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ORIGINAL: Greta75

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ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
Again, the Miss Swan horse shit is pretty old.

Yea, you being unable to answer my questions, and then resorting to ad hominem is pretty lame. I expect more from you frankly.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes




See, here's the thing. Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way, but when I say things, I mean them. No matter who I say them to.

And I took your context. And spoke to the words and substance of what you were saying.

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As I see it, they are pointing out that wanting things and demanding things, no matter how you excuse or justify, are not the same thing.

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Actually, you are more likely to get the Domme relationship, because there are many sub males who like to play into that fantasy.

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ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

I have no more time to waste on you. You have been weighed, measured, and accurately labeled, and as much as it burns your ass that you cannot argue the world into agreeing with you, tuff shit. The only way you are going to find happiness is to know yourself and identify appropriately, but by all means, continue on in your misery, I know I love good episodes of Miss Swan.

"You are watching MadTv"

Jus sayin

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko
...Now, he cares for me and believe me, he gives in incredible and courageous ways. But he does these things for me and with me because he wants to; because ultimately, there is benefit for him. I am serving him.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko
...Now, he cares for me and believe me, he gives in incredible and courageous ways. But he does these things for me and with me because he wants to; because ultimately, there is benefit for him. I am serving him.

^^^^^ This! Says it all ^^^^^

And that is why I am having trouble getting into Greta's PoV (which very much seems to be a do-me sub attitude).

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ORIGINAL: Greta75
Before you agree going into a relationship with anybody, I am just transparent and completely honest of my expectations. This is good, and should not be criticised.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75
Rather than have a sub lie and agree to everything just to hook the dom, and then change later. I am honest 100% upfront, so that the dom can make an educated decision before taking me on.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75
...I will just keep looking for a dom who appreciates my transparency and decides he can deal with it.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

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Actually, you are more likely to get the Domme relationship, because there are many sub males who like to play into that fantasy.

Okay, find me a sub male who wants to lead a fake sub woman okay? And make sure his not allowed to ever touch me with his tongue as well. I'll take him!

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko

As I'm typing this I'm thinking - yes, to do this it does take a significantly deeper level of trust in him than I have had in previous vanilla relationships. I don't always agree with him, but I have learned through experience that he has infinitely more foresight than I do. And I trust him. I don't know if I could have gotten past the "I don't agree with him" stage in a vanilla relationship. There is no deferring. I would have just fought until one of us finally caved, probably for no other reason than I had the power to do so. So maybe it's not that my vanilla relationship couldn't have had as much trust as my current, but that there was no opportunity to have to build that level of trust in the first place. (Maybe?)

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I am serving him. Now, he cares for me and believe me, he gives in incredible and courageous ways. But he does these things for me and with me because he wants to; because ultimately, there is benefit for him. I am serving him.

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I wouldn't call myself submissive if I was expecting him to "give" in the same ways that I do. I expect and I want him to take.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Your take on things, both BDSM and vanilla, appear to be in a very small niche.
Yet you are espousing this PoV as if it were the normal way of things for everyone else.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

Actually, your conclusion totally does not make sense to me, and since you are deliberately misunderstanding everything I am saying

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You can say that I am not a true sub, if I think I should give more than the dominant should give me.

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That's your definition, that a sub should find a dominant who gives more and that is fine. In BDSM, everyone will find whoever make them happy and whatever makes them happy makes me happy.

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You're happy

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Do you realise that Kaliko literally just said that her dom does all those things for her, BECAUSE IT BENEFITS HIM!!

Not because his truly giving unconditionally?

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So we have Nookie who says, only fake subs look for doms who do not give more.

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Seriously, all of you are against me but contradicting each other. At least try to stick to one agenda as a whole together. Otherwise, it gets very confusing for me, as everyone is contradicting each other.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
What we are saying, generally, is that you are portraying yourself as a sub.
But in your comments here, you say you take the lead. That is not a sub attitude - that is dominant attitude whether you like it or not.

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Who is this 'fake sub woman' you speak of??

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And, contrary to your beliefs, a sub (male or female) wouldn't want to be leading.
It would be anathema to their whole mindset. That's why they are sub

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So, when you serve when you'd rather watch TV, it is no different than when he trains you when he would rather be playing golf.

