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RE: Another pointless gun death. - 8/28/2014 10:46:01 AM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		This is a fast reply.

quote:

Bullets and Burgers in northwest Arizona



This is what is wrong with America and their guns. It is the casual nature and passe attitude toward wielding a deadly weapon.

The majority of gun owners are responsible and take owning a weapon very seriously as far as safety goes. Then there are those that will think nothing of handing a child an Uzi because it is cool. I don't care if it is a competent instructor or not, an Uzi doesn't belong in the hand of a kid. If you want to introduce a kid to guns and teach them to shoot, there are plenty of other firearms out there to instruct them with.

When you reduce the use of a weapon to the casual nature of going to a fast-food joint with a shooting range, that is where people have lost their focus.

We have laws that restrict using cars to a certain age, I don't really have a problem with placing restrictions on certain types of firearms until a certain age either.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 10:46:31 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		The USA is happy not to trust its citizens with chocolate...

http://souvenirfinder.com/2014/01/22/kinder-surprise-chocolate-egg-souvenir-fine-illegal-customs/

But until someone digs out a hitherto unpublished amendment to the constitution, the freedom of Americans to enjoy chocolate will always be at risk.



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RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 10:52:31 AM   
Gauge


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Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Finally..."even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Well...no. And by the way, it was an adult life lost. Not a single drop of "precious child" blood was spilled. BUT...even if it had been, why should my rights be trampled on because of some aforementioned dolts pretending to be parents? They took their child to a gun range...I didn't. They put an Uzi in their child's hands...I didn't. Go after the people who committed the appalling behavior, not responsible law-abiding citizens.



Your rights are not being trampled if you are a responsible gun owner. It is the fault of the irresponsible ones that would make an age restriction necessary.

Would you seriously ever think of giving a 9 year old an Uzi to shoot?

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 10:53:23 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		We know of at least two who did, and one of them will never be on this thread.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 10:56:39 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Finally..."even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Well...no. And by the way, it was an adult life lost. Not a single drop of "precious child" blood was spilled. BUT...even if it had been, why should my rights be trampled on because of some aforementioned dolts pretending to be parents? They took their child to a gun range...I didn't. They put an Uzi in their child's hands...I didn't. Go after the people who committed the appalling behavior, not responsible law-abiding citizens.



Your rights are not being trampled if you are a responsible gun owner. It is the fault of the irresponsible ones that would make an age restriction necessary.

Would you seriously ever think of giving a 9 year old an Uzi to shoot?

I read an interview were the range owner said he would have expected the girl to have been restricted to .22s

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 10:58:46 AM   
quizzicalkitten


Posts: 312
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Finally..."even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Well...no. And by the way, it was an adult life lost. Not a single drop of "precious child" blood was spilled. BUT...even if it had been, why should my rights be trampled on because of some aforementioned dolts pretending to be parents? They took their child to a gun range...I didn't. They put an Uzi in their child's hands...I didn't. Go after the people who committed the appalling behavior, not responsible law-abiding citizens.



Your rights are not being trampled if you are a responsible gun owner. It is the fault of the irresponsible ones that would make an age restriction necessary.

Would you seriously ever think of giving a 9 year old an Uzi to shoot?


But history has shown it never stops at just X reason. When one ban is in place over something it s easier to pass bans on other things and the next thing you know no guns are allowed to anyone ever because of something stupid a parent did.

More kids die of ingesting poison but I don't see laws regulating bleach or bug spray? Why because we don't hold every person responsible for one idiots mistake. Allowing a gun ban even if it's reasonable is punishing everyone else for one parents mistake.

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RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 11:12:41 AM   
Gauge


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Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten

But history has shown it never stops at just X reason. When one ban is in place over something it s easier to pass bans on other things and the next thing you know no guns are allowed to anyone ever because of something stupid a parent did.

