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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 8:55:15 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		The question is, if hospitals refuse to treat them, does that mean they turn them away ? or take them into isolated dying rooms? If Ebola takes off in America and personally I think that's highly unlikely, how will people with Ebola symptoms react if they've been informed that they won't get treatment? Will they die on the streets like we've seen in Africa?

We can't require every hospital to treat every condition. I don't know about America but here in the UK we have specialist hospitals and none of those hospitals have emergency facilities for anything other than the type of patients they treat. If there is presently not enough isolation units with properly trained personnel, then things need to be stepped up and government money needs spending to provide more of these facilities with highly trained staff.

If these other countries can get it under control then so surely can America.

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:05:00 AM   
Louve00


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Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		My opinion is since they have successfully treated people here in the US, and there are volunteers willing to learn how to care for those with the virus, AND only 3 Americans have contracted the disease, despite ALL the American volunteers over in Africa treating ebola pts, not to forget the military personnel over there too, my opinion is why shouldn't those patients be treated. All the protesters arguing against it do not have to treat these infected people, so the point is mute. If, by chance, any one of us did contract the virus (at the very least theoretically), wouldn't we want to be treated?

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:07:47 AM   
Louve00


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Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		And then there is the point above my first post, by MariaB, too! If we turn those people out, wouldn't our chances of contracting the virus increase? Then you have a bunch of people that other people are willing to let die.

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:13:41 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



4) The point remains -- hey, it's a serious disease, you need to honor quarantine, is not a difficult concept to grasp. I'm sure we can manage it without "cultural memory."




I would disagree because of the anti-vaxxer movement. It has gotten such a stronghold (in some areas) because people really do not remember how bad these diseases are. After all, how bad could polio or mumps really be?

No experience with the concept leads to a lack of realization of WHY these things are important.


**Although I would not rule out stupidity.

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:23:05 AM   
HeartAndSoul31


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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:24:39 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

The question is, if hospitals refuse to treat them, does that mean they turn them away ? or take them into isolated dying rooms? If Ebola takes off in America and personally I think that's highly unlikely, how will people with Ebola symptoms react if they've been informed that they won't get treatment? Will they die on the streets like we've seen in Africa?

We can't require every hospital to treat every condition. I don't know about America but here in the UK we have specialist hospitals and none of those hospitals have emergency facilities for anything other than the type of patients they treat. If there is presently not enough isolation units with properly trained personnel, then things need to be stepped up and government money needs spending to provide more of these facilities with highly trained staff.

If these other countries can get it under control then so surely can America.


Had you read the article, they are trying to set up a network of 20 hospitals qualified to treat ebola.

Also the question is not kick them out in the alley to die or heroic measures.

It is about invasive individual procedures. Like dialysis and intubation and CPR. Things that GREATLY increase the risk to the health care worker and hospital and patients.

It is also about whether health care workers should be FORCED against their will, to do these things.

BTW the Hippocratic oath says nothing about needing to put yourself in mortal danger.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:27:07 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

My opinion is since they have successfully treated people here in the US, and there are volunteers willing to learn how to care for those with the virus, AND only 3 Americans have contracted the disease, despite ALL the American volunteers over in Africa treating ebola pts, not to forget the military personnel over there too, my opinion is why shouldn't those patients be treated. All the protesters arguing against it do not have to treat these infected people, so the point is mute. If, by chance, any one of us did contract the virus (at the very least theoretically), wouldn't we want to be treated?



Many Americans have contracted Ebola. 3 have contracted it while in the US. There is a difference.

But it is rather sad that you would force someone against their will to treat someone with a procedure that greatly increases their risk of contracting a disease that can liquify your organs.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 9:58:42 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yup, there are those nutsuckers who are free riders.

They certainly volunteered everyones sons but their own for Iraq.


You mean, only mindless little ankle-nipper leftist trolls like you got drafted to go to Iraq?

Who knew.


I rememver when you came out here some years ago and claimed to be a veteran, when it was immediately proven that you were not, and that you were a mindless ankle-nipping felching troll.



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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 11:52:53 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

The question is, if hospitals refuse to treat them, does that mean they turn them away ? or take them into isolated dying rooms? If Ebola takes off in America and personally I think that's highly unlikely, how will people with Ebola symptoms react if they've been informed that they won't get treatment? Will they die on the streets like we've seen in Africa?

We can't require every hospital to treat every condition. I don't know about America but here in the UK we have specialist hospitals and none of those hospitals have emergency facilities for anything other than the type of patients they treat. If there is presently not enough isolation units with properly trained personnel, then things need to be stepped up and government money needs spending to provide more of these facilities with highly trained staff.

