RE: Class Warfare (Full Version)

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YouName -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 11:44:15 AM)

Ah common Music.
Let's have some fun!
So this is a paper that concerns which basis (Social Class or Income "Class") is best used for the measurment of consumer practises.
Let's begin with two facts:

The author acknowledges both.
The author suggests there is a conflict / debate on which is the best to use in this case.

Social Class: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class

Social Class vs Income Class

Full version in case you don't have access:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=25986788798051912619


Quote:
quote:

"The results of the two studies clearly contradicted
the conclusions of earlier social class researchers who
found significant relationships between social class
and consumption, but concluded that social class was
superior to income without examining income. The
range of consumption areas examined by Myers et
al. (1971) and Myers and Mount (1973) is sufficiently
broad to justify conclusions vis-c-vis the general superiority
of social class or income. "


The paper does not define social class. But your critique was that it was absolutely baffling that people didn't use income quintiles as foundations for class.


But let's go a bit more on the issue. We were discussing the working class and the middle class in England earlier.
Here is one discussing it from an american perspective:

Link that blew up the forum

It clearly talks about how income is blurred over the class lines and is apparently critical of previous publications that say it is not so. (On a very rapid and selective reading)

Anyway this is interesting:
quote:

it has been argued on the one hand that
the middle class is losing status and is likely to
undergo a "status panic," while the working
class, on the other hand, is gaining status.


Let's remember this was done in the 1960's! A bit of curious history.


Point being that your continous inclination to only look at income and then to even deny the other side of the issue and that there even is an issue is ridiclous.


edit: Lol that link blew up the forum!


edit2:

How's this for a reference, can it become any more explicit:
Economists and Sociologists converging

". Communication between economics and sociology is hindered by intellectual
barriersuch as fundamentally different assumptions with regard to the roles of
induction and deduction, as well as by institutional and professional obstacles.
Opportunities are grawvingfor integrating sociologicalnd economic explanations, asthe
interests of sociologists and economists are converging and more work is now occurring
on the border between the two disciplines"

Meaning that they haven't been before :-)
Also Swedberg acknowledges that especially economists have been very reluctant to take in the perspective of the sociologist.

Apparently the theory of the rational man was in 1995 bridging the gap. The rational choice theory is actually being burried now 20 years after the publication of that article.

It's funny how you bash Sanity. Let's see if you'll take this in yourself or not.




Marini -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 12:43:30 PM)

YouName,

Most American citizens are well aware that the divide is widening between the those at the top and those at the bottom.
The Middle Class has been suffering and the number of families considered to be Middle Class continues to decline.

The Black middle class has suffered tremendous losses, and has been losing ground for at least the last 15-20 years.

Many of the new jobs are low paying, often part-time, and usually offer no benefits.

Those Americans that are not aware of the steady decline in the numbers of the American middle class, are either ignorant, uninformed, or often as on here, pretending to be deliberately ignorant/oblivious/and or obtuse.

CNN Money- Part time jobs put MILLIONS in poverty

CNN Money-- 7 set backs for the middle class


Salon.com RIP American Middle Class 1946-2013

RIP American Middle Class, as a "younger" baby boomer, I remember it well.
It was a great run while it lasted.
RIP American Middle Class
1946-2103

[sm=goodnight.gif]




JeffBC -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 2:10:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Most American citizens are well aware that the divide is widening between the those at the top and those at the bottom.

I can't speak to this. What I can tell you is that while they may be aware that the divide is widening they truly have no idea just how vast it is. It's interesting to see studies comparing what people think is real, what they think is optimal, and what is actually real.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 2:11:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why.
If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k?
Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000.


$200k?

$250K?

$250K or $97K?

$250K?





DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 2:25:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Most American citizens are well aware that the divide is widening between the those at the top and those at the bottom.
The Middle Class has been suffering and the number of families considered to be Middle Class continues to decline.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Most American citizens are well aware that the divide is widening between the those at the top and those at the bottom.

I can't speak to this. What I can tell you is that while they may be aware that the divide is widening they truly have no idea just how vast it is. It's interesting to see studies comparing what people think is real, what they think is optimal, and what is actually real.


Income divides don't matter as long as you can get by on what you make. While it would be easier if we all were given millions, that won't happen, and we shouldn't. The bottom quintile today isn't comprised of the same families as it was 20 years ago, who aren't the same bottom quintile 20 years before that. The top 10% aren't all the same top 10% from 20 years ago. There's turnover.

While we all want to live better lives, have more stuff, and not have to worry about money, it's more about our choices in life than anything. I can't live like Warren Buffett at my current income level. I can't live like many simply because my debt levels are too high (working on it, but it's tough!). Those were my fault. My choices.

People in the US attempt to "keep up with the Joneses" too much and sabotage their futures all the time. I was guilty of it. I still am to a certain extent. Unless you have the same (or better) financials as the Joneses, you won't keep up with them. That you want to keep up should be motivation to improve yourself. Far too often, it isn't.




