Far too many unnecessary gun deaths because it's the easy way out.


_____________________________

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:40:46 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD

Ken how typical of you to forget that I once faced down a person intent on committing 4-6 murders when I was unarmed so your can take you idiotic anti gun fantasy and shove it.

You have also told us how you were married to a black woman.
You have told us many times about how brave you are with your guns and dogs.
In fact no one on this board has told us of his bravery as often as you have.


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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:42:41 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Gauge

It is fucking horrible what happened to this guy. He basically killed himself,


The vidio I saw does not show him shooting himself. It shows the cops shooting him. Do you have a link to the one where the victim is the shooter?





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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:45:45 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

As much as I usually disagree with Thompson, he does have a point.... unfortunately.

One has to wonder why you feel badly agreeing with the truth?


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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:48:02 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

A kevlar provides very little protection against stabs and limited protection against slashes.


Interesting. That is somewhat counterintuitive to me. Can you provide links, Bama?

I was surprised when I learned this too.
Kevlar is constructed on a principal much like chain mail. As you may know it stopped some types of weapons very well and others such as arrows very poorly. It will stop a blunt object well as it slows it down. You can still get broken ribs from a large bore hand gun at close range, most rifle rounds will go through the level of armor street cops wear and since a knife depends on a point (particularly when stabbing) it is fairly useless. As for links just google kevlar,virtually any site that tells about it will confirm everything I said. For anyone who knows much about guns (gun nuts to you) this is basic common knowledge, slightly more obscure than which end the bullets come out of.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:51:08 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD

A person with half the knowledge he claims would know that
A kevlar provides very little protection against stabs and limited protection against slashes.

That must be why butchers use a kevlar glove on their non cutting hand.

B the nightsticks likely would have been good enough, if the cops didn't mind being cut a little.

Just how does a knife get past a two foot long baton?


C the cops first objective would be to get home in one piece, not to give the guy a fair fight.

I thought their job was to protect and serve...well now that we know just give them tommy guns and mow down anyone who does not drop to the ground on command.


D insisting on making it a fair fight is calling for a return to the TV west where the toughest guy was the "law" regardless of the law.

You are the only moron calling for a fair fight dumb ass so do not lay that lame ass shit anyplace except on your plate. I already pointed out how two men with batons take down any single individual with a phoquing steak knife.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 4:59:52 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD


I was surprised when I learned this too.
Kevlar is constructed on a principal much like chain mail. As you may know it stopped some types of weapons very well and others such as arrows very poorly. It will stop a blunt object well as it slows it down. You can still get broken ribs from a large bore hand gun at close range, most rifle rounds will go through the level of armor street cops wear and since a knife depends on a point (particularly when stabbing) it is fairly useless. As for links just google kevlar,virtually any site that tells about it will confirm everything I said. For anyone who knows much about guns (gun nuts to you) this is basic common knowledge, slightly more obscure than which end the bullets come out of.

Do you just open your mouth to take a shit?



Stab armor and combination stab-ballistic armor[edit]

Early "ice pick" test[edit]

In the mid-1980s the state of California Department of Corrections issued a requirement for a body armor using a commercial ice pick as the test penetrator. The test method attempted to simulate the capacity of a human attacker to deliver impact energy with their upper body. As was later shown by the work of the former British PSDB, this test over stated the capacity of human attackers. The test used a drop mass or sabot that carried the ice pick. Using gravitational force, the height of the drop mass above the vest was proportional to the impact energy. This test specified 109 joules (81 ft·lbf) of energy and a 7.3 kg (16 lb) drop mass with a drop height of 153 cm (60 in).

The ice pick has a 4 mm (0.16 in) diameter with a sharp tip with a 5.4 m/s (17 ft/s) terminal velocity in the test. The California standard did not include knife or cutting edge weapons in the test protocol. The test method used the oil/clay (Roma Plastilena) tissue simulant as a test backing. In this early phase only titanium and steel plate offerings were successful in addressing this requirement. Point Blank developed the first ice pick certified offerings for CA Department of Corrections in shaped titanium sheet metal. Vests of this type are still in service in US corrections facilities as of 2008.