More kids die of ingesting poison but I don't see laws regulating bleach or bug spray? Why because we don't hold every person responsible for one idiots mistake. Allowing a gun ban even if it's reasonable is punishing everyone else for one parents mistake.



Oh bullshit. The fact is that there are regulations all around you that apply to everyone because of a scant few idiots. This is almost always the case with these overzealous gun owners who decry any form of regulatory legislation. Guns have regulations already. It is so amusing to watch people go, "Well, once we allow one regulation, no one will have guns." which is fucking bullshit.

Why don't we allow a 3 year old to drive? Because we have an age limit on who can legally drive cars, did it lead to people not owning or driving a car? Of course not. I am all for private and responsible gun ownership, the logic that has been drilled into some people by the likes of the NRA is ludicrous. It is the reactionary rhetoric that sells guns.


_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to quizzicalkitten)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 11:18:47 AM   
quizzicalkitten


Posts: 312
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten

But history has shown it never stops at just X reason. When one ban is in place over something it s easier to pass bans on other things and the next thing you know no guns are allowed to anyone ever because of something stupid a parent did.

More kids die of ingesting poison but I don't see laws regulating bleach or bug spray? Why because we don't hold every person responsible for one idiots mistake. Allowing a gun ban even if it's reasonable is punishing everyone else for one parents mistake.



Oh bullshit. The fact is that there are regulations all around you that apply to everyone because of a scant few idiots. This is almost always the case with these overzealous gun owners who decry any form of regulatory legislation. Guns have regulations already. It is so amusing to watch people go, "Well, once we allow one regulation, no one will have guns." which is fucking bullshit.

Why don't we allow a 3 year old to drive? Because we have an age limit on who can legally drive cars, did it lead to people not owning or driving a car? Of course not. I am all for private and responsible gun ownership, the logic that has been drilled into some people by the likes of the NRA is ludicrous. It is the reactionary rhetoric that sells guns.


But a 7 year old can walk into walmart and buy bleach and not a word is said...

And your example is flawed because gasp yes kids still drive underage and get into accidents and die..because you tell them they can't until.... The same with drinking under 21 smoking under 18 buying spray paint and every other age restriction law created....... If it hasn't stopped people from doing the act that was made law as bad... why would another law preventing a similar thing stop it?


(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 11:30:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Then why piss around with laws at all? Drunken driving laws, waste of time. Murder laws, waste of time.

Locks are made to keep the honest people honest.

And if it was against the law for minors to handle automatic weapons, perhaps one or two children across the entire US may not handle automatic weapons, of the millions that will ignore the law.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 11:32:59 AM   
quizzicalkitten


Posts: 312
Status: offline 		The point is Ronnie boy that the laws don't work so what does work. Instead of a bandaid over a hole in a sinking ship how about a solution that works. Why blame everyone for the stupidity of the few.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 11:45:44 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		OK, you dumbass clown, what would be the solution? It has to be constitutional, and meet the equal protections clause.

It would seem that to correct this error, to put automatic weapons into the hands of minors as a felony, punishable by lets say, 20 years and $250000 might slow it down a bit.

Or what you got, since you got whining and no solution?

I can tell you that the ATF will have that ranges (and the dead instructors) machine gun and license to own it, one more off the market. But that dont hardly cover it.



< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/28/2014 11:49:08 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 11:50:22 AM   
Gauge


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Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten

And your example is flawed because gasp yes kids still drive underage and get into accidents and die..because you tell them they can't until.... The same with drinking under 21 smoking under 18 buying spray paint and every other age restriction law created....... If it hasn't stopped people from doing the act that was made law as bad... why would another law preventing a similar thing stop it?



My example isn't flawed simply because people break laws. You seem to think that the lack of regulation and restrictions would cause people to be more responsible? I am not certain what you are getting at and I am trying to understand. How would you solve the problem? Do you believe that an Uzi should freely go into the hands of a 9 year old? Do you think that a 9 year old is responsible enough and has enough physical control to handle such a weapon?