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 2:37:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why.
If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k?
Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000.


$200k?

$250K?

$250K or $97K?

$250K?



Which proves only that you're not the only one who really sucks at math.




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 2:42:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What's wrong with making money?

nothing.. but then don't pretend like you give a crap about the 99%
... I don't have a problem with him or any of the 1% making money other than that and using politicians and scamming taxpayer money to do it... Making money is fine and good, its the unquenchable greed of the 1% that isn't (imo).. that is one of the biggest causes of human suffering and death (tobacco corps, big war, big insurance, etc etc)..

Whoa. What on earth are you talking about?

When did only the 1% make money?
What makes you think everyone in the 1% came by their wealth via ill-gotten gains?
What makes you think being in the 1% automatically precludes you from caring about the rest?

Does your generalization include people like Richard Branson (who's actually a great guy)? Or Bono?
Or Andrew Carnegie, who gave away millions when that was unheard of?
Are you describing Oprah Winfrey? Or Jeff Skoll? Or Muhammad Yunus?

I never said only the 1% make money.. I never said everyone in the 1% came by their wealth via ill-gotten gains.. if I said that, show me where..
I also never said that being in the 1% automatically precluded them from caring about the rest.. I just happen to think Buffett is a big hypocrite and sleaze, but he is good at appearing to care about "the rest"..
Do you happen to know Richard Branson (to know he is actually a great guy)? I have no opinion on him, other than he does stunts which seem a little strange to me.. but PR is PR, I guess.. Most of those I don't have an opinion on (some I have never heard of) with the exception of Bono, he is just another hypocrite imo.. a guy that transfers his music business to another country to avoid paying taxes has no right to criticize other countries about how they spend their tax money imo.. he can take a hike..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314543/Bonos-ONE-foundation-giving-tiny-percentage-funds-charity.html

Actually, you really did say that. Exactly that.

Sounds to me more like you simply hate anyone with more cash than you. Guessing that's a lot of people.




JeffBC -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:13:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Income divides don't matter as long as you can get by on what you make.

Income divides don't matter (well, they do but we'll just go with your thought there for a moment). But what does matter is fairness. Pretty much any organized collection of individuals relies on some basic understanding that the system is more or less fair.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:16:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why.
If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k?
Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000.

$200k?
$250K?
$250K or $97K?
$250K?

Which proves only that you're not the only one who really sucks at math.


Or, your definition of "Middle Class" isn't what's being used.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:18:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Income divides don't matter as long as you can get by on what you make.

Income divides don't matter (well, they do but we'll just go with your thought there for a moment). But what does matter is fairness. Pretty much any organized collection of individuals relies on some basic understanding that the system is more or less fair.


There are lots of things that aren't fair in the US system. I'm all for changing that, but not by being unfair in other ways. It's the whole "two wrongs don't make a right," idea.

As far as tax loopholes go, I'm all for closing all of them.




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:37:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Income divides don't matter as long as you can get by on what you make.

Income divides don't matter (well, they do but we'll just go with your thought there for a moment). But what does matter is fairness. Pretty much any organized collection of individuals relies on some basic understanding that the system is more or less fair.

Except, of course, Congress.




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:38:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why.
If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k?
Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000.

$200k?
$250K?
$250K or $97K?
$250K?

Which proves only that you're not the only one who really sucks at math.


Or, your definition of "Middle Class" isn't what's being used.


OK Sunshine. You explain to me how the "middle class" is somewhere above the top 20% line.

Take your time. Use your toes as well as your fingers.

FFS. No wonder America is such a mess. [8|]




JeffBC -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 3:40:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There are lots of things that aren't fair in the US system. I'm all for changing that, but not by being unfair in other ways. It's the whole "two wrongs don't make a right," idea.

Any two people are likely to disagree to one extent or another on what "Fair" is. But I'm pretty sure both you and I would agree that bribing politicians to make laws which are in your favor.... or simply forbidding them to prosecute you because you contribute too much to their campaigns... is not what most people mean by "fair".

I'm not against rich people and poor people within limits. I'm strongly against rigging the system so that the rich remain rich and the poor remain poor indefinitely.




Marini -> RE: Class Warfare (11/26/2014 8:38:08 PM)

In most people's minds, and going by "most" charts.:
*Granted this is a broad range, and what is considered Middle Class is often regional.

Middle Class is considered about 50,000 - 100,000
UPPER Middle Class would be over 100,000 -200,000
People making over 200,000 are NOT Middle Class, they are considered wealthy.

lol, at 250,000

USNews Money: What it means to be Middle Class today

find me some sources




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/27/2014 5:06:28 AM)

Those aren't "charts" -- it's an opinion poll. And if "upper middle class" includes $100,000-200,000, then you have to be in the upper 20% of income earners to be there.

