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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 1:21:38 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Maria B,

Is it a case of being 'badly educated'?



If you really believe that immigration is responsible for the repression of working class Britain and if your reasons for wanting to come out of the EU is because you believe us, the people will have more say, then yes.

quote:


As far as I can tell, there are some disaffected conservatives rallying to the UKIP cause and a significant amount of older people with previous left-wing convictions also buying into UKIP.


We will always have defectors from the back benches. Funnily enough, one of those defectors is called “Mark Reckless” which seems very appropriate under the circumstances). Have you taken a closer look at who these defectors are? They are all über-Thatcherites; the hard right in British politics.

quote:


Seems to be 3 major pulling points with UKIP: immigration, European Union, they're not part of the status quo/establishment.

Do you really have to be 'badly educated' to go along with those three central tenets of UKIP existence?

I don't think so.



Personally I believe Britain is stronger with a multicultural identity. Whilst a cap on immigration and better restrictions for illegal immigration should of come sooner, UKIP openly attack those who come to this country legally, in pursuit of work and opportunity. Interestingly, here in London where multi-cultured boroughs appear to thrive, you seldom hear racial bigotry but whilst visiting family and friends in primarily white towns in the north, deepening racism was shockingly apparent.

There are reasons for staying in or leaving the EU but from where I’m sitting, staying in outweighs leaving: We will no longer have The European Court of Human Rights (the main reason our present government wants to get out) and without it, the British government can breach the rights of British citizens. We would lose free trade and the privileges we presently have in a single market. A lot of British industry would flounder or take their business abroad and we would lose the flexibility of movement.

Do you really believe they are not part of the firm? Lets take a look at their backers, the men who have huge influence on government decisions.
One of its main donors is Stuart Wheeler who previously donated millions to the conservative party
Paul Sykes, a former Tory constituency chairman.
Lord Hesketh, a junior minister under Thatcher and former Tory party treasurer.
Christopher Mills, former backer to Sussex Conservative club.
Several Rothmans and high fliers like Stephen Hill and Crispin Odey, all influential ex Tory backers.






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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 2:19:42 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

If you really believe that immigration is responsible for the repression of working class Britain and if your reasons for wanting to come out of the EU is because you believe us, the people will have more say, then yes.



I'm not quite sure why you've posted this, because I didn't say anything of the sort or anything remotely approaching that opinion. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you're talking in a general sense.

Except, your argument doesn't wash because Tony Benn and assorted left-wing associates argued that very point in the 1970s when they claimed entry into the European Community could only possibly lead to the elites circumventing hard won employee rights.

I'd estimate you wouldn't have Tony Benn and the 1970s Labour Party down as 'badly educated'

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Interestingly, here in London where multi-cultured boroughs appear to thrive, you seldom hear racial bigotry but whilst visiting family and friends in primarily white towns in the north, deepening racism was shockingly apparent.



Monumental gash.

I noticed you mentioned on the other thread that Burnley is a place close to you. Yes, Burnley has problems - but that's nowhere near me. And, so does London as my Sister lived there and I went to university with people from that way on.

You are not seriously telling me that London doesn't have race problems? Put it this way, we don't go round stabbing people because they're black, yet it has happened and does happen in London. Not the North East.

London is a place where there are a lot of foreigners, but get off the beaten track into inner-city and per head they have had far more problems than we have had in the North East.

London virtue of race relations, and the North suffering from 'deepening racism'. Bollocks.



< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/2/2014 2:22:38 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 2:57:22 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
We are taxed up the ass, and no single payer health insurance.

How much further up do you want to be taxed if we're already taxed and aren't being taxed for single payer for everyone?

Why can't a substantial portion of the taxes that I pay go to single payer health care?
Where the hell IS the money going?
I have a lot of issues concerning how/and where our money is spent.
Capitalism at its finest, don't even get me started.
Money for everyone and everything, millions/billions often thrown away, but gosh forbid we have single payer health care.
The current system is failing, but even as it fails, lets not blow the money on health care.
Unbridled capitalism is going to be a major factor in the continuing decline of this country.


1) Let me know when "unbridled capitalism" gets here.
2) Who is calling for "unbridled capitalism" in the first place?
3) Money will have to be added to the revenue side of the ledger if we're going to increase spending by going to single payer.
4) Defense and Social Welfare programs are the two largest categories of spending we have. If you want to talk about reducing the spending in Defense, you better have a clear way to reduce that spending (I think this is a topic that needs discussion in DC). Obviously, we'll never reduce Medicare or SS spending, so that's always going to be a huge category of spending.


