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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 11/22/2014 12:28:06 PM   
DominanttMaster


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(that was a very good article he used the term flaming assholes - I like prefer term arse spraying mayhem and then he goes onto discuss Academic Arrogance - of which he admits he was guilty in some ways but nothing dangerous - if he destroyed her life and being then - which, it could have went either way then he is a dangerous asshole - but he learned and it is his job to teach

But i am well aware that people read one article, or paper, or class, or thread, or blog etc and then it is ensconced in their minds as holy writ and it can never be changed
This article or paper etc may refer to one theory or point of view and so on.

I do not like the term peer review (why it alludes to this and only this is acceptable and everything else is errant garbage and the ramblings of mad men) - these articles are reviewed/peers published and often accepted as eg holy writ by some people despite their being a wealth of contradictions or competing theories - which one is correct; perhaps none, some, or all.

i wish i could pick something easy as an example, but i cannot - other than i had a look at the DSM page - and was not particularly interested- although I did find it a little worrisome and dangerous

Do I think BDSM is wrong or bad is lying good or bad etc
sometimes yes and no - it is far too difficult a question to answer without writing a book and they would just be of my mind

sorry i have visitors mid type meh


(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 11/23/2014 8:05:52 PM   
MasterVenom13


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I was wondering when the "MY Mistress" movie filmed in Australia was going to be hitting movie theaters here in the USA, with the same intense interest as "50 Shades of Gray"? O right, 50 shades is still ok here in Merica because its a male dominating a woman and My Mistress is about a female dominating a male. So, when will that mentality start to change here?

I personally am glad that it's about a dominate Male you rarely see a male dominate in the media. Whenever I turn on a TV episode of a show involving BDSM it's always featuring a dominatrix and it never shows a male Dom.

(in reply to Charles6682)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 11/23/2014 9:58:29 PM   
domincalifornia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

But, will the BDSM community simply blend into the spectrum of "normal" human sexuality?

If it becomes commonplace to see people in bondage or wearing fetish clothing or even being spanked at a party, will there then be less a need for separate groups or meeting places?





To me, you're talking about two different things.

Plenty of people incorporate aspects of BDSM into their sex lives. That doesn't mean they want to parade that around in public. Just because a couple likes spanking in private doesnt mean they want to do it at a party.

I have no statistics, but my guess is there are a heck of a lot more people who simply want to add some BDSM spice in their live than there are people who want to be part of a BDSM "community."

The dungeons and BDSM groups will always exist.

(in reply to BecomingV)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 11/24/2014 9:14:37 AM   
YouName


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Are you equating the munchie--->dungeon and everything between that as those who are part of the community ?
I'd say anyone who practises this lifestyle to a certain degree is part of the community.

But maybe not a church going one then :)

(in reply to domincalifornia)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/1/2014 4:42:59 AM   
LadyPact


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I think, BDSM folks want roots. Maybe that is what you are looking for.



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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/1/2014 5:44:48 AM   
AffableSage


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quote:

I do not like the term peer review (why it alludes to this and only this is acceptable and everything else is errant garbage and the ramblings of mad men) - these articles are reviewed/peers published and often accepted as eg holy writ by some people despite their being a wealth of contradictions or competing theories - which one is correct; perhaps none, some, or all.


When something is posted to a scientific journal, the most that we can expect is that someone read it and made sure it was internally consistent. There is a further step which is reproduction of the results. Now that the information is available for people to read, it is up to another team of researchers to try and verify the experiment either through reproduction of the test or conducting a test in another direction to as to cross confirm the results. The problem is that we often never hear of these. They're not as news worthy as the first study to come out pointing to X Y or Z. Even if the conclusions are solid, they still need to be reproduced for them to have any long term merit.

There are no holy writs. Disproving a long held theory with methodical research and posing provable alternatives which better explain phenomena are how Nobel Prizes are won. That's plenty of incentive to do so. Keep in mind that there are few 180 turns in science anymore. They are necessarily refinements on existing theories, as any alternative must also explain the results of the previous experiments.

