RE: Suicide.

RE: Suicide. (Full Version)

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MasterVenom13 -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 1:44:49 PM)
At the risk of offending people I have always felt that suicide is a act of cowardice. Mind you I do find it a sad and terrible act in college a boy who lived in my dorm killed himself on break. I remember seeing his roomate devastated I just can't understand how a person could put their loved ones through that.

NorthernGent -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 2:06:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterVenom13 At the risk of offending people I have always felt that suicide is a act of cowardice. I don't find your comment offensive, but I do think that anyone who can't emphasise with someone in a very bad situation should probably think about what it means to be a human being: I'd like to think the answer would be being able to sincerely hold a modicum of compassion. From a rational perspective, I'd imagine that everyone on this board has displayed cowardice, at least what is generally termed to be cowardice, at some point in their lives; in fact, I would guarantee not imagine it. You have to have a heart, because the rest of it doesn't really matter that much; it's just the trimmings. There's nothing weak in that; there's nothing cowardly in that.

MasterVenom13 -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 2:42:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: MasterVenom13 At the risk of offending people I have always felt that suicide is a act of cowardice. I don't find your comment offensive, but I do think that anyone who can't emphasise with someone in a very bad situation should probably think about what it means to be a human being: I'd like to think the answer would be being able to sincerely hold a modicum of compassion. From a rational perspective, I'd imagine that everyone on this board has displayed cowardice, at least what is generally termed to be cowardice, at some point in their lives; in fact, I would guarantee not imagine it. You have to have a heart, because the rest of it doesn't really matter that much; it's just the trimmings. There's nothing weak in that; there's nothing cowardly in that. I suppose cowardice is a bit strong of a word but I just cant understand how a person can leave behind their loved ones yes I understand and can emphasize with being in a horrible situation but to cause your loved ones that level of pain is truly selfish because no matter how deep of a hole you may be in you can always claw your way out.

camille65 -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 3:34:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterVenom13 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: MasterVenom13 At the risk of offending people I have always felt that suicide is a act of cowardice. I don't find your comment offensive, but I do think that anyone who can't emphasise with someone in a very bad situation should probably think about what it means to be a human being: I'd like to think the answer would be being able to sincerely hold a modicum of compassion. From a rational perspective, I'd imagine that everyone on this board has displayed cowardice, at least what is generally termed to be cowardice, at some point in their lives; in fact, I would guarantee not imagine it. You have to have a heart, because the rest of it doesn't really matter that much; it's just the trimmings. There's nothing weak in that; there's nothing cowardly in that. I suppose cowardice is a bit strong of a word but I just cant understand how a person can leave behind their loved ones yes I understand and can emphasize with being in a horrible situation but to cause your loved ones that level of pain is truly selfish because no matter how deep of a hole you may be in you can always claw your way out. I have an exit kit. I've had it for nearly a decade. Right now I'm 49, I've lived with chronic and often debilitating pain since 1990. That is almost 25 years, and I've likely another 20 years ahead of me at the very least. Quite honestly the very idea of another 2 decades like the past 2 decades is rather horrifying. The sheer amount of inner strength it requires to just continue another day has to be finite, at some point I will run out of will. At some point I will be able to say it has been enough, the run was good but I'm choosing where my finish line is. I don't think that finish line is anytime close but one day it will be. My friends will understand, hopefully my family will as well.

xgender -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 4:14:17 PM)
Those who kill themselves are often dealing with blinding pain, usually emotional. Their view becomes myopic to the extreme and death is the only thing they can see. MasterVenom13 I don't find your comments offensive, but they do show a lack of perspective. And TBH, I hope it's a perspective you never completely gain...

dcnovice -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 4:35:02 PM)
FR "[T]he pain of severe depression is quite unimaginable to those who have not suffered it, and it kills in many instances because its anguish can no longer be borne, The prevention of suicides will continue to be hindered until there is a general awareness of the nature of this pain. Through the healing process of time--and through medical interventions or hospitalization in many cases--most people survive depression, which may be its only blessing; but to the tragic legion who are compelled to destroy themselves there should be no more reproof attached than to the victims of terminal cancer." William Styron, Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness

YouName -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 5:29:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kaliko quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB This morning I witnessed a suicide. I was walking my dog along the river bank when I saw a man jump off a very high bridge. My first reaction was to call the emergency services. I was unaware that there were already police on the bridge trying to talk him out of it. The bridge is a popular suicide spot and as far as I know, nobody has survived the jump. Many years ago I was the victim of suicide from someone very close to me. I understand this awful curb of emotions those left behind go through. I know what his family are about to go through, if indeed he has a family. I know a lot of people think that suicide is a selfish act or a cowards way out. Whilst I fully understand the anger, the victims of losing someone to suicide go through, I can't help but think, how bad things must be before someone can end it all, especially in such a violent and certain way? I understand cries for help but a violent end isn't a cry for help. I think a person has to be very brave to end it all in such a way. This morning there were suddenly a lot of people on the bank of the river and in the river. Peoples immediate reactions were "how terrible" and "how sad" and not the reactions we normally hear regarding a suicide. I'm interested to know how others feel regarding this topic? do you believe they are selfish/cowards or do you think that perhaps they were just so desperate and couldn't see a tomorrow? I have a different reaction. I feel disgust at people who suddenly develop compassion toward a person after they commit suicide. Those people on the river bank who shake their heads and say "how terrible" and "how sad" are symbolic of those in and around his life who probably never even considered reaching out to him unless it suited them to do so. The selfishness of human beings just never ceases to amaze me, unfortunately. There are so few that actually change themselves for the good of others and nothing more. Ah, but I digress. (It's just a really sore point with me. "Oh, such a shame" is something I hear so often from people who, a week ago when someone wasn't tragic news, they couldn't give a fuck about.) As for the person who committed suicide? I feel one has to be so terribly desperate and lost to consider such an act. There must be such a tragic loss of hope. Even in my worst days (and there have been some bad ones) I always felt that ultimately, there was something to be gained from the experience; that there was some sort of good that could come from it even if there was no way to see it right then. I can't imagine what it must be like to not have that sense of hope. Or, I suppose, to have a mental illness that could cloud that hope. I wrote a lil something but this is a kinder approach to the issue than I had in mind and that's better. These things shouldn't be discussed openly with any degree of verity unless one is a fool and mistakes it for such or a most sensible individual and even then brevity is better. All I can add is that people should try and exhaust options of both giving and taking before deciding on ending life.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 5:30:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB This morning I witnessed a suicide. I was walking my dog along the river bank when I saw a man jump off a very high bridge. My first reaction was to call the emergency services. I was unaware that there were already police on the bridge trying to talk him out of it. The bridge is a popular suicide spot and as far as I know, nobody has survived the jump. Many years ago I was the victim of suicide from someone very close to me. I understand this awful curb of emotions those left behind go through. I know what his family are about to go through, if indeed he has a family. I know a lot of people think that suicide is a selfish act or a cowards way out. Whilst I fully understand the anger, the victims of losing someone to suicide go through, I can't help but think, how bad things must be before someone can end it all, especially in such a violent and certain way? I understand cries for help but a violent end isn't a cry for help. I think a person has to be very brave to end it all in such a way. This morning there were suddenly a lot of people on the bank of the river and in the river. Peoples immediate reactions were "how terrible" and "how sad" and not the reactions we normally hear regarding a suicide. I'm interested to know how others feel regarding this topic? do you believe they are selfish/cowards or do you think that perhaps they were just so desperate and couldn't see a tomorrow? Suicide. A pussy's way out and yet...terrifying....mentally disturbing....something that defies mental acuity. It leaves loved ones angry....unfulfilled...left languishing. Your children (if you have some) are left...doesn't need much more added to that. And your mate, she or he is an adult...everyone expects her or him to adjust....they can't because....you were a pussy. Tell the truth..in some fashion. On the other hand, if you are awash with anguish, at least leave a letter because, if you produced...you owe those you left behind. It's awful. Can't add to that because I've never been there. I don't know. I couldn't possibly add to this.

