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RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/18/2014 6:25:54 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Agreed the Putin/Republican thing is nuts.

"Over-regulating" is a pretty broad brush. Surely you can see that.

Agreed that over-regulating of everything is a pretty broad brush. However, when you look at the trucking industry, commercial drivers (both of which I deal with a lot in my practice), the health care industry itself when it comes to following the regulations in place to be a Medicare provider, and on and on, it does get to be burdensome.

What exactly do you object to as far as regulating of the trucking industry ?
The limits on how many hours any given trucker can drive ?
If so perhaps you might ask Tracey Morgan....or his driver,no wait,can't ask the driver

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 21

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/18/2014 8:22:15 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Most 'over' regulation is used (purchased) by the existing profiteers to keep out competition and exactly why most of it has nothing to do at all...with the marketplace as it exists.

1) Regardless of who "purchased" the regulation, it's still "over-regulation," and should be done away with.

2) Money is buying both sides of the aisle, and that's our (the American voters') fault for electing people who can be bought.

Most of these regulations are put in by the right as exemplified by many red state and R governors now singing laws to keep out Tesla cars because they are not sold through a dealer network which is obviously irrelevant to the business, designed only to keep out competition.

Most on the right support regulations that are keeping Uber out of Nevada and a few other areas even though Uber satisfies the safety and insurance regulations without having to jump through regulatory hoops at the state level.

Most of the right today supports a complete deregulation of the Internet NOT in support of net-neutrality that will allow a two then three tiered system costing consumers, content providers and any new competition much more money.

Most of the right keep telling the American people that the left and progressives over regulate when they merely support mostly safety, health employee and consumer protections...not protection from competition.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/18/2014 8:24:33 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 22

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 3:07:47 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Most 'over' regulation is used (purchased) by the existing profiteers to keep out competition and exactly why most of it has nothing to do at all...with the marketplace as it exists.

1) Regardless of who "purchased" the regulation, it's still "over-regulation," and should be done away with.
2) Money is buying both sides of the aisle, and that's our (the American voters') fault for electing people who can be bought.

Most of these regulations are put in by the right as exemplified by many red state and R governors now singing laws to keep out Tesla cars because they are not sold through a dealer network which is obviously irrelevant to the business, designed only to keep out competition.
Most on the right support regulations that are keeping Uber out of Nevada and a few other areas even though Uber satisfies the safety and insurance regulations without having to jump through regulatory hoops at the state level.
Most of the right today supports a complete deregulation of the Internet NOT in support of net-neutrality that will allow a two then three tiered system costing consumers, content providers and any new competition much more money.
Most of the right keep telling the American people that the left and progressives over regulate when they merely support mostly safety, health employee and consumer protections...not protection from competition.

Just in case you didn't notice, I didn't point towards either side, even going so far as to claim that both sides (which includes "the right") are bought. Yet, you have to come back and pretend that the reg's the right support are only for business and the reg's the left support are only for consumers and workers.

To paraphrase a wise character: "The blinders are thick in this one."

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 23

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 5:56:13 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Yet, you have to come back and pretend that the reg's the right support are only for business and the reg's the left support are only for consumers and workers.

Well, maybe that's an oversimplification, although that's the general trend for both factions. What I've noticed is that the right generally wants to deregulate from the top down. That is, they want little to no regulation for business and the wealthy, yet they want to over-regulate and tightly control the "little people."

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 24

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 7:18:19 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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I will look if you show me where there is anything systematic even close to Russia.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 25

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 8:26:46 AM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Yet, you have to come back and pretend that the reg's the right support are only for business and the reg's the left support are only for consumers and workers.

Well, maybe that's an oversimplification, although that's the general trend for both factions. What I've noticed is that the right generally wants to deregulate from the top down. That is, they want little to no regulation for business and the wealthy, yet they want to over-regulate and tightly control the "little people."

Like banning soda, salt, toys in Happy Meals, and "affirmative consent"?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 26

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 8:30:52 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
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So regulations *do* you people support?

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 27

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 8:37:44 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I will look if you show me where there is anything systematic even close to Russia.

What do you want from me? I wrote three paragraphs in an earlier post, and all you bothered to address was a single word: "parallels."

I get where you're coming from. You want to believe that the United States is this shining city on the hill, a paragon of virtue, liberty, and justice for all - while Russia is the "evil empire" where commissars eat babies for breakfast. I've had this argument before with many others. Most people might concede that the U.S. is not innocent, but then they would argue that we're still not as bad as Russia, so it's more a matter of moral relativism which one is arguing.