Beginning in the early 1990s, an optional test method was approved by California which permitted the use of 10% ballistic gelatin as a replacement for Roma clay. The transition from hard, dense clay-based Roma to soft low-density gelatin allowed all textile solutions to meet this attack energy requirement. Soft all textile “ice pick” vests began to be adopted by California and other US states as a result of this migration in the test methods. It is important for users to understand that the smooth, round tip of the ice pick does not cut fiber on impact and this permits the use of textile based vests for this application.

The earliest of these “all” fabric vests designed to address this ice pick test was Warwick Mills’s TurtleSkin ultra tightly woven para-aramid fabric with a patent filed in 1993.[50] Shortly after the TurtleSkin work, in 1995 DuPont patented a medium density fabric that was designated as Kevlar Correctional.[51] It should be noted that these textile materials do not have equal performance with cutting-edge threats and these certifications were only with ice pick and were not tested with knives.

Knife standards developed by HOSDB-Stab and Slash[edit]

Parallel to the US development of “ice pick” vests, the British police, PSDB, was working on standards for knife-resistant body armor. Their program adopted a rigorous scientific approach and collected data on human attack capacity.[52] Their ergonomic study suggested three levels of threat: 25, 35 and 45 joules of impact energy. In addition to impact energy attack, velocities were measured and were found to be 10–20 m/s (much faster than the California test). Two commercial knives were selected for use in this PSDB test method. In order to test at a representative velocity, an air cannon method was developed to propel the knife and sabot at the vest target using compressed air. In this first version, the PSDB ’93 test also used oil/clay materials as the tissue simulant backing. The introduction of knives which cut fiber and a hard-dense test backing required stab vest manufacturers to use metallic components in their vest designs to address this more rigorous standard. The current standard HOSDB Body Armour Standards for UK Police (2007) Part 3: Knife and Spike Resistance is harmonized with the US NIJ OO15 standard, use a drop test method and use a composite foam backing as a tissue simulant. Both the HOSDB and the NIJ test now specify engineered blades, double-edged S1 and single-edge P1 as well as the spike.

In addition to the stab standards, HOSDB has developed a standard for slash resistance (2006). This standard, like the stab standards, is based on drop testing with a test knife in a mounting of controlled mass. The slash test uses the Stanley Utility knife or box cutter blades. The slash standard tests the cut resistance of the armor panel parallel to the direction of blade travel. The test equipment measures the force at the instant the blade tip produces a sustained slash through the vest. The criteria require that slash failure of the armor be greater than 80 newtons of force.[53]

Combination stab and ballistic vests[edit]

Vests that combined stab and ballistic protection were a significant innovation in the 1990s period of vest development. The starting point for this development were the ballistic-only offerings of that time using NIJ Level 2A, 2, and 3A or HOSDB HG 1 and 2, with compliant ballistic vest products being manufactured with areal densities of between 5.5 and 6 kg/m² (1.1 and 1.2 lb/ft² or 18 and 20 oz/ft²). However police forces were evaluating their “street threats” and requiring vests with both knife and ballistic protection. This multi-threat approach is common in the United Kingdom and other European countries and is less popular in the USA. Unfortunately for multi-threat users, the metallic array and chainmail systems that were necessary to defeat the test blades offered little ballistic performance. The multi-threat vests have areal densities are close to the sum of the two solutions separately. These vests have mass values in the 7.5–8.5 kg/m² (1.55–1.75 lb/ft²) range. Ref (NIJ and HOSDB certification listings). Rolls Royce Composites -Megit and Highmark produced metallic array systems to address this HOSDB standard. These designs were used extensively by the London Metropolitan Police Service and other agencies in the United Kingdom.