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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 3:12:07 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I'll take up the cudgel on this because there are a few points that I feel strongly about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Maria B,

Is it a case of being 'badly educated'?



If you really believe that immigration is responsible for the repression of working class Britain and if your reasons for wanting to come out of the EU is because you believe us, the people will have more say, then yes.

I don't feel it's 'badly educated' at all.
It's more like the same subject taught but with a different slant and agenda.

If what you hear doesn't fit your particular politics, that doesn't make it 'bad' - just different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:


As far as I can tell, there are some disaffected conservatives rallying to the UKIP cause and a significant amount of older people with previous left-wing convictions also buying into UKIP.


We will always have defectors from the back benches. Funnily enough, one of those defectors is called “Mark Reckless” which seems very appropriate under the circumstances). Have you taken a closer look at who these defectors are? They are all über-Thatcherites; the hard right in British politics.

Actually, Mark Reckless left the conservatives because he felt he was unable, as a conscientious MP, to fullfil the promises he made to the local electorate under the current conservative plans and that UKIP fitted the bill better.

If the people that previously backed him as an MP thought he was doing the wrong thing, they wouldn't have followed him when he switched camps.
This should have been a safe conservative seat but Mark won under the UKIP banner with a very comfortable majority.

I went into town and followed all the spiel from all of them in the Guildhall.
Mark made sense, regardless of what colour he was flying.
The conservatives were not delivering, so he changed flags and still won comfortably.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:


Seems to be 3 major pulling points with UKIP: immigration, European Union, they're not part of the status quo/establishment.

Do you really have to be 'badly educated' to go along with those three central tenets of UKIP existence?

I don't think so.



Personally I believe Britain is stronger with a multicultural identity. Whilst a cap on immigration and better restrictions for illegal immigration should of come sooner, UKIP openly attack those who come to this country legally, in pursuit of work and opportunity.

I disagree.
Whilst it would be true if the immigrants respected our laws and way of life - but the majority don't.
The things that make up our "British" way of life are being eroded rapidly by the immigrants.
I do not want to be 'European', I want to stay British.

If you want to be European - move to Europe.

UKIP are not attacking immigrants who come here legally - just those that don't want to work and are a drain on UK resources.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Interestingly, here in London where multi-cultured boroughs appear to thrive, you seldom hear racial bigotry but whilst visiting family and friends in primarily white towns in the north, deepening racism was shockingly apparent.

If you didn't witness racial bigotry in your part of London then you must be walking around with eyes and ears closed.
It is happening everywhere, inside London and elsewhere.
And why is it happening??
Because too many immigrants are not respecting the British way of life.
They are creating mini-states within towns and cities of where they are from and not integrating.
And yes, I see that as a bad thing for everyone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
There are reasons for staying in or leaving the EU but from where I’m sitting, staying in outweighs leaving:

I don't.
I witnessed what it was like before we joined, and afterwards.
It worked for about 15-20 years then went downhill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
We will no longer have The European Court of Human Rights (the main reason our present government wants to get out) and without it, the British government can breach the rights of British citizens.

Have you not heard??
Cockroach wants something similar in our constitution but without the interfering bits from Brussels.

I'll give you an example -
A terrorist in the UK couldn't be deported because Brussels said he had a right to live here (because he had a cat a girlfriend). And us Brits, like we do, played it by the book, and he's still here living in the UK.
The French found three terrorists. One was shot at his flat resisting police. The other two were on a plane and out of the country by the following morning.
Did the French follow the EU rules?? Like fuck did they!!!
They deported the others because 'they were a threat to France and its people'.
Yet we couldn't deport ours?? Because we stuck to the EU rules and the Court of Human Rights.
The French didn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
We would lose free trade and the privileges we presently have in a single market. A lot of British industry would flounder or take their business abroad and we would lose the flexibility of movement.

We had free trade agreements across Europe before we joined the EU.
We can have them again - without the stupidity of Brussels.
British industry will still carry on trading.
And, we will have the advantage of negotiating preferential trading agreements with our commonwealth nations that Brussels has outlawed as protectionism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Do you really believe they are not part of the firm? Lets take a look at their backers, the men who have huge influence on government decisions.
One of its main donors is Stuart Wheeler who previously donated millions to the conservative party
Paul Sykes, a former Tory constituency chairman.
Lord Hesketh, a junior minister under Thatcher and former Tory party treasurer.
Christopher Mills, former backer to Sussex Conservative club.
Several Rothmans and high fliers like Stephen Hill and Crispin Odey, all influential ex Tory backers.

