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RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 8:18:43 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		There is no demolition evidence in any of those pictures.

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(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 9:30:52 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

A few thoughts:

-- "Hilarious!" was a jarring adjective to encounter in a 9/11 context.

-- With OBL and all the hijackers dead, discerning their motives will likely involve guesswork, which may be one reason folks haven't rushed to do so. Given that the folks who perished on 9/11 included people from my own life, I'm particularly wary of anyone's effort to use their deaths to make political points.

-- Is there really that much new to learn from the 9/11 attackers' motives? We already know that OBL resented the "defiling" of his homeland, that many Muslims detest our support of Israel, and the U.S. is far from perfect.

-- There's a fine line between offering an explanation of why something happened and excusing it. That's a line I'd prefer not to see crossed in this instance. I must confess I've sometimes wondered if the zeal to "understand" 9/11 springs, perhaps unconsciously, from a hunger to say, "You see: It really was the United States' fault."


I don't think anyone is actually excusing 9/11, but by the same token, any kind of fair and objective analysis of the events in question should not excuse or overlook anything - even if it might paint an unflattering picture of our own government and its policies. It may not necessarily address any specific motives OBL or AQ might have had; if they're already against the US anyway for whatever reason, it may just be a matter of looking for an opening and opportunity to strike. But it might also be necessary to look at what led up to it and the overall situation which was created in the first place, in regards to various US policies in the Middle East.

I don't think it was the United States' "fault," either. Or at least, I don't think "fault" is the right word to use here. In terms of geopolitics, there are always many countries involved, not just one. Everyone is dirty to some extent. One thing that seems clear is that there is a tendency to reduce the "enemy" to one-dimensional raving lunatics. For some reason, a lot of people don't even want to "understand" beyond that level. I see the same tendency across the board on multiple issues, not just in regards to terrorism. But if they really were such crazed, violent maniacs, then their acts of terrorism would have no more significance than that of an earthquake.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 9:58:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm all for criticizing the Bush Administration. They were a never ending source for my column back then.

And Sept. 11 is a day of infamy. But it doesn't need to be a day of idiocy, as the various kooky theorists want it to be.

Science/logic flunk-outs, the lot of them. I think it's fair for an objective analysis to not waste effort on flimsy conjuncture.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 1:42:08 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I don't think anyone is trying to to claim that the US is a completely innocent bystander in what led to 9/11. I doubt there's an American alive who watched the towers fall that didn't ask themselves what America's role might have to been to cause that level of hatred. I also remember the Ollie North comments regarding his fear of OBL years before 9/11.

So now we begin traveling down the historic road of who did what to whom first. How far back would you like to go to start the blame? Do we start with Saddam? The Shah? What about our help in kicking the Russians out of Afghanistan? Why didn't that count in our favor with OBL? After all, wasn't it his allies we supported during that period? Or just the fact that the US had been fighting the Cold War in general. Something that was a global conflict that involved nearly every nation on the planet in one form or another. Did the terrorists take that "bigger picture" into consideration when they decided who deserved to be attacked? What about all the religious schools in the ME who've been teaching for decades that Western culture is evil? Doesn't that matter too? What about the British or French? They've been meddling in the affairs of the ME longer than we have. Why haven't the attacks the British suffered been accompanied by the same scrutiny some people are putting on the US?

And this doesn't even include the countless hijackings that have ocurred over the years. Some of which included the murder of Americans who otherwise had nothing to do with the reasoning behind the hijacking. They just happened to be on the wrong airplane...and American.

Layer, upon layer, upon layer, upon layer. Blame us, blame them. Back and forth. At some point, you have to draw a line and let history be history and hope people make better decisions from then on. That doesn't mean I excuse the inappropriate things our government has done. There are countless avenues the US could have taken to be a better friend to the ME. But in the interest of simply trying to serve honest justice you eventually have to cut loose the superfluous and look at the specific people who committed the crime. When I do that, what I see is a religious leader (OBL) using his belief system to convince a bunch of people that attacking the US was not just politically acceptable but something "holy".