How do you figure 80-90% highest income is upper "middle"?

And why aren't the $40,000 folks in the middle class?

Here's some ACTUAL charts.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/27/2014 5:33:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You guys have nothing but emotional reactions to data when its in dollars. I don't know why.
If the top 20% makes $100,000+, why would "middle class" be $250k?
Income is usually examined in quintiles. That would mean the middle three are from $26,000 to $100,000, with the average American earning $52,000.

$200k?
$250K?
$250K or $97K?
$250K?

Which proves only that you're not the only one who really sucks at math.

Or, your definition of "Middle Class" isn't what's being used.

OK Sunshine. You explain to me how the "middle class" is somewhere above the top 20% line.
Take your time. Use your toes as well as your fingers.
FFS. No wonder America is such a mess. [8|]


FFS, is right! From a purely mathematical standpoint, your definition is correct. Nowhere did I disagree. By your definition, anyone that made $20,600 in 2012 is "Middle Class." Technically, that is correct, but, aside from the mathematics (which isn't the only definition people use, btw), I don't know that most people would consider that "Middle Class." I even demonstrated that there are people in leadership roles that don't use the mathematical definition.

So, maybe, just maybe, there is a different definition being used.

Don't those antlers hurt with your head so firmly up your ass?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/27/2014 5:39:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There are lots of things that aren't fair in the US system. I'm all for changing that, but not by being unfair in other ways. It's the whole "two wrongs don't make a right," idea.

Any two people are likely to disagree to one extent or another on what "Fair" is. But I'm pretty sure both you and I would agree that bribing politicians to make laws which are in your favor.... or simply forbidding them to prosecute you because you contribute too much to their campaigns... is not what most people mean by "fair".
I'm not against rich people and poor people within limits. I'm strongly against rigging the system so that the rich remain rich and the poor remain poor indefinitely.


I think we've already determined that you and I aren't that far apart in what we think is fair. We do disagree on how we get to that fair point. And, we do agree that rigging the system is wrong.

We probably disagree on how to "unrig" the system, too.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Class Warfare (11/27/2014 5:42:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
lol, at 250,000
find me some sources


I'm not the one defining middle class as $250k. I did provide sources that showed that some of our politicians DO define middle class up to $250k.




Musicmystery -> RE: Class Warfare (11/27/2014 5:45:01 AM)

Here's a clue...read carefully . . .

A lot of what gets said by people in leadership roles isn't true. That's why there are fact-checking sites, for example.

Granted, the line between poverty and lower middle class isn't a picnic. But that's not what we were discussing: the completely subjective and erroneous notion people commonly hold of how much income puts someone in the top 20%, let alone the top 1%.

All that's happening here is you and a few others frantically demonstrating the truth of the emotional hold that erroneous belief has on much of the populace.

You could quibble about where to draw lines -- say, for example, middle class starts above the bottom 30%, or even, I suppose, 40% (though that's really stretching things). But the "middle" is certainly NOT in the top 20%. Too mathematical for you? It's what middle means:

mid·dle
ˈmidl/
adjective
adjective: middle

1.
at an equal distance from the extremities of something; central.
"the early and middle part of life"
synonyms: central, mid, mean, medium, medial, median, midway, halfway
"the middle point"
(of a member of a group, series, or sequence) so placed as to have the same number of members on each side.
"the woman was in her middle forties"
intermediate in rank, quality, or ability.
"there is a dearth of talent at the middle level"
synonyms: intermediate, intermediary
"the middle level"
(of a language) of the period between the old and modern forms.
"Middle High German"


noun
noun: middle; plural noun: middles

1.
the point or position at an equal distance from the sides, edges, or ends of something.
"she stood alone in the middle of the street"


You could even quibble about "mean" and "medium" vs. "middle" and you STILL aren't going to land in the top 20%.




Zonie63 -> RE: Class Warfare (11/27/2014 5:58:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Those aren't "charts" -- it's an opinion poll. And if "upper middle class" includes $100,000-200,000, then you have to be in the upper 20% of income earners to be there.

How do you figure 80-90% highest income is upper "middle"?

And why aren't the $40,000 folks in the middle class?

Here's some ACTUAL charts.


Still, the article linked by Marini had some interesting points to it:

quote:

We asked a handful of academics and financial advisors for their thoughts.

There is no universally recognized definition of middle class. There are federal poverty level guidelines, so if you happen to wonder if you're poor, you can consult the Department of Health & Human Services (not that you likely need guidelines to tell you if you're poor). But after that, you're on your own to decide if you're lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class or in the fabulously wealthy territory. But to get us started thinking about financial status, a U.S. household with four people living off $23,850 or less is considered poor. (Hawaii and Alaska, with higher costs of living, have different guidelines.)


So, if there's no universally recognized definition of middle class, what's all the arguing about?




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