If these other countries can get it under control then so surely can America.


Had you read the article, they are trying to set up a network of 20 hospitals qualified to treat ebola.

Also the question is not kick them out in the alley to die or heroic measures.

It is about invasive individual procedures. Like dialysis and intubation and CPR. Things that GREATLY increase the risk to the health care worker and hospital and patients.

It is also about whether health care workers should be FORCED against their will, to do these things.

BTW the Hippocratic oath says nothing about needing to put yourself in mortal danger.




Several factors help explain the high proportion of infected medical staff in Ebola plagued regions. These factors include shortages of personal protective equipment or its improper use and far too few medical staff for such a large outbreak. I don't believe for a moment that American medical staff have the same problems. The problem, as far as I can see, isn't the safe administration of dialysis, intubation and CPR. Staff regularly administer these procedures to patients with Hepatitis C, HIV and any other transmittable disease. Infection Control Practices are excellent.

The bigger problem is, undiagnosed cases that could well come into contact with hospital staff. Without the implementation of infection control measures at the first point of contact, healthcare workers will continue to put themselves at risk.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 1:40:48 PM   
Louve00


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Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


Many Americans have contracted Ebola. 3 have contracted it while in the US. There is a difference.

But it is rather sad that you would force someone against their will to treat someone with a procedure that greatly increases their risk of contracting a disease that can liquify your organs.



I thought 5 Americans have contracted ebola. Two nurses who cared for Duncan, two doctor's volunteering in Africa (including the one that was just admitted to Bellevue), and a camera man traveling with NBC's Dr Nancy Sneiderman. Five is a far cry from many.

And sad that they are thinking of forcing healthcare workers to care for ebola pts? I thought the nurses in Dallas were volunteers that stepped up on their own accord to treat Duncan? I read your link and while I didn't read it slowly, I didn't read where the issue is forcing anyone. The issue was to deny treatment to infected patients. I do agree with one physician in the article that a blanket refusal would be unethical. But if people are willing...? I don't get it.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 10/24/2014 1:43:43 PM >

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 1:58:21 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Seems obvious what's lacking is the proper training.

So properly train the nurses in the Ebola units, and let the ones who want to quit go work at Wal-Mart.


Its only been explained here a thousand times that the virus keeps finding its way through every barrier and protocol they try

So lets just make this easy, and properly train YOU for such a thankless, deadly job instead

Take the disease home to YOUR family

Actually Ebola never beats proper use of safety equipment and the correct use of safety protocols. The fact is the CDC and NIH have been working with all the known strains of the virus for decades without a single problem ever. I grew up a few miles from the CDC labs where they house and experiment on samples of the deadliest pathogens known to the world and none have ever gotten loose.

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 2:32:19 PM   
ThirdWheelWanted


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Joined: 4/23/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
But it is rather sad that you would force someone against their will to treat someone with a procedure that greatly increases their risk of contracting a disease that can liquify your organs.


The problem I see with this is, what's next? If you allow health care providers to refuse to treat patients with Ebola, what about ones who don't want to treat AIDS patients?

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 2:53:22 PM   
mnottertail


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How many have died in shootings?

The second amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


The twenty fourth amendment:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

Oh the folks yell about what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand? And so forth, but it it seems to me that the twenty fourth amendment has a more certain claim in its shall not be denied or abridged clause.

Additionally, there is no tax poll or other that is allowed. Voter ID fails, if you have to pay (or any government entity pays) then we have a tax, and aint gonna happen. I am aware of a SCOTUS decision minimizing small sums regarding the registration of voters but this would not cut it.

So we have hundreds to thousands of people who have died and gun control or background checks wont solve it.

We have some number, we don't know what it is by counting, but very small voter fraud, but we must have voter id which will not actually fix most of the voter fraud situations, but that solves it.

We have hundreds of people (maybe thousands) coming thru our borders, but 11 million came in during Reagans days. So we amass troops at the border, and all the state troops, and nutsuckers whining about the people coming thru. And how long it takes to process them. But it is well established that illegal aliens are a civil matter, where Corporations that hire them are criminal as well as civil. Use the criminal law and arrest every officer and manager of the corporation, fix horrendous fines for them, and it will be over in 10 minutes.

We have 5 people who have died from Ebola, and we need to send out the troops and lock down the country and whatnot.

So, is it the more arcane the issue the more the nutsuckers have to pour money into it borrowing and spending, but not fixing?

I told you they were innumerate, they have no concept of proportional response.