Standards update US and UK[edit]





Metropolitan Police officers supervising World Cup, 2006
As vest manufactures and the specifying authorities worked with these standards, the UK and US Standards teams began a collaboration on test methods.[54] A number of issues with the first versions of the tests needed to be addressed. The use of commercial knives with inconsistent sharpness and tip shape created problems with test consistency. As a result, two new “engineered blades” were designed that could be manufactured to have reproducible penetrating behavior. The tissue simulants, Roma clay and gelatin, were either unrepresentative of tissue or not practical for the test operators. A composite-foam and hard-rubber test backing was developed as an alternative to address these issues. The drop test method was selected as the baseline for the updated standard over the air cannon option. The drop mass was reduced from the “ice pick test” and a wrist-like soft linkage was engineered into the penetrator-sabot to create a more realistic test impact. These closely related standards were first issued in 2003 as HOSDB 2003 and NIJ 0015. (The Police Scientific Development Branch (PSDB) was renamed the Home Office Scientific Development Branch in 2004.[55]

Stab and spike vests[edit]

These new standards created a focus on Level 1 at 25 joules (18 ft·lbf), Level 2 at 35 J (26 ft·lbf), Level 3 at 45 J (33 ft·lbf) protection as tested with the new engineered knives defined in these test documents. The lowest level of this requirement at 25 joules was addressed by a series of textile products of both wovens, coated wovens and laminated woven materials. All of these materials were based on Para-aramid fiber. The co-efficient of friction for ultra high molecular weigh polyethylene (UHMWPE) prevented its use in this application. The TurtleSkin DiamondCoat and Twaron SRM products addressed this requirement using a combination of Para-Aramid wovens and bonded ceramic grain. These ceramic-coated products do not the flexibility and softness of un-coated textile materials.

For the higher levels of protection L2 and L3, the very aggressive penetration of the small, thin P1 blade has resulted in the continued use of metallic components in stab armor. In Germany, Mehler Vario Systems have developed sophisticated hybrid vests of woven para-aramid and chain mail their solution was selected by the London Metro Police. Another German company BSST, in cooperation with Warwick Mills, has developed a system to meet the ballistic-stab requirement using Dyneema laminate and an advanced metallic-array system, TurtleSkin MFA. This system is currently implemented in the Netherlands. The trend in multi threat armor continues with requirements for needle protection in the Draft ISO prEN ISO 14876 norm. In many countries there is also an interest to combine military style explosive fragmentation protection with bullet-ballistics and stab requirements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest#Stab_armor_and_combination_stab-ballistic_armor

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 5:12:52 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

As much as I usually disagree with Thompson, he does have a point.... unfortunately.

We are all judging Powell with straight-thinking, rational minds.
This may not have been how Powell was and quite likely, not fully aware of the 'usual' circumstances of his actions.

Suicide by cop? Possibly.
But there could have been a different outcome.
It's not always best to shoot first and ask questions later - at least it shouldn't be.
I'm sure it was quite possible to take him down without killing him.

And this is precisely what is very wrong with the gun culture of the US.
Far too many unnecessary gun deaths because it's the easy way out.


You are aware are you not that at the point when they fired he was so close that they no longer had enough space to keep him from stabbing them.
You have to know that they tried talking to him first.
Were they supposed to keep talking till he actually stabbed one of them?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 5:17:31 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

As much as I usually disagree with Thompson, he does have a point.... unfortunately.

We are all judging Powell with straight-thinking, rational minds.
This may not have been how Powell was and quite likely, not fully aware of the 'usual' circumstances of his actions.

Suicide by cop? Possibly.
But there could have been a different outcome.
It's not always best to shoot first and ask questions later - at least it shouldn't be.
I'm sure it was quite possible to take him down without killing him.

And this is precisely what is very wrong with the gun culture of the US.
Far too many unnecessary gun deaths because it's the easy way out.


You are aware are you not that at the point when they fired he was so close that they no longer had enough space to keep him from stabbing them.
You have to know that they tried talking to him first.
Were they supposed to keep talking till he actually stabbed one of them?


can I just copy in something I wrote earlier that you have ignored?

so do you really think that there were only 2 ways that this confrontation could have been concluded?

