RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (Full Version)

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LafayetteLady -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 2:10:18 PM)

~Fast Reply~ (because I simply don't have the energy to quote everyone)

This has to be one of only good, interesting posts we have had a in looooong time. Way to go, ET.

My "knee jerk" is keep that shit behind closed doors....but.....Gauge's example does make me give it a lot more thought...but...blondie has an excellent point about where something happens, regardless of the concept that public is public. Because after all, there are different "public" places, and thought should be taken in regard to that as well (and sorry, but that includes breastfeeding).

Some examples: a court room is a public place. Should this leash incident (or the latex outfit for that matter) occur there? No, it is grossly inappropriate. How about PDAs' regardless of the sexual preferences of the people involved? Hand holding, no problem (in a court room setting, I think of that as emotional support) Breastfeeding? Sorry, folks, but you can feed your baby in the waiting area outside the courtroom, not in it. Think of it in terms of no food or drink allowed for anyone.

How about a church? The same thing applies, as well as not walking in there looking like a slut. Still, it is a public place.

There is a huge difference between what happens on the streets of Manhattan, San Francisco, LA, or any major cities compared to a small Midwestern town, somewhere in the bible belt, or even in the town that I live.

I don't go into the NYC hardly ever, but I've been enough times to know I will see things there that I don't see at home. Shit, one of the reasons I don't go is because I can't seem to not stare or comment on things (yes, I drunkenly and loudly kept pointing out a drug to friends one night outside CBGBs. And yes, I'm old enough to have gone there, lol). San Francisco is well known for being somewhat "free" (isn't there a place there where it is legal to walk around naked?)

I don't live in a backwater town, but it is a small town. The leash incident? Most people here would give funny looks. But we also have at least one (or did) very open transsexual who was pretty much accepted as part of the community. Really nice person who worked in the local supermarket and always gave my son cookies and a smile. No one thought she was trying to hit on their kids.

As for insecurity, I'm totally with Gauge on this one. Some people are just exhibitionists. If the idea of doing something publicly is a sign of insecurity, then I guess everyone who goes to BDSM clubs or play parties is mighty insecure. Especially if one is going to play the "public is public" card. After all, no matter how you look at it, whether in the street or in a kink club, that need to "show" everyone who you are still exists.

Personally, I think most public displays of affection beyond hand holding, and a quick peck, or putting your arms around your partner all belong behind closed doors. I don't want to see a teenage couple, a geriatric couple, newlyweds, heterosexual or homosexual making out in public. Of course, I also think that hickies are a sign of someone being insecure in a relationship and needing to "mark" their territory.



ExiledTyrant -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 2:23:36 PM)

LL, I'd reply to each of your points, but I must strangle you with a wonder bra, so there is no point. Rules are rules.

Jus sayin



Gauge -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 3:47:25 PM)

I am dropping out of the conversation for the time being. I will reply to people possibly tomorrow on this subject, my brain is just not functioning the way it needs to due to my sleep deprivation.

In the interim I will ask a question because I am interested to know. Are our attitudes toward this sort of thing more of a cultural thing here in America because sex is vilified and often suppressed to the point of stupidity? Is this sort of thing handled differently in other countries, particularly Europe and the oft wacky UK?



Kaliko -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 4:11:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As for insecurity, I'm totally with Gauge on this one. Some people are just exhibitionists. If the idea of doing something publicly is a sign of insecurity, then I guess everyone who goes to BDSM clubs or play parties is mighty insecure. Especially if one is going to play the "public is public" card. After all, no matter how you look at it, whether in the street or in a kink club, that need to "show" everyone who you are still exists.



I think there is a difference between going to a play party and doing something publicly at a setting in which people aren't expecting it: shock value. If I'm at a play party (never once, but let's just go with it) I'm not going to really stand out much. But if I'm in a public park being led by a leash, people will turn and stare. I will have grabbed their attention. I will have proven myself more forward-thinking than they are, or whatever it is that will make me feel good about myself.

I feel the same way about public displays of kink as I do about people with blue hair or people who wear offensive t-shirts. They're doing it because they want to be noticed. Yes, I do believe that there are people who genuinely think their hair looks better blue, or who genuinely enjoy wearing clothing with curse words all over it (maybe like some people like polka dots - for whatever reason, maybe they really do find it visually appealing). But my gut tells me that most people are masking their desire for attention, their desire to feel special, with something that will get them that attention and then call it a kink, or a fashion preference, or whatever so that they have something to point to and say "See? I'm special because I am this thing."*

I have a slightly different take on it if the person in question is in a downtrodden group or discriminated against. In that case, I think calling attention to oneself eventually reduces ignorance and breeds familiarity.