Do I about have the gimmick right here?







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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 4:25:06 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Now you are labelling someone a fool for trying to help Ebola patients..... Could you sink any lower ? (Rhetorical question )


Here is some news for you

Normal people place a high value on self preservation


Here is some news for you...youre a fucking idiot, although that isnt news to most of us.

Emergency services put themselves on the line every day. I am glad that they do so.

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 4:30:25 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Many Americans have contracted Ebola. 3 have contracted it while in the US. There is a difference.

But it is rather sad that you would force someone against their will to treat someone with a procedure that greatly increases their risk of contracting a disease that can liquify your organs.



The irony is killing Aylee. You suggest EMS workers shouldnt have to care for the sick, I bet you dont think the military should be excused boots if they fell it is getting too dangerous. Do you not think these people knew of the dangers they signed up for.

FFS what are you people on.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 5:38:48 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

The problem I see with this is, what's next? If you allow health care providers to refuse to treat patients with Ebola, what about ones who don't want to treat AIDS patients?


You think health care providers are publicly owned slaves?

Considering how leftists keep demanding free health care, I can see how some may be brainwashed into seeing it that way now, but as of yet its not yet the case in the USA nearly as much as it is in the UK

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 6:05:21 PM   
ThirdWheelWanted


Posts: 391
Joined: 4/23/2014
Status: offline 		You're right, they aren't slaves, so you can't force them to care for anyone they don't wish to care for. However, if they won't do their jobs, then there's no reason they need to stay employed. I have a lot of respect for nurses, I have an Aunt and a Cousin in the profession, and I met some great ones when Linda was sick for so long. I've also met some real assholes. Most health care workers are contentious, truly want to help people, and deserve the salaries they earn. The assholes could care less and want to get as much as possible for doing as little as possible.

Working with sick people can be dangerous, it always has been. If someone can't deal with that, then maybe they should find another line of work.

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RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 6:15:12 PM   
Lynnxz


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Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I just read the new protocol for Ebola at my hospital.

It's a long way away from the initial precaution of flimsy yellow gown and booties, we get impermeable suits, and all staff gets assistance AND supervision while suiting up or down.

I'd take care of an Ebola patient, I'd just request that I be given a room at the hospital to stay for the duration of my care with the patient, because I'd rather not take the risk of dragging Ebola around town.

Would I take care of a patient WITHOUT the fancy new precautions and equipment and staffing. Lol nope, I don't get hazard pay. It's up to hospital administration to protect me- this isn't field work. I'm not going to be unsafe so the hospital can save a buck.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 6:25:02 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I just read the new protocol for Ebola at my hospital.

It's a long way away from the initial precaution of flimsy yellow gown and booties, we get impermeable suits, and all staff gets assistance AND supervision while suiting up or down.

I'd take care of an Ebola patient, I'd just request that I be given a room at the hospital to stay for the duration of my care with the patient, because I'd rather not take the risk of dragging Ebola around town.

Would I take care of a patient WITHOUT the fancy new precautions and equipment and staffing. Lol nope, I don't get hazard pay. It's up to hospital administration to protect me- this isn't field work. I'm not going to be unsafe so the hospital can save a buck.


You wouldn't want to risk spreading it, to your family or to anyone else - a key consideration.

If a major outbreak of some kind were to hit, psychotic keyboard warriors could scream at their monitors about how health care providers need to make the ultimate sacrifice until they are hoarse, but that wouldnt necessarily make it happen universally

Its a lot to demand of someone



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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Withholding care - 10/24/2014 6:53:57 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I just read the new protocol for Ebola at my hospital.

It's a long way away from the initial precaution of flimsy yellow gown and booties, we get impermeable suits, and all staff gets assistance AND supervision while suiting up or down.

I'd take care of an Ebola patient, I'd just request that I be given a room at the hospital to stay for the duration of my care with the patient, because I'd rather not take the risk of dragging Ebola around town.

Would I take care of a patient WITHOUT the fancy new precautions and equipment and staffing. Lol nope, I don't get hazard pay. It's up to hospital administration to protect me- this isn't field work. I'm not going to be unsafe so the hospital can save a buck.


You wouldn't want to risk spreading it, to your family or to anyone else - a key consideration.

If a major outbreak of some kind were to hit, psychotic keyboard warriors could scream at their monitors about how health care providers need to make the ultimate sacrifice until they are hoarse, but that wouldnt necessarily make it happen universally

Its a lot to demand of someone




Retarded keyboard screamers will go off about anything (just read through the thread). Ignorance is a hell of a drug.




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