RE: Class Warfare (Full Version)

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YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 7:09:55 AM)

Lol Eulero ^^ Yup, in discussions with southern Europeans (and I am on by descent) it's a big hit and miss thing.
Although I find it more common in Greece and central/northern Italy than in let's say Croatia or Slovenia. ¨

(One good way to play the middle ground is to blame the politicians! That usually works, lol).

I haven't been to the south of Italy and Sicilly but I get the feeling it matters less there.


MariaB, I once saw a documentary about Paris and its citizens quite elitist approach to the subject. Partly because of the enormous process of gentrification in Paris.
Even the petit leftist cafés should supposedly have an aura of labour aristocracy around them.
Is this true for the central parts of the city with your experience?



MariaB -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 7:29:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Lol Eulero ^^ Yup, in discussions with southern Europeans (and I am on by descent) it's a big hit and miss thing.
Although I find it more common in Greece and central/northern Italy than in let's say Croatia or Slovenia. ¨

(One good way to play the middle ground is to blame the politicians! That usually works, lol).

I haven't been to the south of Italy and Sicilly but I get the feeling it matters less there.


MariaB, I once saw a documentary about Paris and its citizens quite elitist approach to the subject. Partly because of the enormous process of gentrification in Paris.
Even the petit leftist cafés should supposedly have an aura of labour aristocracy around them.
Is this true for the central parts of the city with your experience?


Very much so YouName [:D]



eulero83 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 7:43:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Thanks guys [:)] Class structure is something I have a keen interest in and so this topic is right up my street.

It sounds like America is just another but bigger version of the UK as far as "class wars" and its a very foggy definition.

The biggest recent changes we have seen in Britain is "working class" versus "middle class"



Here in Italy people define their income class to generate simpathy in their interlocutor, so you have to guess (without asking that would be offensive) what class the other person thinks he fits in and go for it. This creates very akward moments.
In political talks it's usually workers (read employees) vs employers and small business owners/craftmen vs big corporations (and sometimes professionals vs everybody else).


This made me laugh.

We live some of our life in the southern French Alps and our home is a mere twenty minutes from the Italian border. A lot of Italian holiday makers and day trippers visit our city (Briancon) and its usually very clear who they are because they, unlike the French, drive big sporty cars and again unlike the French, are impeccably dressed. They always look like a million dollars.

Am I right in believing that material wealth or the appearance of wealth is very important to the Italian? I've always said that the Italians remind me of the British with a cherry on top [;)]



In Briancon you probably see the higher income classes, I'd say yes appearance is very important to italian but on the other hand showing materialism is considered very rude. So you always have to dress appropriately otherwise you are shaming yourself and all your family, but if you show you care about money, both by being cheep or by being too generouse people will avoid you, that's why in a cafe you can hear a 15 minutes long negotiation that starts with "let me pay"... "no I have to pay, please let me" over two espresso and a croassant worth 5€.



eulero83 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 8:02:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Lol Eulero ^^ Yup, in discussions with southern Europeans (and I am on by descent) it's a big hit and miss thing.
Although I find it more common in Greece and central/northern Italy than in let's say Croatia or Slovenia. ¨

(One good way to play the middle ground is to blame the politicians! That usually works, lol).

I haven't been to the south of Italy and Sicilly but I get the feeling it matters less there.



I have the feeling it matters more in the south but it's less likely they'll let you understand it matters to them. Italian comunication is like jazz what you don't say sometimes is more important than what you say, and hand there is a lot of hand gestures.



YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 8:26:49 AM)

Oh really? Haha. Good to know, I guess!

The sicilians I've met elsewhere indeed seemed quite relaxed and unconcerned with wealth as a measure of success in life. But yea, never been there.
One more reason I thought it would matter less is because of the fact that the north is the industrial place with the labour unions and big businesses while the south has more artisans, fishermen, self employed people and such.

My favourite italian place in my hometown is owned by a sicilian family. They have open a little bit when they want, extras on the pizza sometimes cost extra, sometimes not, they are very friendly and we talk about random stuff, but there's not even the slightest sense of faux politeness. In fact when the owner is tired or angry he will show it X.x

Seriously, sometimes it can be hard to even get him to make a pizza. Like "Do I have to?..." But they are so good so of course he has to!




eulero83 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 8:36:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

when talking about class warfare it's usuallly defined by employment:

laborers
clerks
small business owners
professionals
managers
major executives/big corporation owners/ruling class.

I tried to order them by income even if that depends on other factors, but the middle class should begin somewhere in the clerks in the middle of the clerks' income bracket up to the middle of small business owners/professionals' bracket.


I think it's a bit nebulous to try to define "class" in America. Even income, profession, or educational level won't really tell the whole story. A garbage man in NYC might start out at a higher wage than a teacher with an M.A. in Mississippi. It used to be that those in the "upper class" were the only ones who could afford to go to college, indicating someone who was "refined," "cultured," "educated," etc., whereas someone who didn't go to college had to "work for a living."

When I was growing up, the common wisdom was that it's better to go to college to get a degree - any degree - than it was to just go straight to work or learn some sort of trade that didn't require college.



