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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 3:55:24 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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Really what this all boils down to is the audacity of the Germans. I mean, had they not taken our language, shifted vowels and consonants to twist it into some perverse simulacra of the very first language spoken on the planet, English, then none of the confusion would exist. After the Germans did this, everyone jumped on the band wagon twisting English into some unrecognizable form of the mother language.

Jus sayin

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 4:07:00 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
...twisting English into some unrecognizable form of the mother language.

Says he who lives in a place in the US where the biggest form of twisting of the English language is prevalent.

I think the Americans have butchered English far more than anyone else over the shortest time span.

Jus' sayin'.

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 4:08:54 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
...twisting English into some unrecognizable form of the mother language.

Says he who lives in a place in the US where the biggest form of twisting of the English language is prevalent.

I think the Americans have butchered English far more than anyone else over the shortest time span.

Jus' sayin'.


Like I said, English is the mother language, spoken by the first men that originated from America.

Jus sayin

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 4:39:02 AM   
HeartAndSoul31


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Status: offline 		I like good grammar. Is it that important to me? It really depends on what position the person plays in my life, and also I do try to consider whatever limitations a person may have. English is my first language and my only language. I know I make mistakes! I think getting a point made is more important then nit picking. If one is deciphering someone's writing ability over their expression, I do have the opinion the person really doesn't care about the actual point being made. Ha!
Cursive writing can be beautiful and show personality. Should it be mandatory? Maybe not. I hate to see it taken out of the system though.




< Message edited by HeartAndSoul31 -- 11/27/2014 4:57:25 AM >

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 4:49:18 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

The problem for those with structural neural issues affecting text and spoken communication, as well as the improperly educated or those who just won't make an effort, was most succinctly stated long ago: "If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say." Actual communication is when intent and reception/understanding are identical. The military long ago recognized this with message protocols where the complete cycle requires the receiver to repeat the message clearly back to the sender.
In our communication, it can take considerable effort to clearly identify what the Intent is even with 'correct' spelling, grammar or pronunciation. With less, and the often emotional response to an incorrect interpretation, not only misunderstanding occurs, but relations may be damaged or broken. I see no real fix, it's part of the human condition? Other than each actually trying to hear/read themself and at least with print, proof reading before hitting 'send' or 'OK'?


Your post has given me some interesting “food for thought”. Whilst I’ve always believed the written word is prone to misinterpretation, especially regarding tone; I’ve never considered it to be fundamentally flawed as a form of communication. I’ll remind myself of this next time I’m frustratingly misunderstood or misunderstand others.


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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 10:52:02 PM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		Text has to be seen differently from spoken conversation. Usually you get One chance to clearly state something in text. Grammatical or word errors can be fatal to an expression or it's understanding. Well meant readers do their best, but clarity and precision is huge.
With verbal conversation, the body language and emotional dynamics of speech (For a Listener) tells a lot about how well the intent was deciphered. Most conversations veer radically as intent is mistaken, restated and hopefully finally grasped, which starts off whole new responses. Why face-to-face has such a different dynamic to text even in back and forth such as IM. Phone is in between, missing the whole body elaboration that conveys so much additional richness sound may miss? With all that, grammar has far less impact or importance compared to the sparse information just text conveys. Sarcasm suffers greatly, for example.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 11/27/2014 10:55:04 PM >

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/27/2014 11:27:39 PM   
orgasmdenial12


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Personally, I don't care about the block / cursive debate but I DO care about whether or not I can read it. If your handwriting is not legible then it's pointless and it's a virtual self-created disability, imo. In the last ten years I have met two people who claimed to only be able to write in block capitals because they use a computer for everything. Watching them try to write anything by hand was painful and a bit embarrassing. I don't care whether or not your handwriting looks like copperplate, but if you are reliant on a computer and printer every time you want to use written communication then you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of frustration. How do these people even survive in life and especially work?!

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/28/2014 3:53:57 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Your post has given me some interesting “food for thought”. Whilst I’ve always believed the written word is prone to misinterpretation, especially regarding tone; I’ve never considered it to be fundamentally flawed as a form of communication. I’ll remind myself of this next time I’m frustratingly misunderstood or misunderstand others.


On the other hand, there are people that respond better to written communication in some scenarios.

My Pet and I used both spoken and written communication when we argue. When one gets to heated, I put the brakes on, and switch to the other a bit later.

For example, in an argument, at the 'round-and-round' point. I stop the conversation, by stating where I feel we are right now, and my temporary decision in how it will be handled.

In 24-48 hours, I either send him an email with my perspective, and invite him to respond, or I ask him to send me his perspective.

Reading the words, and taking the time to write them, can take some of the charged emotion out of the exchange, leading to more clear-headed thinking, and the right words being used.

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/28/2014 4:15:48 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		I think there are exceptions and you are one of them Nookie. What is very clear to me is, you have excellent communication skills through the written word. Its no surprise to me that you can write one good book after another. I can't think of a time when I've had difficulty understanding your posts but like I said, you are a bit of an exception.

That will be $5 please

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/28/2014 5:41:53 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasesir88

This boils down to personal preference.

For me, the attempt at good grammar is important. After all, you wouldn't show up at a first date looking like a slob.


Honey, you're far too young for me but...grammar will cull all the offending offerings in an instance.

Before the second hand clicks.

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 1:50:09 AM   
orgasmdenial12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
I’ll say it again; there is no correlation between keen smart minds and good grammar.