PeonForHer -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 5:37:30 PM)
quote: Those who think: I am the problem, I cakk myself and the world is a better place. Those who think: You motherfuckers are the problem, I cakk you and my world is a better place. I think there's a certain amount of truth in that, though I'd qualify it from my own experience: To date, a total of six of my friends has committed suicide. The first - I'll call him 'Dave' - took his life about a decade ago. He'd been a housemate as well as a good friend. My feelings about it remained the same for a long, long time: ambiguous. Mostly, I just felt sad, unsurprisingly. But I did also feel anger towards him - especially at his funeral, seeing his mother and thinking, 'Hell, he's ruined her life, that poor woman'. I worked it out that there were two 'Daves' involved: Dave the victim - and Dave the murderer. Somebody had taken my friend's life, and that person, the killer, was Dave himself. He wouldn't have done it if he could see his mother, now, and what it's done to her. In killing yourself, you simultaneously maim lots of other people around you - the very last people you'd want to maim, too. But much later I began to believe that this just isn't how it works for the suicidally-inclined. Of course Dave wouldn't have wanted to hurt his mother - but his head wasn't in a space where he could grasp that. That's one of the many debilities that depression causes. He couldn't feel the love for him coming from his friends and his family, either. He couldn't feel anything, really, except pain. Too much to say on that point; I'll quit while I can. But to get back to your point, Ron: I tried to work out what these six friends had in common, if anything at all. They were all of a certain sort: they tended to get depressed (like me), but they were also angry and occasionally aggressive kinds of people (unlike me). I think they turned their anger inwards at critical moments in each case and began viciously to beat up their own souls. I do think that anger turned outwards rather than inwards is healthier. But I also think it's better not to have it at all. If that's in any way possible to achieve. Which, of course, it may well not be.

TheBanshee -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 5:41:41 PM)
I believe there is a big difference between someone who wishes to "let go" when they are dying already - such as the young bride in Oregon with the brain tumor. Personally I thought she jumped in a little too quickly but I understand not wanting to become invalid and unable to do things. However, I believe in many cases suicide is a big "F" you to those that love the "victim". I think we should stop romanticizing it (sorry Romeo and Juliet, if you had just waited a few more minutes you might have had a happy ending). A friend's husband blew his brains out and their 10th grader came home to find what was left of "Dad". What a guy, huh? Your son will NEVER unsee that and that was your swan song. So who gets to clean up the gunk after the police take their report and the body is removed? When my daughter was a teenager one of her best friends committed suicide. She was upset because she thought her boyfriend cheated on her and killed herself IN FRONT OF HIM. He'll never have a normal relationship again, will he? Even if he did "cheat on her" they were 17 - she probably wouldn't have remembered his last name in a few years had she just not reacted - stupid selfish teenager. I knew her mom and my heart ached for her (and I knew my own daughter was every bit the drama queen as her daughter was - and it could easily have been my own daughter). My daughter had threatened suicide herself. I took her threat seriously but I don't know if that helped or not or that she just matured and grew up into the wonderful woman she is today. I know it could have been her that day (and when the high school called I actually thought it was when I saw the emergency vehicles). My daughter is pained by the loss of her friend. They had a candlelight vigil. I think that's wrong. If someone commits suicide that way their memory should not be honored. They didn't respect their own life enough to actually live it - why should we honor their memory. Life is hard sometimes. Suck it up, make it better, find help. If people care about you reach out to them. If you do it anyway - you don't care about them.

YouName -> RE: Suicide. (11/28/2014 5:58:52 PM)
Anger directed inwards is bad. Love directed inwards is bad. Emotions are meant to be set loose instead of medicated away, ignored or worse bent as spikes into the heart that created them. I guess a bad combination is when you direct your hate outwards but your love inwards, leaving you manic and possibly depressed. I'm mad as hell!