My head isn't in the sand regarding any of this. But for those who would try to paint the US as the only criminal in the causes of 9/11, maybe they're the ones that need to be more objective in paying attention to history.


_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 1:53:41 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		An excellent review of the complicated current situation. It does ignore OBL's main complaint. That the materialistic/capitalistic culture of the West is the mortal enemy of Islam and any other spiritual culture. Which people in the US have been saying for generations.
It's Hollywood, Silicon Valley and Madison Avenue as much as the government that are changing their traditional societies in profound and fundamental ways. So they attack the US instead of the harder job of enforcing their particular orthodoxy locally. The same failed strategy as the US trying to control drug trafficking outside and across the US borders instead of working on our national passion and self-destructive (Individually and socially) hunger for solving problems with pills.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 9/24/2014 1:55:33 PM >

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 2:15:57 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Yeah I remember Bush saying that they hated us for our freedom.



I think 'they' see consumers, machines buying and selling things, and in their world that isn't freedom.



_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 2:17:03 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


Do you really expect to decipher the motivations of a bunch of religious nuts?

Since by your own definition you are too lazy to try you seem willing to just make shit up?


(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 2:29:11 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 2:34:48 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I read that part and you misread me. Bldg. 7 is the tip of the iceburg in unanswered questions is my point.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 2:46:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I read that part and you misread me. Bldg. 7 is the tip of the iceburg in unanswered questions is my point.

There are no unanswered questions of the sort you seem to be asking. There is no evidence of intentional demolition. The fire chief did not order any such thing. You are displaying classic signs of not dealing with shock. You are seeking to assign motivation and blame to people you were already suspicious of rather than adapting to a changing world. That's why you denied the existence of OBL and AQ for so long. I strongly suggest you seek counseling.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 4:20:09 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Do you really expect to decipher the motivations of a bunch of religious nuts?

Since by your own definition you are too lazy to try you seem willing to just make shit up?

Since you seem to be having some problems here, t-wrecked, let me give you some advice about trolling...

1) Never drink and troll.
2) Try to keep up with the conversation instead of trolling 30 posts behind.
3) Make sure your troll actually makes sense.

Hope that helps.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/24/2014 10:46:56 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I read that part and you misread me. Bldg. 7 is the tip of the iceburg in unanswered questions is my point.

There are no unanswered questions of the sort you seem to be asking. There is no evidence of intentional demolition. The fire chief did not order any such thing. You are displaying classic signs of not dealing with shock. You are seeking to assign motivation and blame to people you were already suspicious of rather than adapting to a changing world. That's why you denied the existence of OBL and AQ for so long. I strongly suggest you seek counseling.

You reading my posts ? First of all I've never said what 'sort' of unanswered questions I have and there is plenty of visual and engineering (scientific evidence) for the demolition of 7.

Even Silverstein (the new leaseholder of WTC as of 2001, said in an interview that he was asked and agreed "it (7) should be pulled." 'Pulled is a regular demolition term and no lay person like himself...would ever use that term unless of course.....

As I've said and will continue to say...let's not rehash this whole thing since we will not change anything.

Furthermore, I have never denied the existence of OBL, don't know where you got that but he was never charged with complicity in 9/11 and as I've said Al Quada translates into 'data base' which the CIA used for a record of the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets in Afghan.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/24/2014 11:19:53 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/25/2014 3:25:53 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Furthermore, I have never denied the existence of OBL, don't know where you got that but he was never charged with complicity in 9/11 and as I've said Al Quada translates into 'data base' which the CIA used for a record of the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets in Afghan.


And here, I heard OBL got the name from the translation of Isaac Asimov's "The Foundation Trilogy," since Al = The and Qaida = Foundation.




Edit for a missing "i".

< Message edited by Aylee -- 9/25/2014 3:27:15 PM >

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/25/2014 4:10:05 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, that Osama was a big American Science Fiction buff.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/25/2014 6:47:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I read that part and you misread me. Bldg. 7 is the tip of the iceburg in unanswered questions is my point.