I disagree. I find there to be an immediate and obvious correlation between good spelling and grammar, and the ability to do well academically and then in their career. Unless a person has dyslexia or speaks English as an Additional Language (EAL) then poor spelling and grammar is simply laziness. The writer cannot be bothered to make the effort to write properly and incorrectly assumes that the reader will not care. As this thread shows, many readers do care about spelling and grammar, to the point where it will be a turn off if obviously flawed.

As regards dyslexia, I can usually tell the difference between poor spelling and dyslexia within one or two messages. People who spell or use grammar badly will use it the same wrong way every time (constantly writing 'your' for you're, etc.). People with dyslexia may spell the same word different ways each time they use it or put a completely different, wrong word in place. Two of my exes had dyslexia and I picked it up within a couple of times of texting them. Whereas my first partner claimed to have dyslexia but was actually just too lazy to learn to spell correctly. With the advent of predictive texting, his spelling improved massively overnight because the dictionary was constantly getting him to check the spelling of words and correct them.

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 1:57:33 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Ok but I have to ask; do you believe there is no such thing as learning difficulties caused through things like oxygen starvation at birth? Do you believe that brain injury could be problematic in the written word?

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 3:09:39 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Ok but I have to ask; do you believe there is no such thing as learning difficulties caused through things like oxygen starvation at birth? Do you believe that brain injury could be problematic in the written word?

Nobody is saying that Maria.

We have all acknowledged that there those who have a genuine reason not to be able to write properly.
Whether that's a brain injury (at birth or otherwise) or other disabling things like dyslexia or dispraxia or some other motor or neuron problem.


I agree with OD and I posit that the majority that don't use proper grammar, spelling, and use of the proper words are either ill-educated or lazy (or both).
Simple stuff with technology like using "i" instead of "I" or "dont" instead of "don't" is just laziness, pure and simple. The technology is capable of doing it, the operator just can't be assed to 'shift' the letter or add the apostrophe for proper use.

The same for those that constantly use CAPS.
My stepson does this and says he can't read 'normal' writing if it isn't in CAPS. His own handwriting is completely illegible and what's more, he writes in all sorts of directions so his sentences look like spaghetti on the paper. He can't even keep his individually scribbled letters (splodges) at the same size or orientation.
It is so bad that he has trouble fitting more than a couple of dozen words on an A4 page.
He did a mechanics course for a year. He passed the practical part with flying colours (because that's what interests him) but miserably failed the written part because what he wrote, even his name, was illegible.
He has a very mild form of dyspraxia and he uses that to his full advantage and plays on it.

However, just to bolster the argument, he is intelligent but the laziest mofo I have ever come across.
Why do I say lazy and not blame the dyspraxia?? Because when it suits him for his own purposes and he thinks nobody is looking, you wouldn't know he had dyspraxia.
Simply lazy; a shyster of the first degree.



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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 3:32:03 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 4:32:41 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Nobody is saying that Maria



Really? so when orgasmdenial said,

quote:

Unless a person has dyslexia or speaks English as an Additional Language (EAL) then poor spelling and grammar is simply laziness.


I misunderstood?

quote:



We have all acknowledged that there those who have a genuine reason not to be able to write properly.
Whether that's a brain injury (at birth or otherwise) or other disabling things like dyslexia or dispraxia or some other motor or neuron problem.



Absolutely agree but orgasmdenial didn't include other problems and yet you seem to think she did.

I also struggle with dyspraxia. When I write slowly my writing, so I'm told, is quite beautifully but when I have to write quickly it becomes overly large and illegible. For this reason I was always accused of being a lazy shyster. I understand why people think that but I also understand how it feels to be called that.




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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 8:06:25 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I think there are exceptions and you are one of them Nookie. What is very clear to me is, you have excellent communication skills through the written word. Its no surprise to me that you can write one good book after another. I can't think of a time when I've had difficulty understanding your posts but like I said, you are a bit of an exception.

That will be $5 please


LOL!

I think there are times for written and times for spoken.

You are right, many people are not good at written, but I find that the majority of people are not good at spoken communication, either. These groups often overlap by 85% or so (in my experience).

The check is in the mail. *grins*

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 8:07:33 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		If you don't have good grammar, by god, you better have some big tits.

And you can quote me.

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 8:24:15 AM   
RedMagic1


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Status: offline 		People who learn English as a second language tend to have better grammar than do native English speakers who only know English. This includes: more accurate use of subjunctive, better matching between singular/plural pronouns and singular/plural noun, more likely to type out full words instead of using text speak, and so on. It's an advantage to "learn from rules" instead of learning from the bad habits of your parents and their friends.

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 8:35:01 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If you don't have good grammar, by god, you better have some big tits.

And you can quote me.


One look at my kittens and you would forgive me ;)

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RE: Does grammar matter to you? - 11/29/2014 8:39:52 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

People who learn English as a second language tend to have better grammar than do native English speakers who only know English. This includes: more accurate use of subjunctive, better matching between singular/plural pronouns and singular/plural noun, more likely to type out full words instead of using text speak, and so on. It's an advantage to "learn from rules" instead of learning from the bad habits of your parents and their friends.


It depends if its written or verbal.

Because I have both English and French heritage I'm bilingual. I learnt all my French from relatives apart from a few years in a French school. English school children are taught correct Parisian French and when they come to France they don't understand what people are saying because the French generally don't speak properly like they do


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