*And this bit of speculation has been applied inwardly, as well. Must I actually identify as "submissive?" Can't I just be? Eh. Another thread.



DesFIP -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 4:15:09 PM)

So because it's NYC there are automatically no small children about? Sorry folks, I still think it's wrong simply because there are kids all over the place. We lived there when my daughter was young and I wouldn't have wanted to explain this to her.

Now, if it's 11 PM, no problem, kids should be home and asleep at that hour. But midday when mother and child are heading to the grocery store? Not cool at all.

There are a couple of islands where gays do congregate, Fire Island and Key West come to mind. I expect to see the Miss Fire Island contest there in late July and all the guys dressed in drag with mustaches yet. I don't expect to see that normally on a city street.



ExiledTyrant -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 4:20:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

I am dropping out of the conversation for the time being. I will reply to people possibly tomorrow on this subject, my brain is just not functioning the way it needs to due to my sleep deprivation.


I can absolutely respect that.

quote:



In the interim I will ask a question because I am interested to know. Are our attitudes toward this sort of thing more of a cultural thing here in America because sex is vilified and often suppressed to the point of stupidity?


I cannot speak for the masses, though I do have a great deal and disdain for the "sex is dirty" doctrine, I'd prefer younger generations to explore natural curiosity, inclinations, and proclivities rather than have a road map strait into something that looks cool, but did not evolve from an innate drive, desire, or compulsion.

I personally wasn't exposed to kink, I've always been a freak. Finding resource only gave me the nomenclatures of what I was already doing, my natural proclivities. How often do we see "I saw some shit online and want to learn more" with a profile that says "I don't know wtf I'm doing, but I want to get laid".

I don't see WITTWD as a club, it's more of an institution to me. I count my blessings that we have places like this to forge connections with people that understand me, without painful explanation, and that a potential /s doesn't have to be groomed to cope with me, she only need to read my profile. At some point, anyone with a kink will google it to understand it better. I prefer the kink be within them, rather than them be exposed to shit that they saw.

quote:


Is this sort of thing handled differently in other countries, particularly Europe and the oft wacky UK?


I'll pass the buck here.



GotSteel -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 5:18:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Your example is a toughie. .. given my general point of view that involving non consenting others in your kink is not cool, I'm now having to mull over the fact that my reaction to the example you gave was actually "cool!"


They're not actually being involved in it though. It's not like anybody's being forced to take the leash or spank her ass. They're being forced to tolerate the existence of a lifestyle that's different from theirs. Further I think Gauge has brought up a good point, what standard does one use to justify forcing tolerance of trans and gay lifestyles on a non consenting public and then turn around and discriminate against me for wanting the exact same right.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 5:38:00 PM)

That's my point as well.  Within reason, of course.

Kaliko,

I do understand what you are saying, but realistically, in both places (walking down the street, or in a kink club) the person is saying, "look at me, look at me."  I specifically don't go to play parties and such, because for me, this aspect of my life is private, just between me and my partner.  I don't need to announce it to the world, or do a scene in a club so everyone can see how dommely I am or how submissive my partner is.  However, we are talking about insecurity as opposed to "shock value."  Plenty of people do things to scream, "look at me, I'm different."  The problem is that usually, those people tend to be doing what all their friends are doing, lol.

ET,

Attempt to strangle all you want, the point is that just because one has a baby doesn't mean that baby should be fed (or changed) anywhere.  Likewise if that child is screaming and disrupting the peaceful enjoyment of others.  If your child is crying it's head off in church, you take the baby out of the sanctuary.  If the baby needs to be changed, you don't do it on the bench during the sermon.  If you aren't going to be snacking during church service, then don't feed your child there.  I never said go hide in the bathroom.  I said, somewhere like a courthouse, go into the waiting area in the hall.  In the church,  step outside into the alcove.  There is a HUGE difference between insisting someone hide something, and wanting someone to not do something somewhere inappropriate.

DesFIP,

So then the prostitutes shouldn't be on the street in the middle of the day or the homosexual who is very flamboyant?  To a young child, questions could be raised about both.  For that matter, how many young children will ask inappropriate questions about someone disfigured or disable?  Should they stay home to because you don't want to explain to your child about it just yet?