There are no unanswered questions of the sort you seem to be asking. There is no evidence of intentional demolition. The fire chief did not order any such thing. You are displaying classic signs of not dealing with shock. You are seeking to assign motivation and blame to people you were already suspicious of rather than adapting to a changing world. That's why you denied the existence of OBL and AQ for so long. I strongly suggest you seek counseling.

You reading my posts ? First of all I've never said what 'sort' of unanswered questions I have and there is plenty of visual and engineering (scientific evidence) for the demolition of 7.

Even Silverstein (the new leaseholder of WTC as of 2001, said in an interview that he was asked and agreed "it (7) should be pulled." 'Pulled is a regular demolition term and no lay person like himself...would ever use that term unless of course.....

As I've said and will continue to say...let's not rehash this whole thing since we will not change anything.

Furthermore, I have never denied the existence of OBL, don't know where you got that but he was never charged with complicity in 9/11 and as I've said Al Quada translates into 'data base' which the CIA used for a record of the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets in Afghan.

pulled as in the firefighters inside the building should be pulled out of it. Please don't be stupid. It was said by the fire chief saying the phrase during the event.

And yes you did deny the existence of OBL  and AQ. AQ does not mean database. The literal translation is "the base" database is a different word.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/25/2014 9:25:50 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There are no unanswered questions of the sort you seem to be asking. There is no evidence of intentional demolition. The fire chief did not order any such thing. You are displaying classic signs of not dealing with shock.


Ken, generally I avoid like the plague posting 'authoritative' sources but in this case since I know you wont take my word for it, here is a 30 year demolition veteran in his own demolition business for over 30 years, wasnt told what building he was looking at, just shown the video clips, (so we got the truth) and he says its obviously a demolition, no doubt about it.

So why should anyone take you seriously and believe you and not him?



He even explains how easy it is to knock it down and other concerns, like less than 30 seconds to place the charges.

Especially when we can all see those funny little 'sequenced' flashes of light lighting up like it is:





then NIST spent 7 years proving that the building could not collapse naturally without explosives as we can see here.



and they even admitted that it freefell! Do you know what the definition of freefall is when applied to a building......as in demolition?



Do you know what is significant about freefall Ken? Especially after NIST changed their final report that now shows (admits) freefall?


Seems to me there is overwhemling evidence of criminal negligence.


Jowenko died immediately (coincidentally of course) after his interview on one of the large television syndicate programs, just like Jennings. Dead men cant talk.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/25/2014 9:42:57 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/25/2014 10:31:45 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I read that part and you misread me. Bldg. 7 is the tip of the iceburg in unanswered questions is my point.

There are no unanswered questions of the sort you seem to be asking. There is no evidence of intentional demolition. The fire chief did not order any such thing. You are displaying classic signs of not dealing with shock. You are seeking to assign motivation and blame to people you were already suspicious of rather than adapting to a changing world. That's why you denied the existence of OBL and AQ for so long. I strongly suggest you seek counseling.

You reading my posts ? First of all I've never said what 'sort' of unanswered questions I have and there is plenty of visual and engineering (scientific evidence) for the demolition of 7.

Even Silverstein (the new leaseholder of WTC as of 2001, said in an interview that he was asked and agreed "it (7) should be pulled." 'Pulled is a regular demolition term and no lay person like himself...would ever use that term unless of course.....

As I've said and will continue to say...let's not rehash this whole thing since we will not change anything.

Furthermore, I have never denied the existence of OBL, don't know where you got that but he was never charged with complicity in 9/11 and as I've said Al Quada translates into 'data base' which the CIA used for a record of the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets in Afghan.

pulled as in the firefighters inside the building should be pulled out of it. Please don't be stupid. It was said by the fire chief saying the phrase during the event.

And yes you did deny the existence of OBL  and AQ. AQ does not mean database. The literal translation is "the base" database is a different word.

'Pulled' is a demolition term regardless of what else anyone wants it to mean and Silversrtein was clearly referring to the bldg. not any people inside.

