RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead

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thompsonx -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 12:42:29 PM)
ORIGINAL: Zonie63 That's pretty much what's being said: If "we" don't face up to and stop this "evil," then nobody else will, it will spread and eventually cover the whole Middle East, and then the entire world...just like The Blob. They used to call that the domino theory. If viet nam fell then one by one like dominos all of south east asia would fall to the evil empire. Well here we are 40 years later and guess what. Nothing fell and we now do a couple of billion dollars a year of trade with commie vietnam. Have you ever noticed it is always some fat fuck who wants someone elses kid to go get killed so he can wave his flag and brag about what a bad ass he is.

PeonForHer -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 1:08:12 PM)
quote: This is because The International Community of the Ever So Caring and Sensitive (ICOTESCAS, Marca Registrada) Cannot admit that Islam - as a complete political, social, and legal system - is different in kind from every other _major_ religion, such that it is questionable - I believe impossible - to be both a devout Muslim and a good citizen. (You can be a fine citizen and a crappy Muslim, however. This just isn't a convincing appraisal, Aylee. If anything, devoutness is a guard against terrorist inclinations and being a 'crappy Muslim' is in fact a characteristic of Jihadi madness and violence, it seems. Hence, "In 2008, a classified briefing note on radicalisation, prepared by MI5's behavioural science unit, was leaked to the Guardian. It revealed that, "far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could . . . be regarded as religious novices." The analysts concluded that "a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation", the newspaper said." http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html And, once again, you are focusing on the periphery and not the core. That is, you're zeroing in on the loud and aggressive extremes and not the millions of Muslims living amongst us and committing no greater crime that wearing kind of bizarre looking clothes. The way you talk, I'd expect to have been killed by now by my local corner shopkeeper. The worst he's ever done, though, is forgotten to say 'Thank you' when I've paid for my groceries.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 1:46:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn If you don't want the violence, then don't commit it in the first place, end of story. Until the WABAC machine is developed (why can't we say we're going to develop one and then be able to use it immediately, like in the movies?), we can't "un-commit" the violence in the first place. It's done. It's over. It's been written about in history books (may have even been taught, but might not have been taught correctly). What do we do, going forward, to help foment peace in the Middle East? I don't have a good idea about what to do 'going forward' after such an extent of going backwards that got us to this point. I'm completely out of my league in the situation we have now, and much smarter people than I said they feel the same way. I understand your point, but at the same time, just as with the financial debacle, the people who kept telling us not to go this route said that if whatever ill-advised venture went forward against their advice, they counseled that neither they nor anyone they knew of would know how to get us out of the near-guaranteed mess resulting. Which is why they (ironically enough) advised against such action. So since they told you beforehand that if you proceeded against their advice and told you very honestly that they wouldn't know what to do about it afterwards if you proceeded anyway .... Why are you asking? For the same reason we still seek to get answers about what we do now from the people who made the mess in the first place. The point is, it's been done. While it would have been much, much better had we stayed out of it decades ago, we can't undo any of that, so saying that we shouldn't have done it isn't getting us any closer to a solution. It's like the adage: "The best time to plant an oak tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is right now." We don't have the luxury of not acting before. Now, we have to decide what to do not.

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 2:05:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR Would one of you brilliant people stop telling me why it is all the fault of the U S, and how taking any military action is so evil and tell me how you are going to establish these schools when going to one or teaching in one is a capital offense. It's not a matter of whose fault it is. Maybe the US does share some portion of fault in all of this, but one of you brilliant people might consider explaining why all of this is the responsibility of the US that we are the only ones who can stop this "evil." That's pretty much what's being said: If "we" don't face up to and stop this "evil," then nobody else will, it will spread and eventually cover the whole Middle East, and then the entire world...just like The Blob. If you weren't being sarcastic I would think you were finally beginning to understand.

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 2:07:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: This is because The International Community of the Ever So Caring and Sensitive (ICOTESCAS, Marca Registrada) Cannot admit that Islam - as a complete political, social, and legal system - is different in kind from every other _major_ religion, such that it is questionable - I believe impossible - to be both a devout Muslim and a good citizen. (You can be a fine citizen and a crappy Muslim, however. This just isn't a convincing appraisal, Aylee. If anything, devoutness is a guard against terrorist inclinations and being a 'crappy Muslim' is in fact a characteristic of Jihadi madness and violence, it seems. Hence, "In 2008, a classified briefing note on radicalisation, prepared by MI5's behavioural science unit, was leaked to the Guardian. It revealed that, "far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could . . . be regarded as religious novices." The analysts concluded that "a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation", the newspaper said." http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html And, once again, you are focusing on the periphery and not the core. That is, you're zeroing in on the loud and aggressive extremes and not the millions of Muslims living amongst us and committing no greater crime that wearing kind of bizarre looking clothes. The way you talk, I'd expect to have been killed by now by my local corner shopkeeper. The worst he's ever done, though, is forgotten to say 'Thank you' when I've paid for my groceries. She is focusing on the problem. You pretend that this is somehow attacking the ones who are not. You must have missed the post where she stated that there is a sect of Islam which is totally different from the problem.

mnottertail -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 2:11:50 PM)
Or the millions of people that don't kill, or the millions of people who dont drive drunk, or the millions of people who don't invade sovereign countries under false pretenses, or the millions of voters who don't commit voter fraud..........oh wait.