I totally get your point, but yes in big cities such as NYC, we will see different things than in small town America and so yes, it is more expected.



TheCabal -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 5:46:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I think there is a difference between going to a play party and doing something publicly at a setting in which people aren't expecting it: shock value. If I'm at a play party (never once, but let's just go with it) I'm not going to really stand out much. But if I'm in a public park being led by a leash, people will turn and stare. I will have grabbed their attention. I will have proven myself more forward-thinking than they are, or whatever it is that will make me feel good about myself.

I feel the same way about public displays of kink as I do about people with blue hair or people who wear offensive t-shirts. They're doing it because they want to be noticed. Yes, I do believe that there are people who genuinely think their hair looks better blue, or who genuinely enjoy wearing clothing with curse words all over it (maybe like some people like polka dots - for whatever reason, maybe they really do find it visually appealing). But my gut tells me that most people are masking their desire for attention, their desire to feel special, with something that will get them that attention and then call it a kink, or a fashion preference, or whatever so that they have something to point to and say "See? I'm special because I am this thing."*

I have a slightly different take on it if the person in question is in a downtrodden group or discriminated against. In that case, I think calling attention to oneself eventually reduces ignorance and breeds familiarity.

*And this bit of speculation has been applied inwardly, as well. Must I actually identify as "submissive?" Can't I just be? Eh. Another thread.




I'm curious... what makes one a member of a downtrodden or discriminated against group? Honestly, I think everyone here fits into the generally accepted notions of that concept. We live 'in the closet' so to speak because running someone around on a leash isn't generally accepted.

But then you go make the other point... that maybe we're just all looking for attention.

I think, too often, we demand tolerance that we don't show others. I don't expect society to accept my kinks.... in fact, I sort of don't want it to. It's not because I'm ashamed of who I am... it's because I don't want to be thought of as mundane. As you noted - there's a time and place for leading a slave around on a leash. And the curious can find those places easily enough that I don't need to do it in a public park on Labor Day Weekend.

I don't want to rub my kinks in the face of poor, inexperienced vanillas. The thing of it is, it's actually intolerant of me to do that. It shows that I lack an understanding of them, and what makes them uncomfortable.



Marlenalove -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 6:03:37 PM)

I'm popping back in, and don't want to be an uber quoter, so I'll just add the thoughts that came to me as I read up on the thread.

When I see anyone that is in public, acting or dressing in a way that is extremely out of the social norm, my gut reaction is that they are insecure, and in need of external attention to justify how "different" they are. That is my gut reaction. It may not be true. They may just get OFF on being a public attraction. But the element of "Fuck you all, I'm doing it my way", is there. If people feel the need to garner that type of attention, then that also says to me that they aren't comfortable enough, secure enough, in WHO they are, to just rest in it. Internal validation needs no external attention. Keep in mind, this is my interpretation, and it comes with all my experience in knowing some people who do this.

And yes, legally, a public place is a public place. However, I am sticking to my original statement that they are not all equal. It. Ay not be fair. It may not be right. It's just a fact.

I wouldn't care if I saw it. I wouldn't care if my kids saw it. My kids got their initial values and views of the world from me. It matters WAY more to a child what their parents do and say, in comparison to what they see strangers do. They looked to me to help them interpret the way the world works. This would have been just another one of those times, no more, or less important than anything else they had seen, that they didn't understand.



InHisHeart -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 6:05:33 PM)

I don't have a problem with seeing some kink in public as long as what they're doing is legal and it's not hurting anyone. I've seen things in public that I didn't approve of but that's on me, I own my feelings. Others might approve of something I don't approve of. When I see something I don't like, I stop looking, it only takes a second to turn my head. No one owes it to me to act in a way that I approve of.

As for kids seeing it, I've had to explain much more disturbing things to my kids than a man walking a woman on a leash or men making out in the park.



Blonderfluff -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 6:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marlenalove

I'm popping back in, and don't want to be an uber quoter, so I'll just add the thoughts that came to me as I read up on the thread.

