RE: I HATE Rioting (Full Version)

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starkem -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/2/2014 8:04:00 PM)

Bravo Lucylastic.

I'm sure a lot of people are disheartened by the ensuing rioting. Most people want justice, and they don't want merchandise.

In the 60s, the FBI enlisted black people to be black provocators at peaceful demonstrations to cause the peaceful ambitions and black voices of discontent to cause a mob mentality of unrest to encourage rioting. The cointel pro clandestine operations were willfully conducted by the FBI, under J. edgar Hoover and can be reviewed as part of the freedom of information act realeased in the 80s or 90s. Martin Luther King and other civil rights leaders didn't want civil unrest; they wanted peaceful demonstration and change. Hoover saw such black peaceful organizing for real power and change as a matter of the highest threat to national security and sovereignty as to the status quo of that day.

He publicly stated that King was one of the most dangerous men in America of that day. White and black people of the era hated King just like they dislike the Sharptons of today as being menacing troublemakers. Legitimate black organizations have historically been targeted to dismantle any efforts for Black people to politically organize against social injustice economic empowerment. You have a new generation of demonstrators that have known of these unscrupulous tactics. Then, as now, younger generations will not wait or expect justice. Such anger is a tinderbox of unrest easily manipulated into rioting. Whether it is still the Governments agenda to disrupt the right of black people to organize and develop real political and economic power is not that obvious or deliberate today.

Corporations, however, have a vested interest in being businesses that profit from the poverty in these communities. Could you imagine if black people stopped shopping with these stores and developed their stores and merchants. Corporations are not hiring provacators, but they are ignoring the injustice of police brutality while they profit from those impoverished. Have you ever heard of Black Wall Street and the tragedy incurred for such development?

You may ask why rioting is considered an exercise of power. It's a good question with many historical implications. While you ask your question in earnest, the question projected unto you, with little resistance to the status quo, is why do black people have to wait for justice? The question of economical empowerment so they can police their own communities is not even on the table anymore.

An orthodox Jewish community stormed a New York City precinct when one of their men had been arrested and injured a few officers without one shot fired. That's power that youth understand -not peaceful protest. Shim Fein (sp?) was one of the most violent groups of the IRA for decades responsible for mass deaths; yet, Jerry Rawlins was the mouthpiece for this violent activity with impunity. When they hired the first black fireman in NYC the Irish and Italian formed a mob that hung black men in the streets with impunity. Violence is not new to America nor the rest of the world. It is only hard to fathom that some black people see the disparity in America and throughout the world as intolerable. History has shown that the ballot or the bullet will be everyone's undoing, but difficult choices must be made for change that are unpopular to people who enjoy certain privilege unduly. I only say unduly privileged because they can't expect to ejoy the same rights denied to those troubled by the disparity. I think they called that the "Troubles" in Ireland.

Are we that naive to ask such questions? Are we that innocent to ignore a benign neglect of basic human rights. King's book was entitled, "Why Must Not Wait!" Paraphrase: "People sit on an island of privilege (like the privilege of driving a luxury car and not being harassed by police) with justice blind to a sea of poverty.". I would add things like discrimination, racism, and lack of economic empowerment in communities like Ferguson while people wonder why places like that erupt. We can't be that naive or have we forgotten or ignored the underlying problem. It is not a privilege to know that if you are black, you can possibly be accosted, harassed and killed by the police while other communities don't received such brutality. "Well, we don't commit crimes like rioting.". That is the problem right there. Those type of statements ignore the disturbing patterns that need to be addressed.

Why attack the stores? The stores are a part of the problem. They -the corporate executives- exploit those same communities that they abhore the residents, and they would never live there; yet, take the money with blatant disregard of the disparity. That is not merely a black people problem -look at the 99% Occupy Wall Street movement for example. Shut them down is the rallying cry. These executives and corporations should be the first to say something is wrong -even if not for this one case. If these corporations don't speak out for injustice and see nothing wrong with police patterns of utter brutality and deprivation of civil rights to be apprehended and right to a fair trial then let the police protect them from the riots. Then you begin to see what the outcry is about. The police are not protecting the community. Which was the case being made by people who find these cases of injustice systemic and problematic. How does it feel? Stupid? Okay.....