Redhusky -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 1:28:18 AM)
Medication might just delay it. One of my parents friends committed suicide. He had a family, job and so on. In short version life was OK, however he had depression issue. He was in medication, treatments for years. Finally he committed suicide, by the evidence left behind, it seams he didnt plan it to commit suicide on that day, it just happened while going to work. Of course nobody can check what mental state he was on that day, just the physical evidence

DaddySatyr -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 1:35:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheBanshee I believe there is a big difference between someone who wishes to "let go" when they are dying already - such as the young bride in Oregon with the brain tumor. Personally I thought she jumped in a little too quickly but I understand not wanting to become invalid and unable to do things. However, I believe in many cases suicide is a big "F" you to those that love the "victim". I think we should stop romanticizing it (sorry Romeo and Juliet, if you had just waited a few more minutes you might have had a happy ending). A friend's husband blew his brains out and their 10th grader came home to find what was left of "Dad". What a guy, huh? Your son will NEVER unsee that and that was your swan song. So who gets to clean up the gunk after the police take their report and the body is removed? When my daughter was a teenager one of her best friends committed suicide. She was upset because she thought her boyfriend cheated on her and killed herself IN FRONT OF HIM. He'll never have a normal relationship again, will he? Even if he did "cheat on her" they were 17 - she probably wouldn't have remembered his last name in a few years had she just not reacted - stupid selfish teenager. I knew her mom and my heart ached for her (and I knew my own daughter was every bit the drama queen as her daughter was - and it could easily have been my own daughter). My daughter had threatened suicide herself. I took her threat seriously but I don't know if that helped or not or that she just matured and grew up into the wonderful woman she is today. I know it could have been her that day (and when the high school called I actually thought it was when I saw the emergency vehicles). My daughter is pained by the loss of her friend. They had a candlelight vigil. I think that's wrong. If someone commits suicide that way their memory should not be honored. They didn't respect their own life enough to actually live it - why should we honor their memory. Life is hard sometimes. Suck it up, make it better, find help. If people care about you reach out to them. If you do it anyway - you don't care about them. This^, one hundred times. It kind of parallels what I said, early (on a couple of levels) Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

MariaB -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 2:15:47 AM)
I think a candle lit vigil is for the family left behind. If I lost a child to suicide, whilst I may be angry amongst a whole array of emotions, I wouldn't want to witness anger in others towards my child. It would comfort me to know they cared. I just read an article that says suicide is usually an impulsive act. When survivors of violent suicides were interviewed and asked, "when did you decide and how long from your decision did it take to commit the act?" the majority of answers were between 5 and 30 seconds. They also found those survivors to have very impulsive personalities.

xgender -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 2:17:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: TheBanshee I believe there is a big difference between someone who wishes to "let go" when they are dying already - such as the young bride in Oregon with the brain tumor. Personally I thought she jumped in a little too quickly but I understand not wanting to become invalid and unable to do things. However, I believe in many cases suicide is a big "F" you to those that love the "victim". I think we should stop romanticizing it (sorry Romeo and Juliet, if you had just waited a few more minutes you might have had a happy ending). A friend's husband blew his brains out and their 10th grader came home to find what was left of "Dad". What a guy, huh? Your son will NEVER unsee that and that was your swan song. So who gets to clean up the gunk after the police take their report and the body is removed? When my daughter was a teenager one of her best friends committed suicide. She was upset because she thought her boyfriend cheated on her and killed herself IN FRONT OF HIM. He'll never have a normal relationship again, will he? Even if he did "cheat on her" they were 17 - she probably wouldn't have remembered his last name in a few years had she just not reacted - stupid selfish teenager. I knew her mom and my heart ached for her (and I knew my own daughter was every bit the drama queen as her daughter was - and it could easily have been my own daughter). My daughter had threatened suicide herself. I took her threat seriously but I don't know if that helped or not or that she just matured and grew up into the wonderful woman she is today. I know it could have been her that day (and when the high school called I actually thought it was when I saw the emergency vehicles). My daughter is pained by the loss of her friend. They had a candlelight vigil. I think that's wrong. If someone commits suicide that way their memory should not be honored. They didn't respect their own life enough to actually live it - why should we honor their memory. Life is hard sometimes. Suck it up, make it better, find help. If people care about you reach out to them. If you do it anyway - you don't care about them. This^, one hundred times. It kind of parallels what I said, early (on a couple of levels) Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me? There are those who do kill themselves out of anger - it is more often than not - but in most cases this is because it takes the energy of anger to fulfill the wish to die. IOW, when a person is in deep depression , they are often incapable of killing themselves because they are too depressed to physically carry it out. With regard to "sucking it up". Anyone who agrees with this (insensitive) sentiment has NEVER truly been depressed. Period.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 2:54:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xgender There are those who do kill themselves out of anger - it is more often than not - but in most cases this is because it takes the energy of anger to fulfill the wish to die. IOW, when a person is in deep depression , they are often incapable of killing themselves because they are too depressed to physically carry it out. With regard to "sucking it up". Anyone who agrees with this (insensitive) sentiment has NEVER truly been depressed. Period. You're right, of course. Being diagnosed with a disease that's going to eventually kill me didn't cause any depression, at all. A year later, when my son was killed, that didn't add to it. I keep forgetting that people here, with whom I've had no individual contact, know my life better than I do. How silly of me. Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