Using your logic, then why can't mentally ill people own guns? Is it because of the few that have used them in heinous crimes? Do you think it is a good idea for mentally ill people to own guns simply because a few of the millions of mentally ill people out there have committed crimes with firearms?

I am not badgering you, I want to understand what it is you are telling me and why.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to quizzicalkitten)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:15:41 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR

Cars and poisons and pools, fires, stabbings, beatings, domestic abuse, drugs, rapes, accidents with power tools ,stupid parents, abusive parents, negligent adults, ignorant neighbours and curious children happen everywhere, in every country every day.
Humans are stupid.
There are regulations made covering safety issues when they become problematic or a solution is found to lessen the harm caused.
That a huge number of people dont get why others get upset angry, passionate about the pointless preventable deaths caused by idiots with guns. And especially those who have no desire to see a change in laws, OR enforcement of laws 7in place to lessen the harm done by idiots with guns is selfish, shortsighted and ignorant especially when they pretend (to themselves mostly) they have never done anything stupid/careless or thoughtless in their lives.

And yet...for all those regulations and laws, people die. Children die. In most cases, irresponsible behavior on the part of children masquerading as adults is involved.

Having a swimming pool or a car or drugs is not a right.
Having a gun is. Because it is, some folks get upset when others argue as if it is the gun's fault rather than the person(s) handling it. And part of that is because those who argue most vociferously against guns do not come to these boards ranting when a child is killed by some parent stoked on drugs. They don't come ranting on the boards when some child drowns in a bathtub, left unattended by a young mother on her cell phone. They don't come ranting on the boards when some poor old gentleman is knocked unconscious ...and later dies... by some young thug playing the knock-out game. And yet...let a tragedy occur where a gun is involved and suddenly you have those like tweakabelle saying that no 2nd Amendment right is worth a drop of "precious child" blood. I don't like to assume because that's usually where I am proved wrong but I would be willing to bet that for tweakabelle...And some others...that statement would be extended to mean no drop of precious HUMAN blood.

The bigger problem comes about when they say "reasonable" regulations and then want to try and wrap up a right in a more restrictive package than anything else just waiting for a tragedy. Do I, as a gun owner, think that handing over an Uzi to a 9 year old is smart? Responsible? No. Nor do most of the gun rights proponents on this thread. So, punish the parents under child abuse statutes or make a law restricting the age of someone that is allowed to use an Uzi. The problem comes about when you want to restrict my access to one. If I have gone through a background check, taken a gun safety course and don't use it illegally, it is my right to have it. I've gone through more vetting to own a gun than I did to own a car which can be just as dangerous. More than I went through to have a child. Some people say that's a right too but I don't see anti-gun people lining up to demand background checks on those folks, despite the fact that there are a helluva lot more children killed through neglect and abuse every year than there are children killed by irresponsible gun owners.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 8/28/2014 12:37:48 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:15:58 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten

But history has shown it never stops at just X reason. When one ban is in place over something it s easier to pass bans on other things and the next thing you know no guns are allowed to anyone ever because of something stupid a parent did.

More kids die of ingesting poison but I don't see laws regulating bleach or bug spray? Why because we don't hold every person responsible for one idiots mistake. Allowing a gun ban even if it's reasonable is punishing everyone else for one parents mistake.



Oh bullshit. The fact is that there are regulations all around you that apply to everyone because of a scant few idiots. This is almost always the case with these overzealous gun owners who decry any form of regulatory legislation. Guns have regulations already. It is so amusing to watch people go, "Well, once we allow one regulation, no one will have guns." which is fucking bullshit.

Why don't we allow a 3 year old to drive? Because we have an age limit on who can legally drive cars, did it lead to people not owning or driving a car? Of course not. I am all for private and responsible gun ownership, the logic that has been drilled into some people by the likes of the NRA is ludicrous. It is the reactionary rhetoric that sells guns.