It would be harder here to define classes by income as there is less inequality, those where the fighting classes in the class warfare here in italy in the 70's, nowdays it's more everybody vs major executives/big corporation owners/ruling class.



Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 9:15:11 AM)

Where did this notion of defining class this way come from? I've never heard of it:

laborers
clerks
small business owners
professionals
managers
major executives/big corporation owners/ruling class.

To start with, laborers range from minimum wage clerks to linemen earning six figures. Small business owners range from struggling to break $30,000/yr to millions annually. Professionals include renewable contract professors at $35,000 to doctors making $300,000. Managers range from $16,000 for a convenience store to millions. Major executives/owners range from taking no salary at all sometimes during hard times to billions.

So not an effective measure of class. That's why economists and social scientists use quintiles.



YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 9:21:17 AM)

Welcome to the Sociologist vs Economist debate, turn to page 10251541352129563482 of the discussion.




*Utilitarian scientist*

But...what about me! I think science could solve our problems! Let's just figure out what works best objectively for all?

*Both of them*

STFU!



eulero83 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 9:43:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Oh really? Haha. Good to know, I guess!

The sicilians I've met elsewhere indeed seemed quite relaxed and unconcerned with wealth as a measure of success in life. But yea, never been there.
One more reason I thought it would matter less is because of the fact that the north is the industrial place with the labour unions and big businesses while the south has more artisans, fishermen, self employed people and such.

My favourite italian place in my hometown is owned by a sicilian family. They have open a little bit when they want, extras on the pizza sometimes cost extra, sometimes not, they are very friendly and we talk about random stuff, but there's not even the slightest sense of faux politeness. In fact when the owner is tired or angry he will show it X.x

Seriously, sometimes it can be hard to even get him to make a pizza. Like "Do I have to?..." But they are so good so of course he has to!




I think I misunderstood you because of cultural differences, considering wealth a meter for success is what defines a jerk I was talking about the impression you want to give of yourself. I meant they would care more to show they belong to the same class you do, this means that if they think you are poor they'd do everything to not make you feel uncomfortable and if they feel you are rich they'll less likely accept something from you. Asking someone income is very rude so you can't know for sure this brings akwardness sometimes.



Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 9:53:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Welcome to the Sociologist vs Economist debate, turn to page 10251541352129563482 of the discussion.




*Utilitarian scientist*

But...what about me! I think science could solve our problems! Let's just figure out what works best objectively for all?

*Both of them*

STFU!

No, I don't think so. Show me the reference.

Breaking it down this way makes no sense, because the categories are not mutually exclusive.

And Economics and Sociology are both Social Sciences, after all.

It reads more like the poster's invention.




YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 10:11:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Oh really? Haha. Good to know, I guess!

The sicilians I've met elsewhere indeed seemed quite relaxed and unconcerned with wealth as a measure of success in life. But yea, never been there.
One more reason I thought it would matter less is because of the fact that the north is the industrial place with the labour unions and big businesses while the south has more artisans, fishermen, self employed people and such.

My favourite italian place in my hometown is owned by a sicilian family. They have open a little bit when they want, extras on the pizza sometimes cost extra, sometimes not, they are very friendly and we talk about random stuff, but there's not even the slightest sense of faux politeness. In fact when the owner is tired or angry he will show it X.x

Seriously, sometimes it can be hard to even get him to make a pizza. Like "Do I have to?..." But they are so good so of course he has to!




I think I misunderstood you because of cultural differences, considering wealth a meter for success is what defines a jerk I was talking about the impression you want to give of yourself. I meant they would care more to show they belong to the same class you do, this means that if they think you are poor they'd do everything to not make you feel uncomfortable and if they feel you are rich they'll less likely accept something from you. Asking someone income is very rude so you can't know for sure this brings akwardness sometimes.



Ah my bad, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that people like to complain with friends about other classes. Like a bunch of business dudes sitting around a table complaining how the plebs cause problems for them or such.

Yes, then I will agree with you completely now that I understand you.



YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 10:20:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Welcome to the Sociologist vs Economist debate, turn to page 10251541352129563482 of the discussion.




*Utilitarian scientist*

But...what about me! I think science could solve our problems! Let's just figure out what works best objectively for all?

*Both of them*

STFU!

No, I don't think so. Show me the reference.

Breaking it down this way makes no sense, because the categories are not mutually exclusive. Economics and Sociology are both Social Sciences, after all.

I reads more like the poster's invention.




Show you the reference? It wasn't me that came with the classifications.
I think our culminative point is that class indeed isn't about income while you think it should be but can't and is thus useless.

Read about the counter revolutions of France and the role of the peasantry and the artisans . They weren't necessarily richer than the workers but had other class interests.




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 10:27:48 AM)

Wow, do you ever have reading comprehension issues.

I pointed out that economic class is usually studied in quintiles. That's *entirely* about income -- upper 20%, next 20%, next 20%, next 20%, bottom 20%.

What about that "isn't about income"? And I certainly DIDN'T say ANYTHING resembling thinking "is should be but can't and is thus useless." Exactly the opposite.