The DSM is a diagnostic tool. It is not the be all, end all of psychology. It offers a list of descriptions of behaviour so as to aid in diagnosing what problem a person might have. This is so they can better proscribe treatment to a patient who has an obvious need of it. Psychologists/psychiatrists don't just walk from house to house telling people they have problems (It's already been shown you can easily diagnose everyone with something). These people are seeing patients who have come to them with a problem they need solved. They describe their problem and the DSM provides a standardized basis to take symptoms and put a name to the condition. The doctor then uses their wealth of education coupled with experience to decide which conditions are most pressing and then put that person in the most effective treatment so as to help.

If someone who practices BDSM goes to the doctor complaining of hallucinations, the doctor wouldn't go trying to treat the BDSM, even when it was in the manual. The problem as described by the patient was the hallucinations. If they suffered depression, they'd consider their lifestyle as perhaps a contributing factor. But the problem is the depression. If you're still a masochist after you've finished the treatment then it obviously wasn't your problem. The only people they'd treat for masochism would be the people that showed up to their office complaining of problems with their masochism.

quote:

Do I think BDSM is wrong or bad is lying good or bad etc
sometimes yes and no - it is far too difficult a question to answer without writing a book and they would just be of my mind


I think "BDSM" is too broad a topic to consider as a whole. It encompasses too much and over too wide a range of activity. Specific activities within that define the problems if any.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/1/2014 7:30:50 AM   
CaptR


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Without all of the PhD reference .. Nothing we do sans the technological aspect of or toys is new here. It's all been done before and for centuries past. Will our lifestyle be doomed to convention, no. Will we stay on the fringe of normalcy basking in our not so uniqueness, no. Societies come and go as do our sexual rituals. Ours is no different than those gone by. It will one day implode starting the whole process over again. There will always be people who stay within the guidelines of nature and those who push the limits of sexual, sensual pleasure. Acceptance will always be arbitrary. Should we applaud the mainstreaming of bdsm or decry it's ultimate downfall into the mundane? Face it folks sex in all it's forms (yes I know our lifestyle isn't always about sex) will always be new and exciting to someone. We who have been around a while ain't getting any younger, we added our two cents as will others. Thanks to religion, laws both manmade and those of nature, we are merely the watered down version of our ancestors in this lifestyle. Just remember, the more things change the more they stay the same no matter who joins the fold or what influenced them to do so.

(in reply to BecomingV)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 2:57:22 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmpressElsa

I can see that you are having problems understanding what is actually in the DSM. Homosexuality is not labelled as a disorder now in version V and not in IV-revised either.


You've misread and are arguing against a point not made. I've bolded to help you see your your problem understanding:

quote:

The DSM is a profit-mongering tool, poorly constructed and suspect as a valid resource. However, for the purpose of this discussion, let's just go with the idea that it matters. It is used for insurance billing and for labeling anyone who is prescribed drugs. It used to label homosexuality as a mental illness. Until recently, sadomasochism was treated exactly the same... as a mental illness. Now, it's not. So, there's a change in the institutionalized, medical community and that change is a step towards acceptance of BDSM as a healthy expression of human sexuality.


quote:


As for the other points you made, I already see people wearing fetish gear in everyday life.


Yes, we do see that now. The thread is meant to discuss future trends. Will BDSM become more known, understood and accepted?

(in reply to EmpressElsa)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 3:26:18 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domincalifornia


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

But, will the BDSM community simply blend into the spectrum of "normal" human sexuality?

If it becomes commonplace to see people in bondage or wearing fetish clothing or even being spanked at a party, will there then be less a need for separate groups or meeting places?





To me, you're talking about two different things.

Plenty of people incorporate aspects of BDSM into their sex lives. That doesn't mean they want to parade that around in public. Just because a couple likes spanking in private doesnt mean they want to do it at a party.

I have no statistics, but my guess is there are a heck of a lot more people who simply want to add some BDSM spice in their live than there are people who want to be part of a BDSM "community."

The dungeons and BDSM groups will always exist.