And the reason they now back UKIP and not the conservative party??
Because the Cons are not delivering on their promises!!


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/2/2014 3:14:08 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 3:27:32 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Whilst it would be true if the immigrants respected our laws and way of life - but the majority don't.
The things that make up our "British" way of life are being eroded rapidly by the immigrants.


Oh sweet Jesus ....

You see, there's no way I could support that sort of bollocks, FD. It's wrong on too many levels for me even to bother to start. But the fact that you buy into this sort of thing makes me suspect that Kipper politicians and their supporters want it too. There's no chance in a million years that they'd get my vote. You've helped to reaffirm that.

As a matter of interest, what about Farage's German born wife? Do you want to see her hoofed out of the country because she likely doesn't respect our laws and way of life and because she's helping to dilute our "British" values? And how far do you want to go back in history - cf, 'Farage' obviously not being a traditional British surname?

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 3:43:11 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Whilst it would be true if the immigrants respected our laws and way of life - but the majority don't.
The things that make up our "British" way of life are being eroded rapidly by the immigrants.


Oh sweet Jesus ....

You see, there's no way I could support that sort of bollocks, FD. It's wrong on too many levels for me even to bother to start. But the fact that you buy into this sort of thing makes me suspect that Kipper politicians and their supporters want it too. There's no chance in a million years that they'd get my vote. You've helped to reaffirm that.

As a matter of interest, what about Farage's German born wife? Do you want to see her hoofed out of the country because she likely doesn't respect our laws and way of life and because she's helping to dilute our "British" values? And how far do you want to go back in history - cf, 'Farage' obviously not being a traditional British surname?



Didn't know his wife is German.

So, just looked it up.

Apparently, she is also his secretary. Paid out of EU funds. £30k for a typing a few e-mails and making a cup of tea.

These people, man.


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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 3:47:06 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


Except, your argument doesn't wash because Tony Benn and assorted left-wing associates argued that very point in the 1970s when they claimed entry into the European Community could only possibly lead to the elites circumventing hard won employee rights


Powell was educated and so of course was Benn. But UKIP - no, rather less so. Alan Sked, who set up the party but left it because it was turning into the closet-goose steppers' party of today, himself described Farage as "thick". This is quite a statement, given that Farage is not just the UKIP leader, but pretty much the party's only real 'face'. Without him, it's difficult to imagine UKIP's fortunes continuing.

As for the education of UKIP's supporters:

"Demographically, UKIP voters attract men slightly more than women – and the party draws its support disproportionately from older people with fewer qualifications. Whereas 46% of all voters are over 50, and 38% under 40, the figures for UKIP are 71% and 15% respectively. And just 13% of UKIP supporters have university degrees – half the national average (though this partly reflects the age profile: older people generally were less likely to attend university when they were young)."

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 3:47:49 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Whilst it would be true if the immigrants respected our laws and way of life - but the majority don't.
The things that make up our "British" way of life are being eroded rapidly by the immigrants.


Oh sweet Jesus ....

You see, there's no way I could support that sort of bollocks, FD. It's wrong on too many levels for me even to bother to start. But the fact that you buy into this sort of thing makes me suspect that Kipper politicians and their supporters want it too. There's no chance in a million years that they'd get my vote. You've helped to reaffirm that.

As a matter of interest, what about Farage's German born wife? Do you want to see her hoofed out of the country because she likely doesn't respect our laws and way of life and because she's helping to dilute our "British" values? And how far do you want to go back in history - cf, 'Farage' obviously not being a traditional British surname?

I could agree with you Peon if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes and witnessed it everywhere I've lived over that last 15 years or so.
I have lived in a predominantly white area.
I've lived in areas where Pakistanis and Indians were the monopoly of the area and my kids went to school where there were 6 kids out of over 1,000 pupils.

I don't listen to the bullshit and rhetoric of the politicians - they are all out to line their own pockets.
But.... I will go with what fits closest to what I've lived with, what I've put up with, and what I'd like to see happen for the future.
That happens to be UKIP at the moment.