I *did* point out that the poster's classification isn't reasonable and is uncited. YOU then went off on some weird assertion of a non-existent "Sociologist vs. Economist debate" (which you apparently can't cite because you just made it up).

I'm good on the history, thanks.




YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 10:31:48 AM)

Quintiles* aren't class*. You can freaking call them your "Lower class, lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, lower upper class, upper class and upper upper class" but seriously, they aren't class. And yes I got you :)


"So not an effective measure of class. That's why economists and social scientists use quintiles."

I was refering to this part of your post.

*Which ever 5 you use.
*They are income groups.



edit: Well, I'm not so sure you well versed in history are since you called his definitions as unheard of (and emotional?).



edit2: Yeah, just disregard it then since it's apparently just made up. There's no conflict. What was Marx and what do you think of his made up shit?






Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 10:44:10 AM)

Now suddenly you start looking for references.

You're having a conversation all by yourself in your head, "answering" things I didn't say and that we weren't talking about.

Have another drink, and enjoy your day and your imaginary conversation.



YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 10:58:53 AM)

You just got owned and can't admit it ^.^

Alright alright, maybe Marx is too oldschool for ya.
What are your thoughts on the invisible class empire?


Or your thoughts on the emergence of the neo-feudual society?
The philosophers and sociologists promoting this concept re-use old class definitions.

Maybe you can share some insight into the artisan and peasant counter-revolutionaries and why they didn't side en masse with the worker revolts even though their econnomic situation wasn't that different from those of the workers? In fact the artisans were being crushed, especially by the time of the Paris Commune.



Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 11:00:36 AM)

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better.

When you sober up, review your class notes about following a topic.



YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 11:02:14 AM)

Your entire school of thought is dying :-) America is the only stronghold where it remains. Within informatics it's already blown apart. Nuked.



MariaB -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 11:03:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Thanks guys [:)] Class structure is something I have a keen interest in and so this topic is right up my street.

It sounds like America is just another but bigger version of the UK as far as "class wars" and its a very foggy definition.

The biggest recent changes we have seen in Britain is "working class" versus "middle class"



Here in Italy people define their income class to generate simpathy in their interlocutor, so you have to guess (without asking that would be offensive) what class the other person thinks he fits in and go for it. This creates very akward moments.
In political talks it's usually workers (read employees) vs employers and small business owners/craftmen vs big corporations (and sometimes professionals vs everybody else).


This made me laugh.

We live some of our life in the southern French Alps and our home is a mere twenty minutes from the Italian border. A lot of Italian holiday makers and day trippers visit our city (Briancon) and its usually very clear who they are because they, unlike the French, drive big sporty cars and again unlike the French, are impeccably dressed. They always look like a million dollars.

Am I right in believing that material wealth or the appearance of wealth is very important to the Italian? I've always said that the Italians remind me of the British with a cherry on top [;)]



In Briancon you probably see the higher income classes, I'd say yes appearance is very important to italian but on the other hand showing materialism is considered very rude. So you always have to dress appropriately otherwise you are shaming yourself and all your family, but if you show you care about money, both by being cheep or by being too generouse people will avoid you, that's why in a cafe you can hear a 15 minutes long negotiation that starts with "let me pay"... "no I have to pay, please let me" over two espresso and a croassant worth 5€.


Very much like the French then. I love the whole attitude and wish it were more like this in the UK.







tj444 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 11:12:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What's wrong with making money?

nothing.. but then don't pretend like you give a crap about the 99%... I don't have a problem with him or any of the 1% making money other than that and using politicians and scamming taxpayer money to do it... Making money is fine and good, its the unquenchable greed of the 1% that isn't (imo).. that is one of the biggest causes of human suffering and death (tobacco corps, big war, big insurance, etc etc)..

Whoa. What on earth are you talking about?

When did only the 1% make money?
What makes you think everyone in the 1% came by their wealth via ill-gotten gains?
What makes you think being in the 1% automatically precludes you from caring about the rest?

Does your generalization include people like Richard Branson (who's actually a great guy)? Or Bono?
Or Andrew Carnegie, who gave away millions when that was unheard of?
Are you describing Oprah Winfrey? Or Jeff Skoll? Or Muhammad Yunus?

I never said only the 1% make money.. I never said everyone in the 1% came by their wealth via ill-gotten gains.. if I said that, show me where..
I also never said that being in the 1% automatically precluded them from caring about the rest.. I just happen to think Buffett is a big hypocrite and sleaze, but he is good at appearing to care about "the rest"..
Do you happen to know Richard Branson (to know he is actually a great guy)? I have no opinion on him, other than he does stunts which seem a little strange to me.. but PR is PR, I guess.. Most of those I don't have an opinion on (some I have never heard of) with the exception of Bono, he is just another hypocrite imo.. a guy that transfers his music business to another country to avoid paying taxes has no right to criticize other countries about how they spend their tax money imo.. he can take a hike..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314543/Bonos-ONE-foundation-giving-tiny-percentage-funds-charity.html



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