One last point as to the community at large, as of 2001, your right to peaceful assembly and protest of the government or any entity has been changed. I don't know what implications that holds for anyone but that seems overreaching and the rudimentary steps a police/corporate state and the privileges we enjoy as citizens to question government and the regulating agencies it employs to maintain civility and protect corporations.




starkem -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/2/2014 8:15:28 PM)

Oh wow that is too long. Sorry. Let me crawl back into my humble little cave.

Shortened version: rioting is just as justified as peaceful demonstration. You don't have to join in or agree, but you must be cognizant as an informed citizenry of the underlying cause of such unrest. The majority of the House and Senate Republicans don't want big government involvement (smaller government, less costs) but they ignore causes and their required role as citizens of this edict to be well informed of the endemic prevalent in social justice. History is best qualified to reward such research.




Kirata -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/2/2014 9:12:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: starkem

Shortened version: rioting is just as justified as peaceful demonstration.

[8|]

Seriously, get a grip.

quote:

ORIGINAL: starkem

you must be cognizant as an informed citizenry of the underlying cause of such unrest

The underlying cause of thugs is parents. Case in point:
[image]local://upfiles/235229/FBC1AEA35B3441D1935F683C453FD29B.jpg[/image]

I know my son far too well. He would never do anything like that. He would never provoke anyone to do anything to him and he would never do anything to anybody. ~Lesley McSpadden

K.






starkem -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/2/2014 11:03:10 PM)

Tell that to any other group in their face and see if you are met with any peaceful or understanding demeanor that I have tried to project. This is a hostile world. I will not be sticking my head in the sand or getting any grips if that statement was directed towards me.

I would make further suggestions to you, but apparently that would be futile. I would only suggest that you check your own ancesoory -no matter what group on earth you identify with, violence is not merely parenting, it is normal and not limited to thugs or your misinformation media.

Have a nice day though. I have nothing personally against you. I have an intolerance for misinformation and indoctrination. Surely it is easy to find black men all over the world engaged in thuggery. Historically this country was founded in such thuggery with incarcerated miscremnts to do their dirty work. Don't try to condemn just one form of it if people are not willing to give back the land and the privileges gained from that thuggery. I suggested that people try to address real problems as well as blaming the endemic rather than give me media clips that have no basis in the nobility that a peaceful demonstration suggests -except for a few wayward thugs. Oh you didn't get that part?




starkem -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/2/2014 11:13:03 PM)

We just came out of a war in our country's wherein it was manufactured that certain people were engaged in weapons of mass destruction that presented a threat to our national security. The lie detector determined that was a lie! Ask Maury. Yet, people were killed, raped and compromised of their soveriegnty. Oaops! Sorry about that. That should handle anyone's grip insolvency.

Whether its thugs, terrorist of any other form of malfecanse, America conveniently points to others as the causation with inpunity. Look in the mirror. There's a home depot in everyone's future!




YouName -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 3:44:57 AM)

So if this is what they want, why support it Starkem?
It's a feeble community who couldn't take the lump sum of the social and economic indignation that they have been feeling anymore and picked the first martyr they could find, or that media would find for them. Hopefully this can bring people together, but on the national level it seems to just be dividing the country.


IMO you should have a bit more empathy for the peeps who have their livelihood destroyed in this process of justified rage.
I also think that some of the looting and various destruction of private and public property would not have been tolerated by, let's say, the people during the Troubles that you spoke about in your post.




Musicmystery -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 4:07:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: starkem

Tell that to any other group in their face and see if you are met with any peaceful or understanding demeanor that I have tried to project. This is a hostile world. I will not be sticking my head in the sand or getting any grips if that statement was directed towards me.

I would make further suggestions to you, but apparently that would be futile. I would only suggest that you check your own ancesoory -no matter what group on earth you identify with, violence is not merely parenting, it is normal and not limited to thugs or your misinformation media.

Have a nice day though. I have nothing personally against you. I have an intolerance for misinformation and indoctrination. Surely it is easy to find black men all over the world engaged in thuggery. Historically this country was founded in such thuggery with incarcerated miscremnts to do their dirty work. Don't try to condemn just one form of it if people are not willing to give back the land and the privileges gained from that thuggery. I suggested that people try to address real problems as well as blaming the endemic rather than give me media clips that have no basis in the nobility that a peaceful demonstration suggests -except for a few wayward thugs. Oh you didn't get that part?

Thankfully, both Gandhi and MLK were WAY smarter than you, accomplishing what most thought couldn't be done, peacefully or violently.