Either the cops shot the guy multiple times or the cops got stabbed?

No other options?

I guess the cops were unaware of the car they had just got out of that could have been used?

I guess the cops were unaware of the big open empty street behind them that could have been used?

I guess the cops were unaware of all the back up which arrived less than 2 minutes after they did which could have been used?

I guess the cops were unaware of the non lethal equipment at their disposal which could have been used?

Fair enough then, I guess the only option was to get out of the car, draw their guns and kill him.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 5:23:51 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

As much as I usually disagree with Thompson, he does have a point.... unfortunately.

We are all judging Powell with straight-thinking, rational minds.
This may not have been how Powell was and quite likely, not fully aware of the 'usual' circumstances of his actions.

Suicide by cop? Possibly.
But there could have been a different outcome.
It's not always best to shoot first and ask questions later - at least it shouldn't be.
I'm sure it was quite possible to take him down without killing him.

And this is precisely what is very wrong with the gun culture of the US.
Far too many unnecessary gun deaths because it's the easy way out.


You are aware are you not that at the point when they fired he was so close that they no longer had enough space to keep him from stabbing them.
You have to know that they tried talking to him first.
Were they supposed to keep talking till he actually stabbed one of them?


can I just copy in something I wrote earlier that you have ignored?

so do you really think that there were only 2 ways that this confrontation could have been concluded?

Either the cops shot the guy multiple times or the cops got stabbed?

No other options?

I guess the cops were unaware of the car they had just got out of that could have been used?

I guess the cops were unaware of the big open empty street behind them that could have been used?

I guess the cops were unaware of all the back up which arrived less than 2 minutes after they did which could have been used?

I guess the cops were unaware of the non lethal equipment at their disposal which could have been used?

Fair enough then, I guess the only option was to get out of the car, draw their guns and kill him.


I guess you don't know that you can't count on backup till they arrive.
I guess you think that cops should always run from people threatening them, to hell with the civilians that person can turn on.
I guess that you don't know that none of the nonlethal tools at their disposal were not designed to effectively stop someone in this situation.
I guess you don't know that kevlar is virtually useless against a knife.
I did not address your "points" because I didn't what to insult you by pointing out that they were rooted in ignorance. But since you insist.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/26/2014 5:28:49 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 5:29:52 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD

I guess you think that cops should always run from people threatening them,

Like the bundy possie? Would you have backed the cops if they had shot and killed everyone of those criminals who were pointing guns at law enforcement officers?

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 5:32:09 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I guess you don't know that you can't count on backup till they arrive.
I guess you think that cops should always run from people threatening them, to hell with the civilians that person can turn on.
I guess that you don't know that none of the nonlethal tools at their disposal were not designed to effectively stop someone in this situation.


Cops have radios, they would have known that back up was very close

I didn't say always run, you did. The video doesn't show any civilians in close proximity, they had all backed away. In any case he was clearly focused on the cops

They didn't even consider any non lethal tools, they got out the car and drew their weapons.

Again, can you only see 2 options, shoot the guy multiple times or be stabbed?

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 6:05:25 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I guess you don't know that you can't count on backup till they arrive.
I guess you think that cops should always run from people threatening them, to hell with the civilians that person can turn on.
I guess that you don't know that none of the nonlethal tools at their disposal were not designed to effectively stop someone in this situation.


Cops have radios, they would have known that back up was very close

I didn't say always run, you did. The video doesn't show any civilians in close proximity, they had all backed away. In any case he was clearly focused on the cops

They didn't even consider any non lethal tools, they got out the car and drew their weapons.

Again, can you only see 2 options, shoot the guy multiple times or be stabbed?