I used to be Labour; probably following what my father followed in my early years.
When Maggie got in, it enabled me to buy my first house and start my own business.
For that I am grateful for.
The Common Market was a good thing for us in those early years. Not so much these days.
I sort of floated for the last 15-20 years with no particular affiliation to any colour.
But what I have seen is our educational standards plummet and our 'British-ness' being overwhelmed.
I don't like what I see these days.
Both the conservatives and Labour don't really fit my politics and the Lib Dems are crap.
The Greens I could understand but their ideology looks to make my life too expensive.
Whilst I don't agree with all of UKIP's tenet, they are the best fit for me right now.


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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 3:55:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

These people, man.


Indeed. This is the party that, on the one hand, stands as the white knight against the corrupt political class, and on the other appoints Neil Hamilton - the disgraced Tory MP who was at the centre of the 'cash for questions' affair in the 1990s - as deputy chairman. I mean, of all the nauseating little shits to have slithered into British politics in the last few decades, this is one of the worst. It's actually quite difficult for me, off hand, to think of a better example of a politician who absolutely doesn't give a swivelling rat's arse about the 'ordinary voter'.


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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 4:17:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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As I said, there's too much that I could say even to get started. But this one point, I do want to pick up on:

quote:

.... our 'British-ness' being overwhelmed.


What *exactly* does that mean? Can you give me *concrete examples* and *show how they can make our lives worse*? I mean, I get this sort of thing from nutty old relations of mine, and whenever I ask them to put this notion into anything like real-life terms, they waffle about 'Ah, all the little things' - thereby kind of saying that they're unimportant things - before just changing the subject. It makes fuck all difference to my life that I see people in turbans in my street, FD. I don't care if the bloke running the local grocer's speaks in an odd accent. It's the merest, most minor hassle if I can't get fish and chips and all that's on offer is curry or Chinese. These things just *do not matter*.

Now, i could sort of see the point if you were talking about the major influence and re-shaping of our culture by, say, that of the USA. We're fed a constant diet of American language, American films, American music, American food ... etc, etc, etc. Our kids, especially, lap it up. We have 'gangstas' who spell the word that way and who talk about 'the Feds' (which *really* makes me cringe, I can tell you) rather than 'the police'. They ape American expressions and buy American-looking clothes and music. Yet, those who bang on most about this notion of 'our culture being swamped' never, ever say the first word about *American* culture swamping our own.

I don't get why the idea of 'our culture being swamped' has actually got anything to do with immigrants at all. There are very few American immigrants here, yet US culture has had *far* more of an impact on our own than that of any other country, in modern times.

You see what I mean, FD? I can't see one frigging iota of sense in your line of thinking. It's not that I've bought into 'political correctness' wholesale. It's just that the whole line that you seem to want to join in in purveying makes no real sense to me. It's like whenever I hear such a line, and ask about it, I get side-stepped, called a lefty-liberal or whatever ... and that's the end of it.

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 4:18:29 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


Is our health care system perfect? No, far from it, but the reasoning and ideology behind it is totally correct. Care for all of our citizens.


Now you've gone and done it. effete Britishness ...freeloaders getting ill deliberately ...socialism ... totalitarianism ... Marx and Stalin working their evil influence ... apple pie banned ... end of freedom as we know it ... [etc.]

My bad, I failed to treat our flag with due reverence and respect the other day too....



ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I don't know any prices for care in the UK

....then stop slagging it off.

You are selfish. you would rather see people die than see people live and know that some other people scammed some money from you.

No system is perfect but the only right place to start from is to do as much good as you can.

I don't want to live in a society run by people like you.

It is not all about money

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 4:37:14 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Whilst it would be true if the immigrants respected our laws and way of life - but the majority don't.
The things that make up our "British" way of life are being eroded rapidly by the immigrants.


Oh sweet Jesus ....

You see, there's no way I could support that sort of bollocks, FD. It's wrong on too many levels for me even to bother to start. But the fact that you buy into this sort of thing makes me suspect that Kipper politicians and their supporters want it too. There's no chance in a million years that they'd get my vote. You've helped to reaffirm that.

As a matter of interest, what about Farage's German born wife? Do you want to see her hoofed out of the country because she likely doesn't respect our laws and way of life and because she's helping to dilute our "British" values? And how far do you want to go back in history - cf, 'Farage' obviously not being a traditional British surname?