DesideriScuri -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 4:48:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: CobaltRose
Something tells me no one is taking my post seriously. But why?

The only people who like rioting, are the rioters...
However rioting doesnt happen in a vacuum.
What amuses me(and I say that with a huge tongue in my cheek) is that people here are more sickened by financial destruction than the reason for the protest.
Things can be replaced, human lives cannot.

I'm not sure anyone on these boards were on the grand jury or at the scene the night of the shooting. Thus, no one here actually knows that Brown didn't attack the officer, or that the officer wasn't warranted in using deadly force. There very well may be an issue between leo's and the blacks in and around the Ferguson area, but torching buildings, rioting and looting isn't really the way to show it off.
The TEA Party held rallies, which were pretty much peaceful. They had people who were pissed off at government. Why didn't they riot?
The OWS held protests, which were pretty much peaceful. They had people who were pissed off at Wall Street (and some at Government). Why didn't they riot?
There are ways to protest. The US Constitution even includes the right to peaceably assemble and petition government. People do not have the right to riot and destroy public or private property. Not only is that a crime, when you're pissed off at law enforcement, destroying private property isn't even aiming your actions at who you're pissed off at! It's like one of my twins hitting the other twin when he's pissed off at his older brother. Makes no damn sense.

I havent said anywhere that rioting is a good thing, have I?
no.., no I havent...


I haven't said anywhere that you said rioting is a good thing, have I?
no.., no I haven't...

You brought up that you were amused by people being "more sickened by the financial destruction than the reason for the protest." Since none of us actually know all the facts of the case, we don't know exactly what happened. But, you linked their rioting to being a protest. Then, I pointed out that there are better ways to protest other than rioting, and pointed out that rioting and causing financial damage to private businesses and property isn't even focusing the ire the rioters are feeling at the cause of their ire.

There are legal ways to protest. The TEA Party protests in DC and the OWS protests all over the place definitely brought light on their complaints, didn't they? I'm not saying the people rioting in Ferguson are wrong for protesting their perceived conditions (I'm not even making a judgment about their perceptions), but I am saying they are wrong to riot and destroy private property.




DesideriScuri -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 5:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: starkem
Shortened version: rioting is just as justified as peaceful demonstration. You don't have to join in or agree, but you must be cognizant as an informed citizenry of the underlying cause of such unrest. The majority of the House and Senate Republicans don't want big government involvement (smaller government, less costs) but they ignore causes and their required role as citizens of this edict to be well informed of the endemic prevalent in social justice. History is best qualified to reward such research.


Violence against private businesses is justified?

http://twitter.com/ksdknews/status/537158701921353728/photo/1

Is Louis Fish and Chicken Grill a massive corporate entity preying on the poor, and working to keep them that way? Is Beauty World? Sam's Meat Market?

How does torching a local car lot, a franchise of a pizza restaurant or pharmacy, or locally owned convenience stores or bars, become "justified" when the anger is over perceived (right or wrong) police discrimination against blacks?

Were the Irish and Italians justified in hanging black men in NY when the first black firefighter was hired? How the fuck does that even compute?




thishereboi -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 5:30:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: starkem

Tell that to any other group in their face and see if you are met with any peaceful or understanding demeanor that I have tried to project. This is a hostile world. I will not be sticking my head in the sand or getting any grips if that statement was directed towards me.

I would make further suggestions to you, but apparently that would be futile. I would only suggest that you check your own ancesoory -no matter what group on earth you identify with, violence is not merely parenting, it is normal and not limited to thugs or your misinformation media.

Have a nice day though. I have nothing personally against you. I have an intolerance for misinformation and indoctrination. Surely it is easy to find black men all over the world engaged in thuggery. Historically this country was founded in such thuggery with incarcerated miscremnts to do their dirty work. Don't try to condemn just one form of it if people are not willing to give back the land and the privileges gained from that thuggery. I suggested that people try to address real problems as well as blaming the endemic rather than give me media clips that have no basis in the nobility that a peaceful demonstration suggests -except for a few wayward thugs. Oh you didn't get that part?



Yes it is easy to find black men who fit his theory as well as plenty of white ones. And the white thugs parents are just as much to blame as the black ones. That is the real problem. The idea that these kids (black and white) seem to think they are special little snowflakes who can bully their way through life without having to deal with the consequences of their actions. But the only time people seem to give a shit is when it's a black kid who gets shot by a white. When a black kid gets shot by another black or a white kid gets shot by anyone, no one seems to think it's worth mentioning. Funny you didn't get that part.




