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subrosaDom -> RE: Canadian gun control... (10/22/2014 6:17:28 PM)
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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
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ORIGINAL: KYsissy
Your link in no way refutes my claim. And just as many suicides happened by other means.
We aren't talking about 'other means' - we are talking about guns. Pure and simple.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KYsissy
And if it is that simple, we should instead use all the foreign aid we hand out and let England pick up the slack there. Two problems solved.
Guns deaths anywhere in the US aren't our problem.
Gun and drug cartels peddling in the US and across US borders aren't our problem either.
Neither is gun control on the Canadian border.
So why should we pick up the tab for your problems??
We have a solution. So does Australia. It works. Yours doesn't.
Simples! [:D]
Fair point. So a few points about gun deaths.
1) Do they include gun deaths caused when police or citizens shot felons or criminals in the act or in self-defense? In the same way that if someone breaks into your house in an attempt to kill your family and you drown them in the bathtub, that is technically a drowning death, but not a measure of risk.
2) Can one construct a table showing "gang-related gun deaths" and 'non-gang related gun deaths." I'd argue that non-gang-related deaths (gang members killing gang members, that is -- not gang members killing innocent people) are what really matters. In the same way that ACL injuries to the general population aren't helped by included ACL injuries to people playing football.
quote:
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
1) Do they include gun deaths caused when police or citizens shot felons or criminals in the act or in self-defense? In the same way that if someone breaks into your house in an attempt to kill your family and you drown them in the bathtub, that is technically a drowning death, but not a measure of risk.
I know that each country gathers statistics differently and that certain types of crime are categorised differently.
When I have looked at sites for stats, they often point out those differences and either adjust the figures to compensate (merging different categories for instance) and for stats like rape, assault etc, the figures are almost incomparable.
But for gun deaths, whether shooting by cop, suicide, accident or other gun crime, the totals seem to be reasonably consistent in that they tend to include all gun deaths regardless of source.
quote:
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
2) Can one construct a table showing "gang-related gun deaths" and 'non-gang related gun deaths." I'd argue that non-gang-related deaths (gang members killing gang members, that is -- not gang members killing innocent people) are what really matters. In the same way that ACL injuries to the general population aren't helped by included ACL injuries to people playing football.
There are figures out there for such statistics. But I don't see what difference that makes.
A gun death, by whatever means, is a gun death. Period.
Wiki disputes your figures for the US as a whole, not just one very specific and small area.
On pt. 1, that's what I thought. And it is problematic. A cop shooting a dangerous felon who is an imminent threat dead isn't gun violence in the meaning being discussed here. So "good" shoots get conflated with wrong ones, making the total higher than it should be.
On pt. 2, the issue is that most of us aren't in gangs. So guns aren't a threat to us. The gangbangers kill the gangbangers. Whether they use a gun, a knife, their fists or an IED, they're killing each other. There is no effect on the rest of us. So it's not a real risk to me unless I decide to join the Crips or the Bloods or MS-13 tomorrow. If we're looking at societal effects, we have to consider them on the average person, not those who choose a life of violence. In the same way, if in the heyday of the Mafia, two warring families gunned down 50 made men and 1 innocent person, that's 1 relevant murder. That's all that matters to the rest of us. So these data again make guns appear much more dangerous than they are.
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