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ORIGINAL: MariaB

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ORIGINAL: YouName

I would like to add to Zonies already good post that there is something we could call the occassional poor but old upper class family or historically the poor (and often times lower) aristocracy.
In many circles these people, as long as they are honorable and get by are thought of as more noble and closer to the real "upper class" or what ever than the newely rich who in the other sense of the Word often lack class



edit: By good I don't mean I agree with Everything but I still like it :)

I agree with this. whilst money can buy you a lot of things it can’t buy you class. How can wealth alone be sufficient to allow entry into the upper class? This means if you are a waitress that wins big money on the lottery you automatically assign yourself to the elite upper classes? What about a laird who donates all his land and property to a heritage trust. A man who has had the best education money can buy and who has only ever mixed with the gentry. Does giving his money away make him working class?

Fundamentally class isn’t mobile unless you marry into it. At least that is how I see it.

I think the difference between Britain and the US is, in Britain there is no shame in being working class unless you're an inverted snob. Because of the pseudo middle class people here, people often feel embarrassed to state themselves in that category and proudly opt to be working class.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
From my understanding, being the President of the United States is something for everyone to aspire to in the US; ask most Working Class Englishmen and they're rather die than be the Prime Minister of England because the implications would be that you'd have to mix with a load of snobs and people with whom you have pretty much nothing in common.

Well said and a good point, NG.

In my heyday, I was taking home over £3,000 a week and rubbing shoulders with people who think nothing of spending a 4-digit sum for a suit for work, 3-digit 'loose change' on their credit cards for an after-work drink.

Meh!!
I spent £40 for a suit in a charity shop because I needed 'the uniform' to do my job given the snobs I was working with.
When I finished work, I went home and had fish'n'chips with a cuppa because that's what I preferred.
If it wasn't for what I did for a job, I'd have been shunned in that circle and I didn't feel comfortable in it.
Gimme a pint in the local to a cocktail in a fancy bar any day.

did ya make a chip sammich????
thats the test!!!
LOL

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

geh yeself down chip ole and gerus a chip butti wi scraps!

NorthernGent, like you, I come from humble beginnings in the north of England and probably not to far away from where you were born. I come from a family of pit workers and steel workers and in France, the silver mines. Proud working class people they were even though they often didn't have 2 bob to rub together (whatever a bob was!). They all had class, though I doubt the gentry would agree. That isn't the sort of "class" I'm referring to though. Social class structure is very different to good grace.

I detest the word "upper class" and think it should be abolished from the English language.

Have you seen that documentary that's presently on channel 4 (I think) called, "can't get the staff"? If not you should take a peek because the snobbery is unbelievable.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

geh yeself down chip ole and gerus a chip butti wi scraps!

NorthernGent, like you, I come from humble beginnings in the north of England and probably not to far away from where you were born. I come from a family of pit workers and steel workers and in France, the silver mines. Proud working class people they were even though they often didn't have 2 bob to rub together (whatever a bob was!). They all had class, though I doubt the gentry would agree. That isn't the sort of "class" I'm referring to though. Social class structure is very different to good grace.

I detest the word "upper class" and think it should be abolished from the English language.

Have you seen that documentary that's presently on channel 4 (I think) called, "can't get the staff"? If not you should take a peek because the snobbery is unbelievable.

A 'bob' is a shillin', Maria.

Ten bob is fifty pence.

Should have said, where in the North, because the 'wi' sounds like Lancashire.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


A 'bob' is a shillin', Maria.

Ten bob is fifty pence.

Should have said, where in the North, because the 'wi' sounds like Lancashire.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I think Maria is a tad too young to know things like a bob, a tanner, a half crown, a florin, a ha'penny and a thre'penny bit. The farthing was a bit before my time though.
And jokes like being "bent as a nine-bob note" would be wasted.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


A 'bob' is a shillin', Maria.

Ten bob is fifty pence.

Should have said, where in the North, because the 'wi' sounds like Lancashire.

Todmorden, Burnley and Sheffield :)

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I think Maria is a tad too young to know things like a bob, a tanner, a half crown, a florin, a ha'penny and a thre'penny bit. The farthing was a bit before my time though.
And jokes like being "bent as a nine-bob note" would be wasted.

Thanks freedomdwarf do I give the illusion I'm a spring chicken then?! I do remember the ha'penny and the thre'penny bit and the sixpense but I don't remember tannar or half crown or florin. I think I was about 5 when we went decimal.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
"Money can't buy you class".