Lucylastic -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 6:32:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
But the only time people seem to give a shit is when it's a black kid who gets shot by a white. When a black kid gets shot by another black or a white kid gets shot by anyone, no one seems to think it's worth mentioning. Funny you didn't get that part.

Of course, anyone who decries the number of shooting deaths per year in the US isnt included in your little diatribe are they??? or would you prefer somone spend their days online pointing out every shooting of every person no matter the colour or who shot who?




Zonie63 -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 7:53:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CobaltRose

Seriously, it solves nothing, is just an excuse to steal stuff and burn stuff down, and makes it harder for the peaceful protesters to have their voices heard. FUCK RIOTERS.

So, anyone who thinks the rioting and burning of local business is somehow justified please tell me why, because in my eyes all its doing is giving the law enforcement more excuses to militarize the police even more. And i am very against the corrupt police system (yes, there are good police, but the system is corrupt, and those good police usually die in the line of duty, willing to sacrifice what the corrupt ones will not).

Of course if they burned down KKK places I wouldnt shed a tear, but they arent doing that.


I suppose there are a number of ways one could look at this.

For one thing, there have been times throughout history when rioting, peasant uprisings, insurrections, and revolutions actually have solved some things, so the notion that "it solves nothing" just doesn't hold water. History has so many examples which prove otherwise.

Militarizing the police will only add fuel to the fire, which would not be particularly wise at this juncture, given the situation with our economy, as well as increased political polarization, along with other domestic and international issues we have to deal with. We're spreading ourselves pretty thin as it is. The last thing we need is any kind of domestic upheaval. That's the main reason why the police shouldn't be taking an aggressive, heavy-handed approach in the first place, which is what led to this confrontation which sparked the rioting.





kdsub -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 8:33:31 AM)

I believe all of this comes down to opposing ways of thinking. In many blacks, at least those still in economic straits, is the feeling that they are discriminated against because of their color. In many whites there is the feeling that blacks today have the same opportunities as they and with affirmative action even better routes to higher education. They think blacks need to stop using the race card every time there is a problem.

The Brown killing was just the catalyst that brought these opposing ways of thinking to a flashpoint. I do believe there is truth in both ways of thinking and it would be great if this mess were to lead to understanding.

The problem as I see it is the path the protesters choose to follow only enforces this way of thinking on both sides and will not bring people together in understanding.

Whites see a petty criminal that attacked a police officer and although tragic got what was coming to him. They cannot see why blacks continue to use this boy as a rallying point when the evidence clearly exonerates the policeman. Many see the protests misplaced and see only the burning and looting and not see the genuine protesting by lawful citizens that feel marginalized in America today.

Blacks, in this case, see a different America than whites. They see poor schools…constant harassment by police…unfair courts…they do not feel they are represented in government or police. All valid points and worth protests. But they could not have chosen worse examples to rally behind, at least as far as whites are concerned. First a boy that did bully a store clerk… then a boy already under house arrest for a gun charge…and already shot a 15 year old…l and then tried to shoot a police officer before being killed. Then they failed to control the criminal element in their protests that burned down Ferguson and looted.

I just do not see continued black protests using these two examples as rallying points succeeding in any meaningful change. I would hope to see leaders in the black community step up and lead these demonstrations away from the Brown killing and direct them to the real problems that need to be addressed. I think if that happens there WILL be real change. Most Americans of all colors want equality and equal opportunity. Many whites just do not see what blacks see and the same for blacks… We do need real conversations without the confrontations of the last few months.

Butch




starkem -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 9:35:14 AM)

Thanks for all the counterpoints. Some of the points are good and make me think. However, I am not rioting and looting. I was giving background to something that has been summarily dismissed as unwarranted. When I speak of corporations, government, privilege and and equal justice in a historical context, I am not equating context to any one event of rioting now. I am, conversely, asking whether it is hypocritical to remain silent in one context and say it is not worth it in another.

Moreover, I, respectfully, decline to let other people define black struggle. It would not be in my best interest to do as such. I don't agree with every black strategy or agenda, but I present a perspective for those genuinely concerned. It would not help Ghandhi to let his dissent be defined by the people who opposed his views. Peace does not mean capitualation. It is good to discuss the different perspectives though. I learn something even in opposition. Hopefully, I have inspired the same -even if you don't agree.