Again your ignorance is on display.
A you wanted them to hide in the car or back off. To anyone not blinded by bias that is running away.
B They were answering an armed robbery call, of course they came out with guns drawn. If you were in the store and it was an armed robbery instead of bait to get cops there bet you would be delighted to see the cops sitting in their car waiting for backup.
C A man is five feet away threatening you with a knife and you are going to make a call on your radio, either you don't understand these things in the least or you are an idiot.
D They didn't have tasers (which contrary to popular belief don't always stop someone). They may have had pepper spray but it is less effective than tasers. Nightsticks, you think they are obligated to give him a better chance of stabbing them
E Backup in two minutes, they could both have been dead by that time.
F Powell and not the cops decided that lethal weapons were to be used. Non lethal weapons are for when no ones life is in danger.
G Powell made it clear that he intended to stab the cops unless they shot him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 6:07:39 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps before you get both feet in your mouth at the same time you might want try that out. Get your best steak knife and give it a shot. I want to see your face when you try to stuff that knife into a kevlar vest. Actually I want to see your knife hand after you try it. I will remember to bring a comprssion bandage.



Instead of trying to prove how infinitely clever you are, you should try reading my posts in context, as well as for content.

_____________________________

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I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 6:13:44 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps before you get both feet in your mouth at the same time you might want try that out. Get your best steak knife and give it a shot. I want to see your face when you try to stuff that knife into a kevlar vest. Actually I want to see your knife hand after you try it. I will remember to bring a comprssion bandage.



Instead of trying to prove how infinitely clever you are, you should try reading my posts in context, as well as for content.

All the experts other than thompsonx disagree with him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 6:16:00 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Gauge

Instead of trying to prove how infinitely clever you are,

I do not have to prove how infinitely clever I am...my post proclaim it loudly and clearly.


you should try reading my posts in context, as well as for content.

I have and I do but so far my knowledge of body armor seems to be light years ahead of you and most everyone on this board. You did notice the section I posted about how body armor does in fact stop knife attacks both slashing and stabing?
I used to wear body armor for a living so please do not pretend to know something you do not.



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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 6:20:09 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So it would appear that if it were your child your opinion would change? Because if it is not as I sugested then it is the opposite. Glad to know that you value your childs life more than you do a black mans.



I know how to recognize someone who is baiting me, and you are trying your best. It is not going to work.

Anyone that can say that they wouldn't value their own child's life over another person's life is either lying or shouldn't be a parent. That said, you brought in the man's skin color, not me.

You can think what you want about what value I place on life, but you presume to know something about me that you have no way of knowing.

I am done discussing anything with you. You just like to be contrary for the sake of being contrary and that is nothing new. I am willing to listen to people that make sense, you have ceased making sense to me and I fail to see the value in continuing to reason with someone that is unreasonable.


_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape - 8/26/2014 6:36:47 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So it would appear that if it were your child your opinion would change? Because if it is not as I sugested then it is the opposite. Glad to know that you value your childs life more than you do a black mans.



I know how to recognize someone who is baiting me, and you are trying your best. It is not going to work.


Call it what you will. My point is that your cavilear attitude about the dead man turned around instantly when it might by one of yours laying on the sidewalk with a half dozen bullets in him. Now either deal with your two faced duplicity or step off, it makes no difference to me.


Anyone that can say that they wouldn't value their own child's life over another person's life is either lying or shouldn't be a parent. That said, you brought in the man's skin color, not me.

This thread is about the death of a black man which you diminished by saying he killed himself. When I pointed out that your reaction would be different if it were your child you suddenly copped an attitude.

You can think what you want about what value I place on life, but you presume to know something about me that you have no way of knowing.

Wrong again. I am replying to your words and nothing else.

I am done discussing anything with you.

Good then be gone and stop wasting bandwidth.

You just like to be contrary for the sake of being contrary and that is nothing new.

I am simply pointing out the disingenuous nature of your post.


I am willing to listen to people that make sense, you have ceased making sense to me and I fail to see the value in continuing to reason with someone that is unreasonable.

I cite data that shows that body armor does stop knife attacks and I am being unreasonable?
I point out that gsw will be present at a distance of 1 foot and you choose to ignore your own factual knowledge about gsw and you claim I am unreasonable.




(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 160
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