When I see anyone that is in public, acting or dressing in a way that is extremely out of the social norm, my gut reaction is that they are insecure, and in need of external attention to justify how "different" they are. That is my gut reaction. It may not be true. They may just get OFF on being a public attraction. But the element of "Fuck you all, I'm doing it my way", is there. If people feel the need to garner that type of attention, then that also says to me that they aren't comfortable enough, secure enough, in WHO they are, to just rest in it. Internal validation needs no external attention. Keep in mind, this is my interpretation, and it comes with all my experience in knowing some people who do this.

And yes, legally, a public place is a public place. However, I am sticking to my original statement that they are not all equal. It. Ay not be fair. It may not be right. It's just a fact.

I wouldn't care if I saw it. I wouldn't care if my kids saw it. My kids got their initial values and views of the world from me. It matters WAY more to a child what their parents do and say, in comparison to what they see strangers do. They looked to me to help them interpret the way the world works. This would have been just another one of those times, no more, or less important than anything else they had seen, that they didn't understand.


Aaand I just posted from my other account. Blonde moment. Just adding this for full disclosure. [sm=Groaner.gif]



shiftyw -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 6:16:08 PM)

I don't see it as a big deal unless its like...you're fucking in the middle of a busy street and could get arrested.

I actually noticed the other night that whenever I see one of my friend's gf's she's wearing a collar- and she tends to defer to him (he orders her drinks and food)- I have hung out with them easily a dozen times this year and didn't even notice this stuff until a week ago. I don't see it as "forcing their kink" on anyone.



Kaliko -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 6:18:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCabal

I'm curious... what makes one a member of a downtrodden or discriminated against group? Honestly, I think everyone here fits into the generally accepted notions of that concept. We live 'in the closet' so to speak because running someone around on a leash isn't generally accepted.



When I wrote that, I was thinking of the flamboyantly gay example used earlier in the thread. Gay people don't have all the rights that others do, so there may be more reason to having a voice about the fact that they're gay - in my mind anyway . I was also thinking outside of kink. Drawing attention to yourself to further a cause is not quite the same thing as drawing attention because it gives your ego a boost.

ETA. I reread what you said. To clarify - I don't think it's necessary for the world to know that I like to be yanked around on a leash now and then because I'm not denied any basic rights because of it. So no, I don't believe everyone here fits into the downtrodden or discriminated against group.



GoddessManko -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 8:25:50 PM)

FR; Are we very seriously on a kink site criticizing voyeurism? That's...OK, taking this topic seriously for a moment.
1; If you ever, EVER see something you don't like, do yourself a favor and look away. It's not hard, I promise.
2; I personally LOVE little things like displaying my body for example, because it pisses certain entities off. It's a bit of sadism.
3;If I wasn't such an introvert and known to be just oh so sweet to my friends, I would probably indulge publicly but this lifestyle is quite intimate for me, so for me to be placed in such a position, when I'm "exposed", would be OBSCENE.



ExiledTyrant -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 8:33:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

FR; Are we very seriously on a kink site criticizing voyeurism?


Well shit. I guess I should've checked the statistics. Who knew that 100% of the worlds population are consensual voyeurs.

Kindly disregard this thread as the tripe it is.



GoddessManko -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 9:34:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant


Well shit. I guess I should've checked the statistics. Who knew that 100% of the worlds population are consensual voyeurs.

Kindly disregard this thread as the tripe it is.



Ha, no, it has substance. But I feel like there is a bit of sadism in the ability to get other people involved in the scene, as a backdrop with or without said consent. In fact, I think the fact it unsettles the unwilling voyeurs might thrill the Dom further. Well, it makes sense in my mind in any case.



smileforme50 -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/12/2014 9:39:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blonderfluff

My take on Gauges scenario would have been "what an insecure Master". But that's just me. From a kink standpoint, I think it's perfectly acceptable.


Why must it be insecurity? I don't think that is a fair assessment of a person without knowing them. Maybe their kink is public humiliation and she gets screaming wet from being displayed like a domestic animal. I am not insecure and I have thought about walking my slut, and she kind of digs the idea too. I have zero to prove to anyone, nor do I need their approval. Not sure I would ever do it, but I have thought about it.

quote:

They didn't parade down Main Street, Iowa. It was Manhattan. Not all public settings are created equal, IMO .


Oh come now, public is the public no matter what the setting. A higher concentration of conservative or liberal twats should not make it a less or more appropriate setting. I respect your point however and to a degree, I agree.