Yes, my OP actually asks 3 different questions. :)

I'd guess the same... that only a percentage of folks who like BDSM participate in community, social group gatherings.

When I question how mainstream BDSM will become, I'm thinking not so much in terms of wearing kink fashions regularly, but rather of people talking about it openly.

Do you think there will be a cultural shift towards understanding and acceptance?

When I was young, gay people weren't even spoken of. Now, it's not uncommon to hear a guy talking about juggling work and parenting duties with his husband. Will BDSM echo that kind of social evolution?

I'm expecting it to become accepted when a woman says she has to ask her Master/Dom's permission before she can agree to accept an invitation. However, I'm not expecting any quick changes in the acceptance of a man saying he has to ask his Master/Domme's permission before agreeing to accept an invitation because vanilla life puts such strict limits on manhood.

(in reply to domincalifornia)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 3:39:34 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR
...the more things change the more they stay the same no matter who joins the fold or what influenced them to do so.


Agreed. ^^^

I'm guessing here, but I think that only a tiny portion of the community (including those who remain private) give a hoot about losing the "rebel" nature of BDSM as it becomes mainstream. I think most would trade the image of being "different" for a legal system which didn't criminalize things that make their happy bits... happy.

(in reply to CaptR)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 3:53:30 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AffableSage
If someone who practices BDSM goes to the doctor complaining of hallucinations, the doctor wouldn't go trying to treat the BDSM, even when it was in the manual. The problem as described by the patient was the hallucinations. If they suffered depression, they'd consider their lifestyle as perhaps a contributing factor. But the problem is the depression. If you're still a masochist after you've finished the treatment then it obviously wasn't your problem. The only people they'd treat for masochism would be the people that showed up to their office complaining of problems with their masochism.


There are groups on FL dedicated to getting the word out about which professionals are kink-friendly, including psychologists and such. That is one reason why I think that ^^^ is more an optimistic statement than a realistic one.

That profession has a duty to report and if they are not kink-aware, then a session may have un-welcomed follow-ups with cops, lawyers and judges, particularly if it's a S/M dynamic that is in play. The standard for commitment to a facility for observation is:

Is this patient in danger of harming themselves, or of harming others?

So, my OP acknowledges a change in the guidelines which should make that ^^^ a less polarized question. Room for the grey areas. The legal system is still a problem in this regard.

It's my hope that when Fifty Shades is released, the public discussion that ensues will create more acceptance of BDSM, to the point of it being virtually normalized.

(in reply to AffableSage)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 3:57:54 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Yes.

I believe that eventually, like the other diverse forms of sexuality, that sexual identity, kinks and most of the 100+ paraphilias will lose their stigma and become branches on the tree of normality. I think it will be a long time coming because it will take time and peer pressure to sway organized religions.


Agreed!

What comes to mind, though, is the very public and proud pronouncements of the Christian Right, who connect female submission to a male Dominant, including domestic discipline dynamics, to their religious beliefs.

And, LOL, do you remember that thread in which someone posted a you tube video of 2 women singing about Christian virginity being upheld by only engaging in pre-marital anal sex? LOL

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 4:06:56 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Whether you see expansion or minimization, how do you feel about it, and why?

I like things the way they are. I think its great that none BDSM/Fetish folk can take what they want from this and incorporate it into their own lifestyles. I love it that spanking and a little light bondage is now seen as "normal" and I feel like I'm on my own here when I say, I celebrate the fact that "Fifty Shades" has brought about an otherwise unspoken sexual need in many thousands of people as well as driving large numbers into what was an otherwise unknown BDSM community. Whilst they may be green behind the ears and whilst we, the old timers may mock and ridicule them and even resent them; "Fifty Shades" has put us on the "normal" map.


LOL, no, you aren't the only one here. :) Me, too!

Two things... more people watch film now than read books, so I don't think the tidal wave has hit yet. Valentine's Day, 2015, watch out! LOL Even those who won't go see the film are going to be keenly aware of its opening because it IS a vanilla, public event. This may bring the conversation to the workplace and to the bars and Churches.