Preventing accidents like this would require that we ban stupid.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:18:13 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: Gauge

Do you believe that an Uzi should freely go into the hands of a 9 year old?

I do not believe that any weapon should go into the hands of a minor without direct supervision of a qualified adult.


Do you think that a 9 year old is responsible enough

See above.


and has enough physical control to handle such a weapon?

What is there about a 9mm auto loader that you feel is too difficult for an average size 9 year old?

Using your logic, then why can't mentally ill people own guns?


Because they are prohibited by law from such.




(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:28:29 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

The bigger problem comes about when they say "reasonable" regulations and then want to try and wrap up a right in a more restrictive package than anything else just waiting for a tragedy. Do I, as a gun owner, think that handing over an Uzi to a 9 year old is smart? Responsible? No. Nor do most of the gun rights proponents on this thread. So, punish the parents under child abuse statutes or make a as restricting the age of someone that is allowed to use an Uzi.



That is the regulation I am talking about, place an age restriction on weapons like an Uzi. I also say punish the parents to the full extent of the law. Like I said, I am all for responsible gun ownership, and they are the majority, not the minority.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:30:03 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Preventing accidents like this would require that we ban stupid.



I am all for that. Or we could just make stupidity painful.

My comical way to do this would be to remove all the warning labels off of everything and then wait.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:42:41 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Preventing accidents like this would require that we ban stupid.



I am all for that. Or we could just make stupidity painful.

My comical way to do this would be to remove all the warning labels off of everything and then wait.

Lazerath Long "the only crime should be stupidity, the penalty should be death, and should be administered instantly" only problem is who gets to decide what's stupid.
Over regulation leads to complacency.
I agree that child endangerment laws would cover this and preclude a special law just because the stupidity manifested itself with a firearm.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 12:59:57 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OK, you dumbass clown, what would be the solution? It has to be constitutional, and meet the equal protections clause.

It would seem that to correct this error, to put automatic weapons into the hands of minors as a felony, punishable by lets say, 20 years and $250000 might slow it down a bit.

Or what you got, since you got whining and no solution?

I can tell you that the ATF will have that ranges (and the dead instructors) machine gun and license to own it, one more off the market. But that dont hardly cover it.




No solution needed. How often are kids having accidents with automatic weapons ? I doubt if you could cite another accident as a result of an adult putting a machine gun in a kids hands. I'm not going to suggest that sometimes adults don't let their youngsters fire automatic weapons but most they would be legally registered weapons owned by experienced individuals, the adults supervise closely and they know what their kids can handle. As I'm sure you know there are 8 Y/O's and sometimes younger who handle big bore handguns and 12 gauge shot guns quite well.

FR
The OP should have named this "Another pointless gun thread".
I read the BBC link posted by the OP and some of the claptrap crap on this thread and I have some questions.
Why weren't the parents teaching their own kid ? Did they hire this instructor or was he a family friend ? Did the instructor have any credentials ?




_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Another poitless gun death. - 8/28/2014 1:23:02 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: Gauge


That is the regulation I am talking about, place an age restriction on weapons like an Uzi.


Minus the full auto it is just a 9mm pistol of massive weight compared to say a luger of the same caliber, thus making it more, not less, managable for a diminuitive person.

I also say punish the parents to the full extent of the law.


Why? We do not know why the weapon went to full auto.


Like I said, I am all for responsible gun ownership, and they are the majority, not the minority.

Perhaps if you happened to know anything about firearms that would make sense. You do not so your concept of responsible is skewed to say the least. Why have you not challanged the assertion of the bbc that the uzi is a highpowered weapon. It is not. It fires a pistol cartridge with chamber pressures typically half of that of a high powered weapon.
Thebbc article lables it as an automatic which civilian models are not. How this one went to full auto remains to be discovered. Since the A models (convertable to full auto with the addition of parts only.)became unavailable twenty or more years ago it was a highly modified (parts and machine work) b model or a military unit, in which case what was it doing off the reservation?

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 140
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