+1 I am afraid. Peon has summed it up quite succintly

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 4:42:24 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
A and E would what you would call the ER...... Accident and Emergency.


Thanks for the clarification. EMTALA is Federal Law requiring a hospital to treat anyone who walks in regardless of ability to pay, or stabilize and transport if they lack proper facilities to treat. It doesn't equate to the NHS because it isn't a way to pay for health care, but it does allow equal access, regardless of ability to pay.

quote:

Sadly for me, I do indeed read Sanitys posts. Being held in a police cell isnt exactly jail, not by a long way, hence my post. That said, convicts get the same treatment as anyone else in jail.


What is the difference between being held in a police cell and jail (asking for informational purposes as we, generally, use the two interchangeably)?



Surely you have holding cells in your police stations. They are certainly not as grim as the local jail, at least over here. The point was this young woman was held in a safe place due to fears over her mental health. Granted it isnt as good as a bed in a mental hospital, and she could have walked from there whenever che wished if she wasnt sectioned (Deemed mentally ill) BUT she was kept in a safe and secure place until suitable accomadation could be found.

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 4:49:51 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Holding cells in police stations are quite comfy. I stayed in one once. Long story.

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 4:50:22 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The human reality, Lucy, is that health care costs too fucking much! That's the whole fucking point!
Why do you need health insurance?

Mainly due to rip off pricing from the health companies and big pharmacuticals. THAT, is the whole fucking point !


You need health insurance from rip off pricing from health companies and pharmaceuticals? In other words, you need health insurance so you can pay for health care that costs too fucking much, which means we agree on the same fucking point!

I don't know any prices for care in the UK (you do treat foreigners at no point of use cost too, right?). I did have a friend with American insurance living in Germany. His experience with the German system's costing (he had to pay up front and get reimbursed from his insurance company) demonstrates that if our prices were the same as theirs, many people wouldn't even need insurance to pay for care, and that insurance would be a helluva lot less expensive for those that did.

Obamacare is vernacular for the ACA, the Affordable Care Act. As such, it's title is a complete lie. It should have been coined the "Shifting of Costs of Insurance" Act, because that's what it does. "RomneyCare" has run into issues because it doesn't address costs, either.

KFF has a table of health care spending per capita broken down by State.
    Location Health Spending per Capita
    1. District of Columbia $10,349
    2. Massachusetts $9,278
    3. Alaska $9,128
    4. Connecticut $8,654
    5. Maine $8,521
    6. Delaware $8,480
    7. New York $8,341
    8. Rhode Island $8,309
    9. New Hampshire $7,839
    10. North Dakota $7,749
    11. Pennsylvania $7,730
    12. West Virginia $7,667
    13. Vermont $7,635
    14. New Jersey $7,583
    15. Maryland $7,492
    16. Minnesota $7,409
    17. Wisconsin $7,233
    18. Florida $7,156
    19. Ohio $7,076
    20. South Dakota $7,056
    21. Nebraska $7,048
    22. Wyoming $7,040
    23. Missouri $6,967
    24. Iowa $6,921
    25. Hawaii $6,856
    United States $6,815
    26. Louisiana $6,795
    27. Washington $6,782
    28. Kansas $6,782
    29. Illinois $6,756
    30. Indiana $6,666
    31. New Mexico $6,651
    32. Montana $6,640
    33. Michigan $6,618
    34. Kentucky $6,596
    35. Oregon $6,580
    36. Mississippi $6,571
    37. Oklahoma $6,532
    38. North Carolina $6,444
    39. Tennessee $6,411
    40. South Carolina $6,323
    41. Virginia $6,286
    42. Alabama $6,272
    43. California $6,238
    44. Arkansas $6,167
    45. Colorado $5,994
    46. Texas $5,924
    47. Nevada $5,735
    48. Idaho $5,658
    49. Georgia $5,467
    50. Arizona $5,434
    51. Utah $5,031


District of Columbia (not, technically, a State) is the highest, with Massachusetts being second. I'm not sure why Obamacare was going to be such a force to making care affordable, when Romneycare (what Obamacare was touted as being based on) wasn't such a force in making care affordable.


We hardly agree DS, since the US spend a bigger proportion on health than the UK.

Tourists should pay for health care but doctors usually treat people for free. Inside the EU each country can claim costs back from the patients own country. I am not sure how well that works in practice. One big problem we have is outsiders flying here knowing they will need, and get, treatment from the NHS. usually free with few questions asked. that said, health tourism isnt exaclty a large slice from the NHS budget, but it is still a slice.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 5:00:46 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
A and E would what you would call the ER...... Accident and Emergency.

