Zonie63
Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You seem determined to stick with the simplistic explanation that 9/11 was solely motivated by the hatred of "religious nuts". I am reminded of Bush the Dumber's absurd claim that AQ carried out 9/11 because they hated America's freedoms ..... so ridiculously self serving that it's almost an insult to one's intelligence to advance it. I am suggesting that this explanation is inadequate, that 'hatred' only explains part of the picture, not the whole. That is not too difficult for you to grasp is it?
Yeah I remember Bush saying that they hated us for our freedom. The reason why he was able to get away with that was because a lot of people at the time didn't even care about the reasons. From the point of view of the average American who doesn't really know or understand the outside world - and who remains willfully ignorant of our history and foreign policy - they think that America is full of nice innocent people and can't understand why anyone would want to attack us.
Another thing to keep in mind is that many Americans get their information about the outside world from their friends and family members who serve in the military, since they may not know anyone else who has any extensive experience outside the country. So, in a typical group discussion of an issue like this, someone who merely reads books is going to be at a disadvantage and given less credibility than someone who can say "I was there; I understand these people better than you do."
You may have already noticed that that's a common thread in these discussions here, as the hawks invariably claim some level of "higher understanding" that gives them some kind of moral imperative that spoiled, sheltered, insular civilians (whom they see as nothing more than naive children) couldn't possibly understand. But if asked to elaborate, they invariably go silent or try to change the subject, which is very telling, in my opinion. The most you might get is something similar to Col. Jessep's speech in A Few Good Men.
quote:
I am interested in why you refuse to look beyond this simplistic explanation. Why is the possibility that there might be some political factors involved so threatening for you that you refuse to countenance it? Is it because you fear what you might find if you dig too deeply? If something like 9/11 happened here, I would be determined to get to the bottom of it and understand it fully. Unless these steps are taken, the possibility that something along the lines of 9/11 will occur in the future cannot be eliminated.
There are a number of ways one could look at this. Assuming that the hawks are correct and that Muslims hate America "just because," then one might well ask why we weren't targeted 25 or 50 years earlier? Either they didn't hate us back then, or they did hate us but didn't have the wherewithal to carry out any significant attacks against us. Or, it could also be that America itself has declined and weakened during this time, and those who hate us already might see an opening and strike out against us.
In that sense, the problem may not have anything to do with "them," but rather, the problem is in us. Instead of shoring up our own internal weaknesses and making America into a better nation, the hawks don't really want to face up to that. They see America as the greatest, most enlightened, most benevolent nation on Earth, and that everything in this world would be almost perfect if not for "them," whatever "enemy" there happens to be out there in the outside world. To explain it all away by saying they're "religious nuts" full of hatred for America avoids any examination of America itself and puts all attention and focus on "the other."
The thing is, there will always be a "them" out there to deal with. There will always be some group, nation, or group of nations which may hate us and might very well be "evil," however one understands the concept. Even if we were to view them as one-dimensional "religious nuts," then what does that make us, if we've allowed them to get to us like this?
Expanding a bit further on this point, let's assume that these are "religious nuts," totally full of zeal and unmitigated hatred for America from top to bottom, just because of our freedom. They see us as "weak" on multiple levels. Our materialism and insatiable love of money is our major weakness. They may see us as "soft," too wrapped up in complacent luxury and comfort. From the point of view of a "religious nut," they would see a great deal of spiritual and moral weakness which they can use as a point of attack. They can also see that there are political and other internal divisions within the country and view that as a weakness that they can exploit. We exposed ourselves as a paper tiger decades ago.
So, even assuming that the view that these are "religious nuts who hate us for our freedom" is correct, we also have to examine our own position and how we became so entangled in such a complicated mess. How did they get to us? How did they manage to pull this and other attacks off? Are we slipping? Are we just not able to cut the mustard anymore? Are we just getting too slow, too old, and too dull, as a nation? If we are an empire in decline and increasing weakness, then that's due to our own devices, not because of the "religious nuts" themselves.
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RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 
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