(Damn...I never catch the cool topics when they first start.... [sm=banghead.gif] )

I think there IS a difference between doing something public in a place like NYC or better yet, San Francisco, and small town Kansas. I think part of being able to show any display of these lifestyles is not "shocking" people TOO much. There are just some places where seeing these kinds of things wouldn't be too shocking and some places where they would, and we need to know the potential "audience". As someone else mentoined....there is that risk of being arrested and labeled as a sex offender.

Personally, I wouldn't have an objection to small, subtle displays of submission to my Master out in public. Such as....walking to his right and behind him and keeping my eyes lowered so as to not look at anyone else we pass by. That is something that is not blatantly sexual so as to not be highly offensive, plus most people may or may not even notice or realize what is going on. I think that would actually be a little exciting to have some people take a second look and wonder if they are really seeing what they think they are seeing. Am I really being submissive to this man next to me....or am I just walking a little slower than him and looking down at the ground because I am in deep thought about something?

I have to admit that a little part of me also likes the idea of "sizing"....maybe not necessarily trying on and modeling....collars in a pet store. Provided there aren't a lot of people around watching us.

I got into a discussion about this with a long time Dom friend. He asked me how I would feel if I was in a hotel lobby with my Master and he told me to sit on the floor at his feet. I told him that this is another example (like walking behind and keeping eyes lowered) of "keep 'em guessing". Some people wouldn't give it a second glance or thought, some people might look at us a bit sideways and "wonder" and others would assume that it was a blatant display. I told him that I think that would determine how out of place we looked would be how we were dressed. If we were in town for a wedding and I was in a very nice dress and heels....and sitting on the floor....people would REALLY look at us weird. If I was dressed very casually in jeans, shorts or sweats, they may just think that I like to sit on the floor so my "man" can run his hand through my hair.

I think another factor that would affect my desire to do these things would be ....what are that chances of someone we KNOW seeing us out in public like this? I certainly wouldn't want to risk anybody I work with seeing me putting dog collars on in PetSmart.

Although another thought just occurred to me. I find it somewhat offensive that some guys walk down the street in public with their pants hanging halfway down their ass with their underwear sticking out all over....or 300 pound women wear fluorescent pink (or animal print) spandex. Makes me wonder why I'm worried about offending someone if they see me wearing a collar in public. I may have to rethink some of this.

Although the same issue still applies concerning the risk of a co-worker seeing me doing anything overtly kinky......



GotSteel -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/13/2014 9:02:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I do understand what you are saying, but realistically, in both places (walking down the street, or in a kink club) the person is saying, "look at me, look at me." 


That's not necessarily true. Yes, some people are exhibitionists and desire to behave in a way that's "vulgar" in order to get off on the stares. But for others, high protocol, pets, etc, it's just their normal lifestyle. It's not about getting stares but about not having to constantly hide who they are.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Hey, it's okay, we're consenting adults (9/13/2014 12:59:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I do understand what you are saying, but realistically, in both places (walking down the street, or in a kink club) the person is saying, "look at me, look at me." 


That's not necessarily true. Yes, some people are exhibitionists and desire to behave in a way that's "vulgar" in order to get off on the stares. But for others, high protocol, pets, etc, it's just their normal lifestyle. It's not about getting stares but about not having to constantly hide who they are.


Actually, if you look at the rest of that post, you would see that I totally agree with you, but was using that example to make a point that if someone is going to claim it is a sign of insecurity to do it in public, it is a sign of insecurity to openly play in a club designed for those activities.

I think the real question is, where do we draw the line? As you say, for some this is simply who they are, and they are going to do their thing (within legal parameters) not thinking of what others are thinking.

Leave out the kink for a moment. What about the transsexual who has facial hair (MtF)? If she's comfortable wearing a skirt and heels, but keeps the facial hair, do we have a right to tell her to shave? That would come down to discrimination, wouldn't it? After all, she isn't breaking any laws, she is simply being herself. Yet, someone walking past her on the street with their kids might have to answer some questions. Walking your partner on a leash isn't that much different.

I'm quite comfortable in my own skin, and with who I am. I dress for myself, no one else, and I don't consider what the public might think of what I may be wearing. For example, due to my back issues, I don't always have nice, clean shaven legs. But if it is 90 degrees outside, I'm wearing shorts, hairy legs and all. Do I care if someone doesn't want to see that? Nope. Look the other way.

As someone else mentioned, in a sense, we are being just as intolerant by trying to determine what people should and shouldn't do that doesn't violate the law but is maybe something we don't care to see.



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