I would suggest that the only real difference is that we've been geographically more fortunate, wealthier, had a higher standard of living, and therefore could afford to be "softer" than Russia. Russia has gone through a lot more turmoil than we have. They have a longer history than we do and see the world quite differently from the average Westerner. It's easy for us to sit here in comfort and claim that we're free of sin and morally superior to the Russians, but I don't really believe that we're in any position to judge them at all. Besides, they're harsher judges of themselves than we could ever be.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 28

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 12:10:51 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So regulations *do* you people support?

No melamine in food is a good one.

Requiring a 10 year old to have a business license to have a lemonade stand is a bad one.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 29

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 12:52:59 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

What do you want from me? I wrote three paragraphs in an earlier post, and all you bothered to address was a single word: "parallels."

What I want from you is something truthful... I will call anyone making false statements just as I expect to be called. Your whole three paragraphs were based on something not true so all three must be wrong unless you show reasonable proof. The word parallel defines your whole statement... it is the reason for your post...why would I not call you on it?

In fact all I asked was for you to show what was parallel between the two as you claimed.You were accusing a free society and its leaders of the same injustices as Putin and Russia today ...without proof of any kind and I find that extraordinarily irresponsible. I didn't call you wrong in your statement just politely asked where the parallel was.

You say I quote..."That's why any high profile prosecution of anyone known to buck up against the establishment has to be taken with a grain of salt, even in this country. "

I am just asking you not if it has happened in our country but where it parallels the systematic practice of prosecution of those bucking the establishment in Russia.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/19/2014 1:02:16 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 30

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/19/2014 5:52:10 PM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
What I want from you is something truthful... I will call anyone making false statements just as I expect to be called. Your whole three paragraphs were based on something not true so all three must be wrong unless you show reasonable proof. The word parallel defines your whole statement... it is the reason for your post...why would I not call you on it?

Sure you can call me on anything you want, that's not the point. But let's back up a bit, shall we? The actual statement under discussion was CD's assertion that people are jailed for "disagreeing with the government." Can you or CD cite a single arrest or imprisonment in Russia or the USSR where the official charge was "disagreeing with the government"?

quote:

In fact all I asked was for you to show what was parallel between the two as you claimed.You were accusing a free society and its leaders of the same injustices as Putin and Russia today ...without proof of any kind and I find that extraordinarily irresponsible. I didn't call you wrong in your statement just politely asked where the parallel was.

During the McCarthy era, there were many people arrested and persecuted, some of whom were charged with "teaching the overthrow of the US government." There's at least one parallel you can sink your teeth into, if you really want to have this discussion. Or we can talk about the lynchings and wrongful prosecutions in our history. That's not what a free society does. And if you want to talk about being truthful, then define "free society" and tell us why the US qualifies as such.

quote:

You say I quote..."That's why any high profile prosecution of anyone known to buck up against the establishment has to be taken with a grain of salt, even in this country. "

I am just asking you not if it has happened in our country but where it parallels the systematic practice of prosecution of those bucking the establishment in Russia.

Butch

It's interesting in the context of our recent discussions on Ferguson and your belief that we should give cops the benefit of the doubt, but you don't want to extend that courtesy to others?

And I don't think saying that one should take government proclamations with a grain of salt actually constitutes a bona fide "accusation." I take what the police say with a grain of salt, I take what judges say with a grain of salt, I take what politicians say with a grain of salt. Anyone who doesn't take what politicians say with a grain of salt would be far more dangerous to a free society than anyone making any accusations.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 12/19/2014 5:55:53 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 31

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 8:09:48 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So regulations *do* you people support?

No melamine in food is a good one.

Requiring a 10 year old to have a business license to have a lemonade stand is a bad one.

That must have been some sort of lemonade stand.
Or some bullshit,way too little to actually do,act of local gov running away with themselves.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 32

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 9:29:49 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Sure you can call me on anything you want,

How did our discussion get adversarial... All you have to do is search for political arrests in Russia and you will find many... no need for me to list them. Do the same search but use the US and you find politicians arrested...see the difference... My only objection to your post was that you were paralleling political arrests today... not thirty or forty years ago.... I will quote myself below:

"In fact all I asked was for you to show what was parallel between the two as you claimed.You were accusing a free society and its leaders of the same injustices as Putin and Russia today."

Make note ...I am asking for proof of a parallel in the US to the systematic political persecution in Russia... TODAY.

Now there may be...but I do not see it and if you have proof of systematic political arrests in the US OK lets have them.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 33

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:13:12 AM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So regulations *do* you people support?

No melamine in food is a good one.

Requiring a 10 year old to have a business license to have a lemonade stand is a bad one.

That must have been some sort of lemonade stand.
Or some bullshit,way too little to actually do,act of local gov running away with themselves.