This may be a pertinent point in terms of what is deemed to be "class" and the cultural difference, but one of the Yanks would have to confirm or dissuade.

"Class" in the way we usually mean, i.e. having class, is nothing to do with Upper, Middle or Working Class in England.

My family had buckets of "class". The type of people who, when someone knocked on their door short of a few bob for a cup of tea, gave them it; although they didn't have much money themselves. The type of people who when push came to shove and people had fallen on hard times, they didn't judge them but were kind to them. The type of people who held principles and more often than not did the right thing.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


A 'bob' is a shillin', Maria.

Ten bob is fifty pence.

Should have said, where in the North, because the 'wi' sounds like Lancashire.

Todmorden, Burnley and Sheffield :)

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I think Maria is a tad too young to know things like a bob, a tanner, a half crown, a florin, a ha'penny and a thre'penny bit. The farthing was a bit before my time though.
And jokes like being "bent as a nine-bob note" would be wasted.

Thanks freedomdwarf do I give the illusion I'm a spring chicken then?! I do remember the ha'penny and the thre'penny bit and the sixpense but I don't remember tannar or half crown or florin. I think I was about 5 when we went decimal.

I know Toddy reasonably well.
I worked in Halifax for 4 years and lived in Shelf.

If you know the sixpence, you should know it by its common name - a tanner.
A florin was a 2-bob bit, two shillings. 10p in modern coinage.
A half-crown was worth 2/6d. Two shillings and sixpence. Quite a hefty coin for its value. The crown was worth 5 shillings and even bigger, but not many in circulation. Most people never saw one.

I was in Secondary school when we went decimal.
15th Feb, 1971 at 12 noon. lol. Dunno why I remember that stupid fact.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The British money system has always confused me ever since I was a kid and first heard the ditty "Sing a Song of Sixpence."

It's easy enough to understand the value of the coins (at least when one has a chart to refer to), but I've also noticed a different way of expressing how much something is worth. Like in old movies when saying the price of something, one might hear "3 pounds, 10 shillings" or something like that. (This was also an early memory for me when I was watching the musical "Oliver" as a kid, and during the song "Boy For Sale," they say they want to sell him for "7 guineas," but someone was offering "3 pounds, 10 shillings," which I gathered to be too low an offer.)

I initially believed that "shilling" referred to the equivalent of "cent" as we would use it here in the US, but I later came to understand that a shilling is just a term for a specific coin, just as we use "penny," "nickel," "dime," "quarter." But then, we wouldn't ordinarily say "3 dollars, 10 nickels." We would just say "3 dollars, 50 cents," without specifying which exact coins to use to make up 50¢. "Cent" does not refer to an actual coin, and that's why the usage of the term "shilling" threw me at first, since I associated it with "cent" when such was not the case.

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The Romans used Libra (our old £), Solidus (our old silver shilling), and Dinarius (our old silver pennies, later copper).
Hence, we ended up with our £sd = pounds, shillings and pennies (pence).

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The old British coinage was a mystery unto itself.
It originated from when the Romans invaded Britain and introduced a semi-standard way of trading using coins rather than the barter system.

Some historian (years ago) explained it as a way of not having to hump goods and cargo/animals all around the country.
So, if in the south, he could trade, say, 5 Libra each for his 3 pigs, and be given a pouch with coins worth 15Libra.
He could then journey further up north and trade his pouch of coins for a cow or 2 goats or whatever.
By using coinage, he didn't have to transport his pigs to barter for goats or cow etc.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
"Money can't buy you class".
This may be a pertinent point in terms of what is deemed to be "class" and the cultural difference, but one of the Yanks would have to confirm or dissuade.
"Class" in the way we usually mean, i.e. having class, is nothing to do with Upper, Middle or Working Class in England.
My family had buckets of "class". The type of people who, when someone knocked on their door short of a few bob for a cup of tea, gave them it; although they didn't have much money themselves. The type of people who when push came to shove and people had fallen on hard times, they didn't judge them but were kind to them. The type of people who held principles and more often than not did the right thing.

I would say it means the same thing over here, at least as far as "having class" in the context you're saying. In this context, I think "class" refers more to one's character and behavior, as opposed to one's wealth or social standing. Then there might be those regarded as having "no class" to describe someone who is uncouth, ill-mannered, or just an overall clod in general.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The British money system has always confused me ever since I was a kid and first heard the ditty "Sing a Song of Sixpence."