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It's about crafting a life for you to grow and become more than you were without us. It's about giving you everything you need, not to just survive, but thrive. To heal wounds that came from your past.

This is just a scratch on the surface of what dominants take on when they take on a sub. And NOT just female dominants, either.

So, when you say s-types give more, it makes me laugh. Because it suggests that you are exactly what the others suggest. A do-me sub. And explains why all you are experiencing are do-me doms.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

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It's about crafting a life for you to grow and become more than you were without us. It's about giving you everything you need, not to just survive, but thrive. To heal wounds that came from your past.

This is just a scratch on the surface of what dominants take on when they take on a sub. And NOT just female dominants, either.

So, when you say s-types give more, it makes me laugh. Because it suggests that you are exactly what the others suggest. A do-me sub. And explains why all you are experiencing are do-me doms.

You clearly said here I was a fake sub. Not misquoting, it's exactly what you said. You also clearly say that a dominant is about giving his or her sub everything he or she needs.

So you implied here that, I am a "do me" sub, because I don't expect the dominant to give me everything I need.

And then you got the other male doms here who are saying, that, I am demanding for my needs to be fulfilled and that's not very submissive.

So can't win either way. Happy with a relationship where a sub gives more, also fake sub. Want to have my needs, met, also fake sub.

And ET is absolutely wrong if my goal is to get anybody to agree with me. I never expect agreement. Disagreeing does not mean seeking agreement.

We are here in this forum to have a glimpse of other people's point of view and how they rationalise their position. The more I question or counter, the more the other person would further explain how they think and feel. That's all I enjoy. I enjoying all your opinions and feelings. If it's different, it challenges me to think and also either solidify my conviction of what I believe in, or sometimes, I learn something new. That's what this all does for me.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

I don't think that's how it works. If he wants to play golf, his gonna play golf, his not gonna train you.

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Whereas, vanilla men would give up golf for you. Not a dominant man and I don't expect him to. I don't expect vanilla men to, but in my experience, vanilla men tend to really give alot.

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So you implied here that, I am a "do me" sub, because I don't expect the dominant to give me everything I need.

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Did you not read part two, that in the D/S sense, it's balance, because that's what the S type is looking for, that type of dynamic to be the yang to her ying.

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And then you got the other male doms here who are saying, that, I am demanding for my needs to be fulfilled and that's not very submissive.

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So can't win either way. Happy with a relationship where a sub gives more, also fake sub. Want to have my needs, met, also fake sub.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
Let me tell you that the dominants I respect know that caring for a submissive does sometimes mean giving up things we would rather do for things that need to be done.
Or having difficult discussions when we have a headache.
Or doing the dishes when you are ill.

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WOW! Do you see how your worldview put your potential dominant into a very small box? How you are contradicting yourself by saying he will do what you need?

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What if what you need and his golf are at odds? What then? Because if he chooses what you need, he is vanilla, by your argument.

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What the s-type is looking for equals needs, if you are going to claim a balance. That's how the words read to me.

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Demanding is not very submissive behavior. That's true. But again, I've explained their side. You are not addressing that, but instead making up quotes and implications that don't exist.

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I haven't said you are fake.

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I also haven't said that you are a red polka-dotted syphillitic elephant. If I did, would that bother you?

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So, why worry about what anyone has to say in regards to your submission? Unless you are worried that it does apply to you or that the way you come across could be the reason you have not yet found your ideal d-type?

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ORIGINAL:

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I wouldn't call myself submissive if I was expecting him to "give" in the same ways that I do. I expect and I want him to take.

Do you think that maybe giving of himself in all those ways you mentioned, even if he's had a crappy day, or is not feeling 100%, is somehow less than what you give, when your nature is to serve, as his is to dominate?

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

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So, when you serve when you'd rather watch TV, it is no different than when he trains you when he would rather be playing golf.

I don't think that's how it works. If he wants to play golf, his gonna play golf, his not gonna train you.

