RE: Class Warfare

RE: Class Warfare (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 3:57:14 AM)
However, you are focusing raiding corporate assets in the short term, when people earn wealth in a thousand other far more benign ways.

Zonie63 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 8:43:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YouName Thanks Zonie. Be on the outlook for the cold war turning hot though as it has in some other places. I expect that it will, especially as more programs are cut and the so-called safety net diminishes. I wouldn't expect to turn into any organized class warfare anytime soon, though. We'll probably just see more of a continued deterioration of services/quality of life and an accompanying rise in general mayhem. But at least it will be a well-armed populace. One thing that seems certain in the coming decades is that our ability to influence international affairs will slowly be diminished, which will cause the government and ruling class to lose prestige in the eyes of its own people. For right or wrong, the aggressive globalist agenda carried out by our government has been a source of unifying focus on a collective scale; that's another thing that's kept the country together and kept different classes from tearing each other apart. So, as long as there's "enemies" out there, whether real or imagined, then that's something that keeps most people in line.

tj444 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 12:18:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery What's wrong with making money? nothing.. but then don't pretend like you give a crap about the 99%... I don't have a problem with him or any of the 1% making money other than that and using politicians and scamming taxpayer money to do it... Making money is fine and good, its the unquenchable greed of the 1% that isn't (imo).. that is one of the biggest causes of human suffering and death (tobacco corps, big war, big insurance, etc etc)..

YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 12:30:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: YouName Thanks Zonie. Be on the outlook for the cold war turning hot though as it has in some other places. I expect that it will, especially as more programs are cut and the so-called safety net diminishes. I wouldn't expect to turn into any organized class warfare anytime soon, though. We'll probably just see more of a continued deterioration of services/quality of life and an accompanying rise in general mayhem. But at least it will be a well-armed populace. One thing that seems certain in the coming decades is that our ability to influence international affairs will slowly be diminished, which will cause the government and ruling class to lose prestige in the eyes of its own people. For right or wrong, the aggressive globalist agenda carried out by our government has been a source of unifying focus on a collective scale; that's another thing that's kept the country together and kept different classes from tearing each other apart. So, as long as there's "enemies" out there, whether real or imagined, then that's something that keeps most people in line. I wrote a much more verbose post before I removed it all. This is indeed the wrong place to discuss such things. One thing I did mention was the safety net and how the middle class has slowly been drained of their wealth contributing to this enslaving welfarestate that keeps the plebs in a constant state of dependency and thus in perpetual inaction. But with the crashes happening ever more frequently the fictitious wealth on which this class has built their standing will erode, leaving only debt. Once this erodes (and this is what those teaparty-people don't get) so will the inaction. Purported enemies will not be enough to keep the peace, no matter how good it sounded in Orwells 1984. I'd appreciate it if we continued this discussion in private tho.

MariaB -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 1:00:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YouName no matter how good it sounded in Orwells 1984. Off topic but I had to say, we are presently living on the river that George Orwell named himself after. Back to topic! How does America define "class"? An American friend of mine who works in a French hospital as a theater nurse, describes herself as "upper class". Granted, her family are fairly wealthy people but in England, class isn't defined by wealth. Upper class in the UK would be a Lord, a Knight or royalty. Middle class people in the UK are more likely to call themselves working class and working class will argue that they are middle class.

YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 1:09:58 PM)
I didn't know about the river, cool! Yup, the class definition in general is a problem. I'd say using "middle class" in any serious discourse is intellectually dishonest or just plain stupid. Class is not based on some arbitrary line of income. I feel that in the US a lot of politicians and news programs used the "middle class" euphemism to avoid bringing up real class terminology and to rail in a large majority of the population when explaining why something would be good or bad for them. I'm also interested hearing from americans why "working class" is almost always associated with working poor in the US. When did this start? I guess it's a bit like the UK from what you say, and it's starting to gain ground here too. But it's very counter productive IMO even tho I end up using it too [:o]

Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 1:29:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery What's wrong with making money? nothing.. but then don't pretend like you give a crap about the 99%... I don't have a problem with him or any of the 1% making money other than that and using politicians and scamming taxpayer money to do it... Making money is fine and good, its the unquenchable greed of the 1% that isn't (imo).. that is one of the biggest causes of human suffering and death (tobacco corps, big war, big insurance, etc etc).. Whoa. What on earth are you talking about? When did only the 1% make money? What makes you think everyone in the 1% came by their wealth via ill-gotten gains? What makes you think being in the 1% automatically precludes you from caring about the rest? Does your generalization include people like Richard Branson (who's actually a great guy)? Or Bono? Or Andrew Carnegie, who gave away millions when that was unheard of? Are you describing Oprah Winfrey? Or Jeff Skoll? Or Muhammad Yunus?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 5:50:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: YouName no matter how good it sounded in Orwells 1984. Off topic but I had to say, we are presently living on the river that George Orwell named himself after. Back to topic! How does America define "class"? An American friend of mine who works in a French hospital as a theater nurse, describes herself as "upper class". Granted, her family are fairly wealthy people but in England, class isn't defined by wealth. Upper class in the UK would be a Lord, a Knight or royalty. Middle class people in the UK are more likely to call themselves working class and working class will argue that they are middle class. We don't have royalty, technically, in the US. Some people treat celebrities like royalty, but they are not. "Classes" are socio-economic strata that don't have hard definitions (like exactly dollar amounts). The "upper class" can also be defined differently, depending on where you are. That is, the more one has, the more it takes to define "upper class" to a certain degree. What a poor person thinks is upper class may be considered middle class by someone at a higher socioeconomic level.

Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 6:05:42 PM)
It doesn't take a lot. The top 20 percent of income earners bring in a household income of just over $100,000. The top 10 percent of earners have a household income of more than $148,687. To be considered in the top 1 percent, household income is at least $521,411.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 6:20:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery It doesn't take a lot. The top 20 percent of income earners bring in a household income of just over $100,000. The top 10 percent of earners have a household income of more than $148,687. To be considered in the top 1 percent, household income is at least $521,411. $150k is a lot of money, imo. But, if I make $140k, it wouldn't be that much. But, if I made $20k, it would be an enormous amount of money. How is the "middle class" defined? Did someone in the Administration liken the Middle Class to people making up to $250k?

Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/25/2014 6:54:15 PM)
You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why. If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k? Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000.

eulero83 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 1:51:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: YouName no matter how good it sounded in Orwells 1984. Off topic but I had to say, we are presently living on the river that George Orwell named himself after. Back to topic! How does America define "class"? An American friend of mine who works in a French hospital as a theater nurse, describes herself as "upper class". Granted, her family are fairly wealthy people but in England, class isn't defined by wealth. Upper class in the UK would be a Lord, a Knight or royalty. Middle class people in the UK are more likely to call themselves working class and working class will argue that they are middle class. when talking about class warfare it's usuallly defined by employment: laborers clerks small business owners professionals managers major executives/big corporation owners/ruling class. I tried to order them by income even if that depends on other factors, but the middle class should begin somewhere in the clerks in the middle of the clerks' income bracket up to the middle of small business owners/professionals' bracket.

YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:35:45 AM)
Yeah, I guess those are the new classes for some reason, a bit more well defined than the "lower/working/middle/upper" class system. Maybe there's some logic in it, since the dynamics aren't quite the same anymore. Many professionals work as consultants and are effectively self employed and one could argue sell their services and solutions rather than their time. But meh... I still like the old system more. I think it's more relevant today than ever before. The lumpenproletariat - The dependent on the state, the petty thieves, the beggars, those outside the normal cycle of labour exploitation. The proletariat - The working class which sells their labour for money. Petite bourgeoisie - (Peasants, small shop owners, professionals perhaps, etc). (Somewhere here there are the intellectuals as well) Now I would divide the usual class of bourgeoisie into two. The working upper class and the parasitical financial class. It's in the book The Empire that I take this from I guess. The paradox (there must be a better word) is that in almost all cases, even perhaps in some cases at the absolutely lowest degrees we have all become parasites of one and other. Almost all of us have some pension fund, some savings account some stocks or such. We have all become moneylenders, capitalists, parasites. We do not actively contribute, advise or involve ourselves in the businesses we own direclty or indirectly, yet we profit from them. Some more, some less. It's quite insane if you think about it.

MariaB -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:45:33 AM)
Thanks guys [:)] Class structure is something I have a keen interest in and so this topic is right up my street. It sounds like America is just another but bigger version of the UK as far as "class wars" and its a very foggy definition. The biggest recent changes we have seen in Britain is "working class" versus "middle class" In the UK, the working classes started to be demonized during the Thatcherite era. The society we live in today is an exact result of that. The British working classes were once the backbone of our economy but they had too much power. Whilst Thatcher took away that power, she rewarded the working class with some grand aspirations; she made borrowing easy for all and she told the working class people that they could all be "middle class" now. In today's Britain we can drive down a nice leafy road full of three bedroom semi-detached houses that all have curb appeal. A large percentage of those owners will be mortgaged to the hilt and prisoners to their hefty debts. Its these people; the bus drivers, the shop assistants and the manual workers that are more likely to tell you they are middle class. Social aspirations (though morality is personal) have generally become very important to what were once proud working class people because they have been led to believe that "class status" has afforded them the things their parents never had. If the "new" middle classes are no longer working class, who now fits into the working class category of Britain? Since the 1980s our government have launched regular attacks on welfare dependant families, single mothers and those living on the poverty line. Working class lost its identity and became dismissed along with scroungers, benefit fraudsters, drug addicts and loud mouthed ladettes. The British poor became an object of fear and ridicule especially from the new middle classes, the new "social hierarchy."

YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:53:32 AM)
Interesting take indeed. But why did you say before that the more objectively (ahem) defined middle class people often don't refer to themselves as that but instead as working class? Are we talking about the intellectuals, the teachers, the doctors here or who? Are they simply more aware of the concept of class or do they want to identify with the working class as they find the upper ones to be of lesser appeal? I'm just guessing here, I'm eager for your response!

eulero83 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 5:28:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Thanks guys [:)] Class structure is something I have a keen interest in and so this topic is right up my street. It sounds like America is just another but bigger version of the UK as far as "class wars" and its a very foggy definition. The biggest recent changes we have seen in Britain is "working class" versus "middle class" Here in Italy people define their income class to generate simpathy in their interlocutor, so you have to guess (without asking that would be offensive) what class the other person thinks he fits in and go for it. This creates very akward moments. In political talks it's usually workers (read employees) vs employers and small business owners/craftmen vs big corporations (and sometimes professionals vs everybody else).

MariaB -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 5:39:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YouName Interesting take indeed. *But why did you say before that the more objectively (ahem) defined middle class people often don't refer to themselves as that but instead as working class?* Are we talking about the intellectuals, the teachers, the doctors here or who? Are they simply more aware of the concept of class or do they want to identify with the working class as they find the upper ones to be of lesser appeal? I'm just guessing here, I'm eager for your response! I can only take a stab at this. I would of thought its mainly about attitude. I personally think that the British have a unique obsession with "class" and of course we can locate ourselves within any class structure we want, rather than be assigned to it by our occupation or even birth rights. Middle class, left-wing voters are more likely to identify themselves as working class, even if they do have a university degree, than the middle class right wing voters. Its interesting that (this is something I read about in a recent study), the aspiring middle classes and the "true" working class are more likely to vote conservative; whereas the upper middle classes are more inclined to vote labour.

MariaB -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 5:50:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Thanks guys [:)] Class structure is something I have a keen interest in and so this topic is right up my street. It sounds like America is just another but bigger version of the UK as far as "class wars" and its a very foggy definition. The biggest recent changes we have seen in Britain is "working class" versus "middle class" Here in Italy people define their income class to generate simpathy in their interlocutor, so you have to guess (without asking that would be offensive) what class the other person thinks he fits in and go for it. This creates very akward moments. In political talks it's usually workers (read employees) vs employers and small business owners/craftmen vs big corporations (and sometimes professionals vs everybody else). This made me laugh. We live some of our life in the southern French Alps and our home is a mere twenty minutes from the Italian border. A lot of Italian holiday makers and day trippers visit our city (Briancon) and its usually very clear who they are because they, unlike the French, drive big sporty cars and again unlike the French, are impeccably dressed. They always look like a million dollars. Am I right in believing that material wealth or the appearance of wealth is very important to the Italian? I've always said that the Italians remind me of the British with a cherry on top [;)]

Zonie63 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 6:03:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: YouName no matter how good it sounded in Orwells 1984. Off topic but I had to say, we are presently living on the river that George Orwell named himself after. Back to topic! How does America define "class"? An American friend of mine who works in a French hospital as a theater nurse, describes herself as "upper class". Granted, her family are fairly wealthy people but in England, class isn't defined by wealth. Upper class in the UK would be a Lord, a Knight or royalty. Middle class people in the UK are more likely to call themselves working class and working class will argue that they are middle class. when talking about class warfare it's usuallly defined by employment: laborers clerks small business owners professionals managers major executives/big corporation owners/ruling class. I tried to order them by income even if that depends on other factors, but the middle class should begin somewhere in the clerks in the middle of the clerks' income bracket up to the middle of small business owners/professionals' bracket. I think it's a bit nebulous to try to define "class" in America. Even income, profession, or educational level won't really tell the whole story. A garbage man in NYC might start out at a higher wage than a teacher with an M.A. in Mississippi. It used to be that those in the "upper class" were the only ones who could afford to go to college, indicating someone who was "refined," "cultured," "educated," etc., whereas someone who didn't go to college had to "work for a living." When I was growing up, the common wisdom was that it's better to go to college to get a degree - any degree - than it was to just go straight to work or learn some sort of trade that didn't require college.

Zonie63 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 6:08:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why. If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k? Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000. What do you mean by "emotional reactions"?

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