It's easy enough to understand the value of the coins (at least when one has a chart to refer to), but I've also noticed a different way of expressing how much something is worth. Like in old movies when saying the price of something, one might hear "3 pounds, 10 shillings" or something like that. (This was also an early memory for me when I was watching the musical "Oliver" as a kid, and during the song "Boy For Sale," they say they want to sell him for "7 guineas," but someone was offering "3 pounds, 10 shillings," which I gathered to be too low an offer.)

I initially believed that "shilling" referred to the equivalent of "cent" as we would use it here in the US, but I later came to understand that a shilling is just a term for a specific coin, just as we use "penny," "nickel," "dime," "quarter." But then, we wouldn't ordinarily say "3 dollars, 10 nickels." We would just say "3 dollars, 50 cents," without specifying which exact coins to use to make up 50¢. "Cent" does not refer to an actual coin, and that's why the usage of the term "shilling" threw me at first, since I associated it with "cent" when such was not the case.

The old British coinage was a mystery unto itself.
It originated from when the Romans invaded Britain and introduced a semi-standard way of trading using coins rather than the barter system.

Some historian (years ago) explained it as a way of not having to hump goods and cargo/animals all around the country.
So, if in the south, he could trade, say, 5 Libra each for his 3 pigs, and be given a pouch with coins worth 15Libra.
He could then journey further up north and trade his pouch of coins for a cow or 2 goats or whatever.
By using coinage, he didn't have to transport his pigs to barter for goats or cow etc.
The Romans used Libra (our old £), Solidus (our old silver shilling), and Dinarius (our old silver pennies, later copper).
Hence, we ended up with our £sd = pounds, shillings and pennies (pence).

The pre-decimalisation British system of coinage was introduced by King Henry II. It was based on the troy system of weighing precious metals. The penny was literally one pennyweight of silver. A pound sterling thus weighed 240 pennyweights, or a pound of sterling silver.
In those days, the somewhat arbitrary numbers of coins seemed sensible.

There's a fun school website that explains all the stupidities of our old coinage.
http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/moneyold.htm

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ORIGINAL: eulero83
I think there is no more reason to keep customary systems instead of decimal systems, but they made sense in the old days when few people had basic knowledge of mathematics, with a 12 based system you can count higher numbers on your fingers as you can count the 12 phalanges of a hand using the thumb as cursor and keeping track with the other hand you can add up to 60 instead of 25.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: tj444

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ORIGINAL: YouName

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ORIGINAL: tj444

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ORIGINAL: YouName

Tj444, I said the post was for Music, the automatic system put it as a reply to you! :)

that is why you are supposed to click onto "reply" to the post you are wanting to reply to.. that way people know..

Yeah np. Dunno why you thought it was directed to you tho, nothing in there concerned your post.
All good tho tj, all good.

It was directed to me (whether you intended it to be or not) cuz at the bottom right corner of each post it shows who it is directed to (unless you specify in your post it is general and directed to no one by saying "Fast reply" or "FR").. that post said it was directed to me cuz the bottom right said "(in reply to tj444)".. check that post for yourself..

eta- fyi, the person you reply to usually gets an email saying they were replied to so who reply to makes a difference as far as ongoing dialog goes and you look like a flake replying to people you aren't "talking" to.. If Music is who you wanted to reply to but he doesn't get an email saying you replied and he doenst read each post in the thread, then he wont reply to your reply.. do you understand that?

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

I just stole this snippet because I think it sums up the British class system better than I can. http://www.justlanded.com/english/United-Kingdom/Articles/Culture/British-Culture

One of the things which initially confuses foreigners living in the UK is its class system, which is a curious British affectation. Entry to the upper class echelons is rooted in birthright and ill-bred upstarts with pots of ‘new’ money (particularly foreigners with unpronounceable names), find they’re unable to buy entry to the most exclusive clubs and homes of England (even when they’re seriously rich). Many Britons are obsessed with class and for some, maintaining or improving their position on the social ladder is a full-time occupation (the ultimate aim being to acquire a knighthood or peerage). The rest of us pretend we’re a ‘better’ class than we actually are, with the exception of a few politicians who are busy trying to live down their privileged past in order to court popularity with the underprivileged masses.

Class is, of course, wholly unimportant in the UK, provided you attended public school, speak with the right accent and have pots of inherited money.

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Social class structure is very different to good grace.