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 2:18:44 PM)
FR France has started air strikes in Iraq. But we all know about their Spartanesque attitude toward war.

mnottertail -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 2:24:57 PM)
France has been solidly arming the Kurds, which will be the big payoff.

PeonForHer -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 3:01:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: This is because The International Community of the Ever So Caring and Sensitive (ICOTESCAS, Marca Registrada) Cannot admit that Islam - as a complete political, social, and legal system - is different in kind from every other _major_ religion, such that it is questionable - I believe impossible - to be both a devout Muslim and a good citizen. (You can be a fine citizen and a crappy Muslim, however. This just isn't a convincing appraisal, Aylee. If anything, devoutness is a guard against terrorist inclinations and being a 'crappy Muslim' is in fact a characteristic of Jihadi madness and violence, it seems. Hence, "In 2008, a classified briefing note on radicalisation, prepared by MI5's behavioural science unit, was leaked to the Guardian. It revealed that, "far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could . . . be regarded as religious novices." The analysts concluded that "a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation", the newspaper said." http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html And, once again, you are focusing on the periphery and not the core. That is, you're zeroing in on the loud and aggressive extremes and not the millions of Muslims living amongst us and committing no greater crime that wearing kind of bizarre looking clothes. The way you talk, I'd expect to have been killed by now by my local corner shopkeeper. The worst he's ever done, though, is forgotten to say 'Thank you' when I've paid for my groceries. She is focusing on the problem. You pretend that this is somehow attacking the ones who are not. You must have missed the post where she stated that there is a sect of Islam which is totally different from the problem. Yes, I must have missed that post, Bama. I did not, however, miss where she said: quote: As an exception to the above, there is a strain of Islam that really is capable of both devoutness and citizenship, but it is a small minority strain. (My bolds.)

PeonForHer -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 3:11:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Or the millions of people that don't kill, or the millions of people who dont drive drunk, or the millions of people who don't invade sovereign countries under false pretenses, or the millions of voters who don't commit voter fraud..........oh wait. Oh, forget it, Ron. We know how this works. Those looney extremist Christians - they're the exceptions. We must never, ever judge all Christians that way. Perish the thought. But those looney extremist Muslims - that's all Muslims, that is. Mr Patel who smiles and says 'How are you this morning?' as he sells you your newspaper - just don't inadvertently reveal to him the crucifix around your neck - cos, you know, all his cover will suddenly vanish, out will come his scimitar and you'll find your head rolling on the floor. Happens all the time in drugstores and corner shops in cities all over world. Only people who have been blinded by political correctness have failed to see this on a daily basis as they've popped out in the morning to buy their copy of the Raving Red Commie Anti-Freedom Daily.

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 3:44:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Or the millions of people that don't kill, or the millions of people who dont drive drunk, or the millions of people who don't invade sovereign countries under false pretenses, or the millions of voters who don't commit voter fraud..........oh wait. Oh, forget it, Ron. We know how this works. Those looney extremist Christians - they're the exceptions. We must never, ever judge all Christians that way. Perish the thought. But those looney extremist Muslims - that's all Muslims, that is. Mr Patel who smiles and says 'How are you this morning?' as he sells you your newspaper - just don't inadvertently reveal to him the crucifix around your neck - cos, you know, all his cover will suddenly vanish, out will come his scimitar and you'll find your head rolling on the floor. Happens all the time in drugstores and corner shops in cities all over world. Only people who have been blinded by political correctness have failed to see this on a daily basis as they've popped out in the morning to buy their copy of the Raving Red Commie Anti-Freedom Daily. Other than leftists, being sarcastic, who said anything like that? I know I didn't.

PeonForHer -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 3:54:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Other than leftists, being sarcastic, who said anything like that? I know I didn't. This forum's full of those members of the right wing intelligentsia who have read the Koran and, as a result, feel themselves able to describe the character of every person across the world who calls him or herself a Muslim, Bama. You must have seen such people here. They are well-read, highly-educated, well-spoken - and absolute, unmitigated, bollocks-for-brains.

cloudboy -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 3:56:35 PM)
Good post. I read a memorable quote today about IRAQ from someone living in exile back in 2003. "Topple Saddam, and you'll end up with 1000 little Saddams."

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 4:04:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Other than leftists, being sarcastic, who said anything like that? I know I didn't. This forum's full of those members of the right wing intelligentsia who have read the Koran and, as a result, feel themselves able to describe the character of every person across the world who calls him or herself a Muslim, Bama. You must have seen such people here. They are well-read, highly-educated, well-spoken - and absolute, unmitigated, bollocks-for-brains. Both sides have people who fit that description.

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 4:05:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Good post. I read a memorable quote today about IRAQ from someone living in exile back in 2003. "Topple Saddam, and you'll end up with 1000 little Saddams." Kill Godzilla and you have 1000 Geckos.