Thanks for the clarification. EMTALA is Federal Law requiring a hospital to treat anyone who walks in regardless of ability to pay, or stabilize and transport if they lack proper facilities to treat. It doesn't equate to the NHS because it isn't a way to pay for health care, but it does allow equal access, regardless of ability to pay.
quote:

Sadly for me, I do indeed read Sanitys posts. Being held in a police cell isnt exactly jail, not by a long way, hence my post. That said, convicts get the same treatment as anyone else in jail.

What is the difference between being held in a police cell and jail (asking for informational purposes as we, generally, use the two interchangeably)?

Surely you have holding cells in your police stations. They are certainly not as grim as the local jail, at least over here. The point was this young woman was held in a safe place due to fears over her mental health. Granted it isnt as good as a bed in a mental hospital, and she could have walked from there whenever che wished if she wasnt sectioned (Deemed mentally ill) BUT she was kept in a safe and secure place until suitable accomadation could be found.


Thanks. I know we have "holding cells" at our jails, but I honestly have no idea how, or if, they differ from a jail cell. I haven't been to that part of a jail at any point in my life, so I truly don't know.


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(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 5:07:12 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
We hardly agree DS, since the US spend a bigger proportion on health than the UK.


That doesn't matter, and wasn't what we agreed on.

You say that insurance is necessary to pay for "rip off pricing." While we may not necessarily agree on it being "rip off pricing," or, perhaps, at what point in the procurement chain the rip off pricing exists, we certainly do agree that the cost of care in the US pretty much requires insurance to afford.

And, oddly enough, I started a thread about the cost of medical care in the US looking at that point. Neat, eh?

Now, if medical care prices were lower (as in "not 'rip off pricing'"), wouldn't paying for health care out of pocket be possible for more people? If medical care prices were lower, do you think insurance would cost less? If medical care prices were lower, wouldn't it make insurance more affordable for everyone?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 5:12:22 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
We hardly agree DS, since the US spend a bigger proportion on health than the UK.


That doesn't matter, and wasn't what we agreed on.

You say that insurance is necessary to pay for "rip off pricing." While we may not necessarily agree on it being "rip off pricing," or, perhaps, at what point in the procurement chain the rip off pricing exists, we certainly do agree that the cost of care in the US pretty much requires insurance to afford.

And, oddly enough, I started a thread about the cost of medical care in the US looking at that point. Neat, eh?

Now, if medical care prices were lower (as in "not 'rip off pricing'"), wouldn't paying for health care out of pocket be possible for more people? If medical care prices were lower, do you think insurance would cost less? If medical care prices were lower, wouldn't it make insurance more affordable for everyone?


I have never said anyoung about insurance being necessary. I hate the bastards that introduced what should be a free. or at least "at cost" service.

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/2/2014 5:32:50 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer



As I said, there's too much that I could say even to get started. But this one point, I do want to pick up on:

quote:

.... our 'British-ness' being overwhelmed.


What *exactly* does that mean? Can you give me *concrete examples* and *show how they can make our lives worse*? I mean, I get this sort of thing from nutty old relations of mine, and whenever I ask them to put this notion into anything like real-life terms, they waffle about 'Ah, all the little things' - thereby kind of saying that they're unimportant things - before just changing the subject. It makes fuck all difference to my life that I see people in turbans in my street, FD. I don't care if the bloke running the local grocer's speaks in an odd accent. It's the merest, most minor hassle if I can't get fish and chips and all that's on offer is curry or Chinese. These things just *do not matter*.

Now, i could sort of see the point if you were talking about the major influence and re-shaping of our culture by, say, that of the USA. We're fed a constant diet of American language, American films, American music, American food ... etc, etc, etc. Our kids, especially, lap it up. We have 'gangstas' who spell the word that way and who talk about 'the Feds' (which *really* makes me cringe, I can tell you) rather than 'the police'. They ape American expressions and buy American-looking clothes and music. Yet, those who bang on most about this notion of 'our culture being swamped' never, ever say the first word about *American* culture swamping our own.

I don't get why the idea of 'our culture being swamped' has actually got anything to do with immigrants at all. There are very few American immigrants here, yet US culture has had *far* more of an impact on our own than that of any other country, in modern times.