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko
Now, of course, there are times when he might make the decision that it's in both of your best interests for him to skip golf that day. But that's his decision to make, not an act of submission.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75
Well, I frankly have zero expectations of any dominants to be capable of those things. Honestly. I think they will leave the dishes till I get well, for me to wash them.

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Whereas a dominant may only do it IF you became invalid and unable to do it maybe. That's the difference.

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Not gonna happen. If he told me from day one golf is more important to him than anything, I will respect that nothing touches golf. It's all gonna be pre-negotiated anyway. So there will be misunderstanding on how things will be going forward if we decide to go serious.

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I have addressed that, I said my demands are about transparency about what I need to function in such a relationship. And shouldn't be seen as any problem at all but simply information for evaluation. If they can't fulfill my needs, they move on and find someone else more suitable. And I move on until I find someone suitable. I believe that's how it works, both our needs and expectations of each other should be discussed upfront and transparently. And none of my needs should be seen as demanding at all. It feels almost like, only a dom is entitled to mention his needs but not the sub, during evaluation stage if both are suitable for each other.

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Yes, but to call me a "to do sub", or anyway, however you want to phrase it is implying that I am less of a sub than a sub should be. Which does translate into being accused of being a fake sub.

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I also haven't said that you are a red polka-dotted syphillitic elephant. If I did, would that bother you?

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I've been told that all my life by my parents growing up, so I get upset at everything as it brings me back to how my parents constantly telling what a piece of shit and how worthless I am as a human being.

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By saying I am a "to do sub" is insinuating that I would be again, be the less, inadequate as a human being, completely useless to everybody, as my parents would always remind me that, that that is what I am.

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I agree with this. Now, of course, there are times when he might make the decision that it's in both of your best interests for him to skip golf that day. But that's his decision to make, not an act of submission.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I agree with this. Now, of course, there are times when he might make the decision that it's in both of your best interests for him to skip golf that day. But that's his decision to make, not an act of submission.

Not an act of submission, but still giving. Perhaps more than an s-type may understand on the surface.

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko

Oh, I agree. *smile* I won't go into detail, of course, but I would be about the most selfish woman on the planet if I didn't understand that.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
There is NO WAY to pre-negotiate everything. Period.

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So, I can see that it's all about you and your interpretation.

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LOL! So you are making my point.
YOUR insecurities are related to fat, for example, so my calling you an elephant would be translated into something in your head that you can find offense in.

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And with your offense, you are making more of it in your head than what I said. Do-me simply suggests that you are selfish in your requirements, either through ignorance or something else.
It does not place a value judgment on you as a person. Or on your submissiveness.

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Not an act of submission, but still giving. Perhaps more than an s-type may understand on the surface.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

It's the same as how all of you want to interprete what I am saying.

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But I really have no sexually transmitted diseases before in my life, and yet I still find offense in it. Do you think in my head, I think I have diseases, even though I have always tested negative?

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Of course it place value of me as a person, and on my submissiveness, as a submissive cannot have a selfish bone in her body. And I have interpreted exactly what you are saying, that I am selfish, and how can submission be selfish? You can't possibly submit and be selfish, thus a fake submissive.

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And the whole thing is, I always feel, people who call other people selfish are selfish themselves, because the most genuine giving people would never see anybody as selfish as they aren't looking at how much they can possibly receive from this person as a measurement of worth.

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Selfishness only come into play when you look at someone and decide that, this person cannot give to you, at the level that you require this person to give to you. It's really from an angle of looking at your own needs and totally disregarding the other person's need. Basically, expecting that person to sacrifice their needs in replacement for yours. That's when you start feeling someone is selfish when that person is not willing to do so. I mean, it all boils down to, WHO GIVES, and WHO TAKES! In this case, a person is viewed as selfish by the one who wants to take but cannot inspire that person to give.

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Not an act of submission, but still giving. Perhaps more than an s-type may understand on the surface.

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This is exactly what I mean. A D type would view sacrificing golf as such a big deal, like if a sub got sick and can't wash dishes, and he actually HAD to lift a finger and do it himself, he would again treat it like, OMG, what a big deal, I HAD to GIVE so much.
It's because of that, I don't want a D sacrificing anything for me, unless it's unconditional from his heart and with love, and not disgruntledly.