What excites me about that is the open discussion about sex, violence and consent.

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 4:10:41 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterVenom13
I personally am glad that it's about a dominate Male you rarely see a male dominate in the media. Whenever I turn on a TV episode of a show involving BDSM it's always featuring a dominatrix and it never shows a male Dom.


The images of men dominating are everywhere. To show a male Dom would be redundant.

(in reply to MasterVenom13)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 4:23:03 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

So, acceptance of gay marriage hasn't changed a need or desire for gay bars, gay clubs or gay interest groups. I think the same will remain true for BDSM. The community will still desire meeting places for this special interest group.


Interestingly enough, I have heard from MANY gay people that they need their own places even more, right now. Because homosexuality has become more openly accepted, there is more mixing in "their" clubs, and gay and other alternative lifestyle lovers are more accepted in regular bars, so some of the clientele gets siphoned off, making every bar just that much more mixed.

So, the "culture" is being viewed by some as being watered down while simultaneously being assimilated.

Just an interesting note.

*smiles*


That is not surprising. :)

Susan Faludi wrote "Backlash" which covers a historical perspective of women's rights by focusing on how each expansion of women's rights, such as Roe v. Wade or the shift to designating marital rape as not only possible, but as a crime eligible for prosecution or an increase in women running for, and winning, political positions.

In short, each legal/political advancement was met with a social "backlash." Corsets come back in vogue, or especially high heels... as if to soothe society's anxiety by a return to fashion which celebrates and sexualizes female dependence.

That relates to the heightened need of gay folk to gather "with their own" in that social change doesn't seem to happen in a linear way, and seems to be more of a "one step forward, two steps back" kind of progress. Because... people cling to their identities. So, I wonder if BDSM folk will have similar responses.

It does make me wonder about club owners and their plans for the increased interest that the opening of Fifty Shades will inevitably bring, in 9 weeks.

(in reply to NookieNotes)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 4:44:55 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

I'd like to discuss the future of the BDSM community.

...Until recently, sadomasochism was treated exactly the same... as a mental illness. Now, it's not. So, there's a change in the institutionalized, medical community and that change is a step towards acceptance of BDSM as a healthy expression of human sexuality.


I don't think you can look to the DSM for any reliable indicators of social acceptance. The DSM V, i believe, categorizes a person who grieves for longer than 2 months for a dead child as mentally ill. (To be honest, I heard that on a radio news program some time ago, so I might have it wrong.)


I wholly reject the DSM V as a credible source of anything except for insurance billing codes. This is a link to the trailer and then to the documentary which exposes the circus by using industry insiders and facts, as their sources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAoRmrqvr4s

trailer ^^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgCpa1RlSdQ

Full documentary ^^^

I suggest that anyone who takes drugs or loves someone who takes them, become familiar with this documentation. If not through this film than by doing the research before ingesting anything.

I only brought it up here, though, because the manual (DSM) is used not only for billing purposes, but also for forensic legal consideration in criminal justice cases. While these medical witnesses used to talk about the criminal mind of the sadist, now what can they say?

Ending up in court or in jail on a BDSM-related issue appears to be one of those, "It doesn't matter to me." things, until it does!

(in reply to Bhruic)
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RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 5:00:16 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
I'd like to discuss the future of the BDSM community.


There is a big difference between acceptance and mainstream.

The biggest change I have seen in my life time is that the internet has allowed kinksters of all stripes to find each other, become aware of what is going on in the scene all over the world, and to realize that they are not alone, and that their passions are OK.

And that has lead to some significant social changes in policy - such as surrounding the legality of sex clubs, etc. - and a growing general awareness of kink, and acceptance of it to a certain degree... at least, few are shocked about it anymore.


Do you think that equates with a chipping away of the stigma?

Perhaps it will be the rebellious young who will begin to live "out" to their families and friends. (I see some exorcisms coming... LOL)

I'd be interested to read more about what you see as the differences between "acceptance and being mainstream." What would each look like, sound like...?