You see what I mean, FD? I can't see one frigging iota of sense in your line of thinking. It's not that I've bought into 'political correctness' wholesale. It's just that the whole line that you seem to want to join in in purveying makes no real sense to me. It's like whenever I hear such a line, and ask about it, I get side-stepped, called a lefty-liberal or whatever ... and that's the end of it.

I see what you're saying and I admit it's damned difficult thing to pin down in concrete terms.

All I can do at the moment is to give a few examples and even then, I'm not sure if it conveys what I'm getting at.
Language: fair enough, if they want to speak their own language - at home. They should not expect us Brits to understand them if they refuse to learn English. I will say that the younger Pakistani/Indian generation are doing so, as are European immigrants; but older ones tend not to.
Faiths: we allow them the freedom to follow their faith. But, when it comes to hearing the wailings over outside tannoy systems, I think that is taking the biscuit. You don't hear that stuff from our churches or other places of worship (of any faith).
Clothing: I don't give a flying monkeys if they wear turbans or head scarves in the street. But it has always been polite and good manners to remove head gear when indoors. It has been this way in Britain since the knights. Many (particularly Islamics), refuse to do so and see nothing wrong in it. It's plain and simply rude.

Nuances in culture that typically define what makes us "British" are being eradicated in favour of other cultures.
In one of my links, it mentions 'having a sense of belonging'. This is something a lot of Brits take for granted without thinking about it. For a lot of the immigrants (at least the ones I've come across and/or lived with), that sense of belonging is focused around their own culture and religion rather than with Britain or our monarchy.
The sense/pride of our heritage, our achievements (and our goofs), our politics, our Christian base for religion... etc etc. An awful lot of immigrants just don't have it.

I can't put my finger on it completely, but here are some other insights -
http://www.thedailytouch.com/may/14-ways-to-spot-a-british-person/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britishness

"Britishness, it is often suggested, is ultimately about shared values of tolerance, respect and fair play, a belief in freedom and democracy"
Source: http://www.teachingtimes.com/articles/what-is-britishness-gove-british-values-in-schools.htm


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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:18:58 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


I'm not quite sure why you've posted this, because I didn't say anything of the sort or anything remotely approaching that opinion. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you're talking in a general sense.


I was talking generally.

quote:


Except, your argument doesn't wash because Tony Benn and assorted left-wing associates argued that very point in the 1970s when they claimed entry into the European Community could only possibly lead to the elites circumventing hard won employee rights.

I'd estimate you wouldn't have Tony Benn and the 1970s Labour Party down as 'badly educated'



I'm not sure this reflects on what I said? I've not had a coffee yet though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Interestingly, here in London where multi-cultured boroughs appear to thrive, you seldom hear racial bigotry but whilst visiting family and friends in primarily white towns in the north, deepening racism was shockingly apparent.

Monumental gash.

I noticed you mentioned on the other thread that Burnley is a place close to you. Yes, Burnley has problems - but that's nowhere near me. And, so does London as my Sister lived there and I went to university with people from that way on.

You are not seriously telling me that London doesn't have race problems? Put it this way, we don't go round stabbing people because they're black, yet it has happened and does happen in London. Not the North East.

London is a place where there are a lot of foreigners, but get off the beaten track into inner-city and per head they have had far more problems than we have had in the North East.

London virtue of race relations, and the North suffering from 'deepening racism'. Bollocks.



And there are UKIP seats in London so overall, there is going to be bigotry towards immigrants but its much more behind closed doors.

As you and I both know, London is pretty big and there are plenty of outer boroughs most of us will never visit. The inner London, the very hub of multicultural society, even "The City" is what I'm talking about. White folk who live and work in multi cultural boroughs are the least likely of all of us to view immigration as a huge problem.

I spend a lot of time in the hub of London. I catch a lot of buses and tubes in and around the inner boroughs. I haven't had a single person mouth off to me about immigrants; I haven't seen an eye-roll or a disgruntled look as people of all ethnic backgrounds juggle and push one another for standing room. One week in the north and granted, that was Harrogate had me walking away feeling shell shocked. Whilst I know its always gone on, prior to UKIP, people were more cautious about saying what they thought within a public arena. Whilst it should be okay to publicly discuss immigration, what UKIP are doing is bringing out the anger, frustration and resentment from those that are neither civil or educated enough to discuss it and that really, really bothers me.




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Profile   Post #: 140
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