Here is an article from a couple of years ago:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/

But I am sure that you can Google for lots more stories about shutting down lemonade and cookie stands run by children.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 34

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:26:28 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

I seriously doubt "lots more."

Every so often, some local dickhead gets the idea he has "power." Hardly a government plot, or the categorical evils of purposeful regulation.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 35

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:28:45 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Sure you can call me on anything you want,

How did our discussion get adversarial... All you have to do is search for political arrests in Russia and you will find many... no need for me to list them. Do the same search but use the US and you find politicians arrested...see the difference... My only objection to your post was that you were paralleling political arrests today... not thirty or forty years ago.... I will quote myself below:

"In fact all I asked was for you to show what was parallel between the two as you claimed.You were accusing a free society and its leaders of the same injustices as Putin and Russia today."

Make note ...I am asking for proof of a parallel in the US to the systematic political persecution in Russia... TODAY.

Now there may be...but I do not see it and if you have proof of systematic political arrests in the US OK lets have them.

That wasn't how the discussion started, though. I certainly had no intention of becoming adversarial, but I don't believe that we in America are in a very strong position to take a holier-than-thou viewpoint when talking about Russia. Regarding what our government says and does, I said that I take it with a grain of salt, but you interpreted that remark as an outright "accusation against a free society" and calling on me to prove an accusation I never actually made. That's when it started to become adversarial. Your phrase of "accusing a free society" makes it seem like I've committed some horrible blasphemy that must be called out and atoned for.

It would seem to me that, no matter if it's in Russia or the US, if someone is arrested and prosecuted, then it's up to the government to actually prove something - and even then, I probably won't be entirely convinced that they're telling the truth. Does that require me to prove that they're lying? No, it just means I'm exercising my choice to not believe what the government says, whether it's our own government or the Russian government.

As for "systematic political prosecutions," can that be proven at all? If someone is arrested and prosecuted in the United States, you might argue that they broke some law or did something wrong which would legitimize it and make it seem "non-political." But the Russians could argue the exact same thing. They could say that someone broke the law, that they're a country of laws and people shouldn't resist arrest or cause problems and should just toe the line. The same things that many people here in the US say. Can you prove them wrong?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 36

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:30:17 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So regulations *do* you people support?

No melamine in food is a good one.

Requiring a 10 year old to have a business license to have a lemonade stand is a bad one.

That must have been some sort of lemonade stand.
Or some bullshit,way too little to actually do,act of local gov running away with themselves.

Local, state or federal...it's still the gov't making sure they get their share...even from a 10 yr old.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 37

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:37:28 AM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I seriously doubt "lots more."

Every so often, some local dickhead gets the idea he has "power." Hardly a government plot, or the categorical evils of purposeful regulation.

http://www.lemonadefreedom.com/

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 38

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:55:13 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So regulations *do* you people support?

No melamine in food is a good one.

Requiring a 10 year old to have a business license to have a lemonade stand is a bad one.

That must have been some sort of lemonade stand.
Or some bullshit,way too little to actually do,act of local gov running away with themselves.

Here is an article from a couple of years ago:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/

But I am sure that you can Google for lots more stories about shutting down lemonade and cookie stands run by children.

And why would I do that.
No need for me to look that shit up,I know small people with power can get out of hand....where we disagree is the conclusions you and I draw from these examples.
Your side tends to see these things and declare "see Government doesn't work and we have too much of it"
I,and others on my side of the spectrum,might be more inclined to think bad government doesn't work and we need less of that and more good reasonable accessible governance

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 39

RE: Does this make any difference or.....? - 12/20/2014 10:58:29 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Agreed the Putin/Republican thing is nuts.

"Over-regulating" is a pretty broad brush. Surely you can see that.

Agreed that over-regulating of everything is a pretty broad brush. However, when you look at the trucking industry, commercial drivers (both of which I deal with a lot in my practice), the health care industry itself when it comes to following the regulations in place to be a Medicare provider, and on and on, it does get to be burdensome.

What exactly do you object to as far as regulating of the trucking industry ?
The limits on how many hours any given trucker can drive ?
If so perhaps you might ask Tracey Morgan....or his driver,no wait,can't ask the driver

Actually, I don't have a problem with them regulating the hours a trucker can drive. Nobody belongs behind the wheel of an 18 wheel weapon who is too tired to pay attention to his job...which is driving.

I DO have a problem with the government trying to bring into play the B.M.I. for truckers. Its not the government's job to determine that a trucker's weight negatively affects every trucker's ability to handle his truck...that's a determination in each individual case between the trucker and the doctor examining him.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 40

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