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 5:08:44 AM   
BecomingV


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Hi LP :)

I recall, way back when, you posted what I think you called a "pet peeve" regarding the association of the label "sadist" with criminality.

So, I'm wondering from your POV, what a more accepting society would mean. Current laws and ignorance combine to make sadism risky behavior... more so than say, masochism, or playful spanking dynamics or psychological domination, right?

Would exposure, education and understanding translate into legal acceptance, which would free sadists from taking legal risks, while they are taking edge play risks?

Is there a down side to sadists, do you think, should BDSM become more mainstream?

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 6:28:10 AM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

I'm expecting it to become accepted when a woman says she has to ask her Master/Dom's permission before she can agree to accept an invitation. However, I'm not expecting any quick changes in the acceptance of a man saying he has to ask his Master/Domme's permission before agreeing to accept an invitation because vanilla life puts such strict limits on manhood.

Strictly from a vanilla standpoint, I would have to say that ever since I can remember, it's been socially acceptable for couples to have to run by their social engagements, activities, and jointly coordinated schedules with one another prior to making any changes in plans or making a commitment with outside parties (including family members) which will invariably affect the other partner in some way.

In fact, once you are an item, it is expected and understood that to NOT do so would be a discourtesy, as would expecting one half of a couple to neglect to run something by the other half, even in a perfunctory fashion. Are there *wink*winks and *nod*nods? Sure, there can be, such as when it appears that a new couple is prematurely allowing one partner to take control over the other's decision-making abilities.

How many times have single friends suddenly found that their attached friend can no longer join in with them as a group? Now that Sally is with her new boyfriend, she's never available to do things with her circle of gf's. When my best friend of over a decade got engaged, and then later married, I never saw her anymore. It was the standard indefinite, "Oh, we have to get together some time and...," which doesn't happen unless you can make plans together as couples or as a family outing.
Bachelors are going to look at their newly attached buddy as being pussy-whipped, but a lot of that is sour grapes.

Nobody blinked an eye when a married man, such as my dad, would say he had to check with or run it by the missus first. Very, very common. And believe me, nobody would have thought that my dad was henpecked (and my mom didn't make him feel that way either).
The same with my mother saying that she would check with my dad first on something. That's just what considerate partners do.

The only time it becomes an issue is when it appears to others that somebody is being overly controlled, has anxiety, or is not happy in their relationship with an oppressive partner.
Yes, it will be a long while before it is socially acceptable to say "My Master this..." or "My Mistress that...," but then, why should it be common knowledge or open up a Pandora's Box of nosey questions? There's nothing wrong with keeping what's private, private.
My friends, family, business associates & co-workers, and ordinary folk don't need to know what goes on in my home, much less in my bedroom. It's none of their damn business.

P.S. About the S&M distinctions. Sado-masochism is how one can differentiate between (criminal) sadism and (self-destructive or pathological) masochism, from what I understand. I've used these terms interchangeably here, as do many, in describing themselves as a Kind Sadist or a Sensual Sadist, because it's understood in a consensual BDSM context. To someone not familiar with BDSM, it can be helpful to make this distinction, that one is a sado-masochist, not a (psychopathological) Sadist. Legalities aside, since those are separate mechanisms, of course.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to BecomingV)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Future of the BDSM Community - 12/5/2014 7:25:32 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Almost a whole page of posts from V.
And I suspect V will pummel this to death until they hear what they want to hear.


will the BDSM community simply blend into the spectrum of "normal" human sexuality?
No, it never will.

If it becomes commonplace to see people in bondage or wearing fetish clothing....
As it has been said, to some degree, certain fetish styles have already hit the street.

...or even being spanked at a party, will there then be less a need for separate groups or meeting places?
No. People will always want some privacy to indulge in their kink.

Whether you see expansion or minimization, how do you feel about it, and why?
It will exist. It will change as necessary. Nobody has a crystal ball and nobody knows the future.
Anything anyone says here is just conjecture, hope, and guesswork.

_____________________________

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BecomingV)
Profile   Post #: 40
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