As for fire fighters, there is audio from a radio fire alert to bldg. 7 with the responsible fire fighters clearly saying that the fires could be handled by a couple of trucks they being of simple office materials etc. Suffice it to say there is no scientific proof whatsoever that a 47 story steel bldg. goes into free fall from such fires.

You will have to show me where I said that OBL didn't exist and in fact I have written here that he was on CIA payroll during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Al Quada was a term created by the CIA to describe the 'data base' for as I said...the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets. (it actually means the toilet 'base')

Al-Quada is a name never adopted by the 'group' of only two recruits obtained by OBL from the Taliban when they told him they didn't want to hit America but allowed the recruits because they needed his money.

Stupid is simply denying that there is any problem with the outlandishly preposterous conspiracy theory we got from our govt.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/26/2014 12:31:21 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Since you seem to be having some problems here, t-wrecked, let me give you some advice about trolling...

Are you the expert now on trolling?



(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/26/2014 1:21:29 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Since you seem to be having some problems here, t-wrecked, let me give you some advice about trolling...

Are you the expert now on trolling?


I expect most people here have seen enough of your posts to be experts.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy - 9/26/2014 5:13:47 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
.....and what's really surprising is that Bldg. 7 is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.


What's really surprising is how completely you two misread that study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I read that part and you misread me. Bldg. 7 is the tip of the iceburg in unanswered questions is my point.

There are no unanswered questions of the sort you seem to be asking. There is no evidence of intentional demolition. The fire chief did not order any such thing. You are displaying classic signs of not dealing with shock. You are seeking to assign motivation and blame to people you were already suspicious of rather than adapting to a changing world. That's why you denied the existence of OBL and AQ for so long. I strongly suggest you seek counseling.

You reading my posts ? First of all I've never said what 'sort' of unanswered questions I have and there is plenty of visual and engineering (scientific evidence) for the demolition of 7.

Even Silverstein (the new leaseholder of WTC as of 2001, said in an interview that he was asked and agreed "it (7) should be pulled." 'Pulled is a regular demolition term and no lay person like himself...would ever use that term unless of course.....

As I've said and will continue to say...let's not rehash this whole thing since we will not change anything.

Furthermore, I have never denied the existence of OBL, don't know where you got that but he was never charged with complicity in 9/11 and as I've said Al Quada translates into 'data base' which the CIA used for a record of the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets in Afghan.

pulled as in the firefighters inside the building should be pulled out of it. Please don't be stupid. It was said by the fire chief saying the phrase during the event.

And yes you did deny the existence of OBL  and AQ. AQ does not mean database. The literal translation is "the base" database is a different word.

'Pulled' is a demolition term regardless of what else anyone wants it to mean and Silversrtein was clearly referring to the bldg. not any people inside.

As for fire fighters, there is audio from a radio fire alert to bldg. 7 with the responsible fire fighters clearly saying that the fires could be handled by a couple of trucks they being of simple office materials etc. Suffice it to say there is no scientific proof whatsoever that a 47 story steel bldg. goes into free fall from such fires.

You will have to show me where I said that OBL didn't exist and in fact I have written here that he was on CIA payroll during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Al Quada was a term created by the CIA to describe the 'data base' for as I said...the mujaheddin fighting the Soviets. (it actually means the toilet 'base')

Al-Quada is a name never adopted by the 'group' of only two recruits obtained by OBL from the Taliban when they told him they didn't want to hit America but allowed the recruits because they needed his money.

Stupid is simply denying that there is any problem with the outlandishly preposterous conspiracy theory we got from our govt.



Bullshit.
You posted many times denying that AQ existed and claiming variously that OBL didn't exist or was long dead. I had to point out your mistakes many times just as I now have to point out that a NYFD chief would know next to nothing about building demolition and would never order a building exploded while his own people were still inside. He clearly was responding to a report that the fire was out of control and saying to pull his people out. Imagining some weird delayed demolition of the building is silly beyond belief.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 120
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