xgender -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 3:32:19 AM)
I've been dealing with depression as a consumer and as an advocate for more than 30 years. Suck it up is insensitive - I don't care how you slice it. And if you think it isn't, then I maintain you have not seen the true depths of depression. It is the very nature of clinical depression that one cannot possibly "suck it up". Would you say that to someone who has pneumonia? Cancer? Don't say it someone who is depressed enough to kill themselves or you may find yourself the straw that kills the friend you're trying to help... As to your son, I can't imagine. As to your lot in life, you're not the only one that lives with hell...

DaddySatyr -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 4:05:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xgender I've been dealing with depression as a consumer and as an advocate for more than 30 years. Suck it up is insensitive - I don't care how you slice it. And if you think it isn't, then I maintain you have not seen the true depths of depression. It is the very nature of clinical depression that one cannot possibly "suck it up". Would you say that to someone who has pneumonia? Cancer? Don't say it someone who is depressed enough to kill themselves or you may find yourself the straw that kills the friend you're trying to help... As to your son, I can't imagine. As to your lot in life, you're not the only one that lives with hell... I know you don't care how I slice it. That much is obvious. How fucking dare you tell me (again) about what's going on or not going on in my life. When I realized I was clinically depressed, I sucked it up and sought help. You see; I'm *not* a professional victim. Would I say "Suck it up" to someone who has pneumonia or cancer? Yes. I have, in fact and anyone that has survived cancer for any length of time will tell you that there's a point where they've had to get busy living or get busy dying. They make a decision to suck it up and drive on, in spite of what's going on. I never claimed I was the only one facing the decision that I am facing, I said (If you bothered to go back and read) that if I decided that there was a point past which I was not willing to go, I considered myself to be a coward, also. I will continue a discussion with you, if you like but for crying out loud, stop telling me what I'm thinking, feeling, or what I've lived through. You haven't the foggiest idea. Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

xgender -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 4:38:20 AM)
OK, I won't dare tell you about you as long as you don't dare to call those who kill themselves cowards (and it doesn't matter that you would consider yourself one). And btw, the vast majority of those who kill themselves seek help first. As for being a professional victim - this betrays a prejudice or lack of possible lack of empathy on your part - but who to you is a professional victim? Those who kill themselves? Fwiw, in my 30+ years of advocacy it has been my experience that nearly 100% of the time, those who kill themselves bear burdens far greater then we can imagine. I have seen enduring strength in the face of utter hopelessness. What I'm seeing from you is that you are white (not your fault but an advantage in the USA nonetheless), literate, you're capable of earning living, you own a computer, I imagine you are able to pay your rent, etc. Yeah I'm sure you're life sucks (NOT being facetious here), but from where I sit it could be a lot worse. I deal with people who lives are, some considerably. I've watched over and over the personal hells people experience. Yes, there are times that tough love is appropriate, but in matters of suicidal ideation, "suck it up" is daring someone to kill themselves and that is a losing proposition. PS - You live in a world where help is an option. For many it isn't. Consider that.

MariaB -> RE: Suicide. (11/29/2014 4:44:23 AM)
To a degree it depends where you are from. In the UK, if someone said, "suck it up" to someone who was ill or grieving, it would be highly offensive but then "suck it up" in the UK is something you would tend to use to insult someone you didn't like. Whenever I read that comment on the boards it always makes me wince.

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