DesideriScuri -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 3:26:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I just do not see continued black protests using these two examples as rallying points succeeding in any meaningful change. I would hope to see leaders in the black community step up and lead these demonstrations away from the Brown killing and direct them to the real problems that need to be addressed. I think if that happens there WILL be real change. Most Americans of all colors want equality and equal opportunity. Many whites just do not see what blacks see and the same for blacks… We do need real conversations without the confrontations of the last few months.
Butch


The problem isn't with the protest, so much as it is with the method of protest. Not everyone there is rioting. Those that are, need to be held accountable for their actions, though.

Rioting or not, protesting or not, we definitely still need to have real conversations about racism in America.




BamaD -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 3:41:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I just do not see continued black protests using these two examples as rallying points succeeding in any meaningful change. I would hope to see leaders in the black community step up and lead these demonstrations away from the Brown killing and direct them to the real problems that need to be addressed. I think if that happens there WILL be real change. Most Americans of all colors want equality and equal opportunity. Many whites just do not see what blacks see and the same for blacks… We do need real conversations without the confrontations of the last few months.
Butch


The problem isn't with the protest, so much as it is with the method of protest. Not everyone there is rioting. Those that are, need to be held accountable for their actions, though.

Rioting or not, protesting or not, we definitely still need to have real conversations about racism in America.


Part of the damage done by the rioting is that it overshadows the peaceful protests.




DesideriScuri -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 3:44:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I just do not see continued black protests using these two examples as rallying points succeeding in any meaningful change. I would hope to see leaders in the black community step up and lead these demonstrations away from the Brown killing and direct them to the real problems that need to be addressed. I think if that happens there WILL be real change. Most Americans of all colors want equality and equal opportunity. Many whites just do not see what blacks see and the same for blacks… We do need real conversations without the confrontations of the last few months.
Butch

The problem isn't with the protest, so much as it is with the method of protest. Not everyone there is rioting. Those that are, need to be held accountable for their actions, though.
Rioting or not, protesting or not, we definitely still need to have real conversations about racism in America.

Part of the damage done by the rioting is that it overshadows the peaceful protests.


Quite true.




YouName -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 3:47:14 PM)

Well, yes and no.

It overshadows them in certain places but in those places they don't matter anyway.
The United States has been scientifically declared an oligarchy in a recent mega study.


In other places demonstrations evolve into riots and then revolutions if demands are not met and are important enough so there are no peaceful demonstrations to overshadow. They are one and the same or one is the vanguard of the other.

Case in point, Belgium, right now. The riots are the vanguard, there is nothing to overshadow, the Unions are taking the country to a standstill. http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g188671-i448-k7919644-Strikes_in_Belgium_November_and_December_2014-Bruges_West_Flanders_Province.html

There are exceptions. Like against supranational organisations which can't be brought down in a single country. Seattle 1999 (meeting shut down, objective partially achieved) and Gothenburg 2001 (failure).




BamaD -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 3:53:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Well, yes and no.

It overshadows them in certain places but in those places they don't matter anyway.
The United States has been scientifically declared an oligarchy in a recent mega study.


In other places demonstrations evolve into riots and then revolutions if demands are not met and are important enough so there are no peaceful demonstrations to overshadow. They are one and the same or one is the vanguard of the other.

There are exceptions. Like against supranational organisations which can't be brought down in a single country. Seattle 1999 (meeting shut down, objective partially achieved) and Gothenburg 2001 (failure).

Actually yes and yes. The coverage of the situation virtually ignores peaceful protests in deference to showing the violence. To say that it isn't that way anywhere that matters is just wrong.




YouName -> RE: I HATE Rioting (12/3/2014 4:01:13 PM)

The coverage is not necessary if the community is coherent, the movement massive and the vanguard organised and directed. Those who don't happen to notice the talk will take notice when the trains stop running in Belgium and the receptions stand empty.

In fact, it might be best to turn off the TV.

Thus it is not overshadowed.


Americans are excellent at this locally. People can really get together locally and there are even elements of direct democracy in town councils. It's a fantastic foundation. Take care of it! : )


The thing with you is you either don't need the riots because you create change anyway at the local level or the riots just like the peaceful marches don't matter much (I'm not saying this, science is saying this).




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