Edvynn -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 6:12:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn If you don't want the violence, then don't commit it in the first place, end of story. Until the WABAC machine is developed (why can't we say we're going to develop one and then be able to use it immediately, like in the movies?), we can't "un-commit" the violence in the first place. It's done. It's over. It's been written about in history books (may have even been taught, but might not have been taught correctly). What do we do, going forward, to help foment peace in the Middle East? I don't have a good idea about what to do 'going forward' after such an extent of going backwards that got us to this point. I'm completely out of my league in the situation we have now, and much smarter people than I said they feel the same way. I understand your point, but at the same time, just as with the financial debacle, the people who kept telling us not to go this route said that if whatever ill-advised venture went forward against their advice, they counseled that neither they nor anyone they knew of would know how to get us out of the near-guaranteed mess resulting. Which is why they (ironically enough) advised against such action. So since they told you beforehand that if you proceeded against their advice and told you very honestly that they wouldn't know what to do about it afterwards if you proceeded anyway .... Why are you asking? For the same reason we still seek to get answers about what we do now from the people who made the mess in the first place. The point is, it's been done. While it would have been much, much better had we stayed out of it decades ago, we can't undo any of that, so saying that we shouldn't have done it isn't getting us any closer to a solution. It's like the adage: "The best time to plant an oak tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is right now." We don't have the luxury of not acting before. Now, we have to decide what to do not. Well, the short answer is; "You're on your own." The answer of some others here is; "OK, we bombed the everlovin' fck out of them. I'm not sure, but it looks like that didn't work. What can we do to fix it?" "Yeah, I dunno, this looks complicated, sheesh I didn't know that bombing the fuck out of them would have caused such a mess, whatta we do now?" "Yeah, I dunno, this really looks complicated, all them people we bombed and killed a bunch of their kids, they got all mad about it and everything. We had no idea that would happen. We need to figure out a solution." "Whattaya think?" "Gee I dunno, but usually, you don't have to think too hard, you just know that the only thing you can do to help these people is to show them strength, cause anyways, that's all we know." "When you start to complicate things, like thinking about what you're actually doing and all that crap, that could be taken as a sign of weakness, or even worse, 'abject surrender'". "That would be so bad for these people, wouldn't it? I mean, if we showed weakness by not bombing the fck out of them in the first place, how are they going to have any respect for Western ways?" "Yeah. Or even as fcked up as their religion is, the Western way is lots more flexible because we can ruin their way of life for at least half a century even with out any fcked up religion. We need to to teach them that you can be as fcked in the head as you want, even with out a fcked up religion, if they just follow the Western way, and bomb whoever the fck you want, as long as you don't yell "Allah!" or "Praise Jesus!" before you do it." "Yeah, it takes some longer than others to catch up to the modern world, you know." "Well, I don't know what to do for these people, but since we were trained to just bomb the fck out of everything and not much else, I don't think that's expected of us." "Yeah, I don't know what to do either. Say what, what if we showed some strength by bombing the f*ck out of another country?" "It would make us feel more strongand all that, and it would make us more respectable, and all that." "OK, it wouldn't make us more respectable, and it wouldn't gain anything more than just more whacko terrorists in the process." "But we're trained to solve problems that we create by our own actions, and there's no better job security than splattering a kid's parents all over the living room and then taking him to school the next day." "Yeah, we got that." "No better job satisfaction than taking that kid to school the next day, huh? I mean, if it's still there an' all that." "Alright, so now that we know how to solve the problem, who's next?" There's your answer.

Aylee -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 6:43:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR France has started air strikes in Iraq. But we all know about their Spartanesque attitude toward war. As a student of history, I am quite convinced that being on the same side as France is generally quite unsafe. And isn't the EU buying oil from ISIS? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ccd_1410814052

DaddySatyr -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 6:59:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR France has started air strikes in Iraq. But we all know about their Spartanesque attitude toward war. I'm shocked that French bombs can find their way to the ground. Even if they manage to do that, I wonder if they'll find some other way to malfunction. I just have this picture in my head of a Muslim Imam, selling unexploded French ordinance with a sign that reads: "French paper weights. Never exploded and only dropped once." Screen captures *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

DaddySatyr -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 7:01:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee As a student of history, I am quite convinced that being on the same side as France is generally quite unsafe. There's a quote about France, probably arising from their reputation based upon their late entry into our revolution while promising help for years, all of WWI and most of WWII that goes: "The French. They're there, when they need you." Screen captures *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

Aylee -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/19/2014 7:14:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee As a student of history, I am quite convinced that being on the same side as France is generally quite unsafe. There's a quote about France, probably arising from their reputation based upon their late entry into our revolution while promising help for years, all of WWI and most of WWII that goes: "The French. They're there, when they need you." Screen captures *still* RULE! Ya feel me? There is also the War of 1812. And for all the screeching the leftards do about the VietNam war, you'd think they'd be conversant with the facts . . . we were pulled into that hell by . . . France! Worth noting that the only reason the French helped the rebellion of a British colony was because it was part of the "great game" of that age. I'm happy they wanted to stick a branch through the Brits' spokes, but I don't confuse their motivation for anything beyond that.

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