Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/18/2014 4:29:48 AM)

Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/17/us-usa-montana-exchangestudent-idUSKBN0JV2N420141217


(Reuters) - A jury on Wednesday found a Montana homeowner guilty of deliberate homicide in the shooting death of a German high school exchange student who entered his garage in a case that tested the state's version of a "castle doctrine" self-defense law.

Prosecutors painted Markus Kaarma as an armed aggressor who lured a non-violent would-be burglar to his death. Authorities say Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg, was killed in April while "garage hopping" at night in Missoula in a possible search for alcohol.

“We are very happy – long live justice,” the victim's father, Celal Dede, who traveled to Montana with his wife to attend the trial, said after the guilty verdict. The killing had sparked outrage in Germany.

Prosecutors argued during the trial that Kaarma had installed motion detectors and a baby monitor days before the shooting and left a purse filled with cash and other items in the attached garage on the day Dede was killed.

They further contended that when Kaarma left his house to corner Dede in the garage after being alerted to his presence by the monitoring devices, he lost legal protection for his actions under Montana law.

They also cast doubt throughout the trial as to whether Kaarma believed any danger existed, and said that ballistic evidence showed Kaarma had repositioned himself for a final kill shot of an already wounded, weaponless Dede.

Defense lawyers countered that Kaarma acted under a form of the "castle doctrine" of home security to protect his family and that his actions were in line with Montana's self-defense law, which allows deadly force against a home invasion if a person reasonably believes it is necessary to prevent an assault.

Defense attorney Paul Ryan said Montana law did not require Kaarma, a former U.S. Forest Service firefighter, to hide or retreat from an intruder in his attached garage, which Ryan said was considered an "occupied structure."

Judge Ed McLean ordered Kaarma be remanded into custody moments after the verdict was read. Kaarma could face up to 100 years in prison when he is sentenced on Feb. 11.




thishereboi -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/18/2014 5:45:58 AM)

Well it won't bring the kid back but at least there was some justice served.




tj444 -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/18/2014 9:00:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Prosecutors argued during the trial that Kaarma had installed motion detectors and a baby monitor days before the shooting and left a purse filled with cash and other items in the attached garage on the day Dede was killed.

They further contended that when Kaarma left his house to corner Dede in the garage after being alerted to his presence by the monitoring devices, he lost legal protection for his actions under Montana law.

They also cast doubt throughout the trial as to whether Kaarma believed any danger existed, and said that ballistic evidence showed Kaarma had repositioned himself for a final kill shot of an already wounded, weaponless Dede.

I did not know that the shooter shot him again to finish him off.. that clearly (to me) means it was deliberate murder.. There was another case about some guy killing 2 youths in his basement, along the same lines of setting up a trap and hiding in the dark, waiting for them to shoot them to death.. (it almost always seems to be men doing this)




slvemike4u -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/18/2014 6:32:23 PM)

Scumbag....




joether -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 11:09:36 AM)

Its like some idiot placing a trap for a rabbit, except he catches a bald eagle. Not bothering to check things, he inserts a gun into a convenient hole and starts firing away. Afterward, knowing he just killed the wrong target, tries to make up a story in self defense, rather than admit he made a serious set of mistakes. Then when the law enforcement enters the picture, we have a whole section of individuals claiming the bald eagle really was a rabbit, and by the powers of 'Pandora's Box' was a rabbit and magically turned into a bird after being revealed. To the rest of us living in reality, a bald eagle got trapped and killed by an idiot that couldn't identify his target before shooting. An therefore, is guilty!

We had this debate a few months ago. The guy set a trap. He got an unexpected intruder. Rather than calling the police, hunkering down inside the house; the idiot leaves to 'cut off' this person's escape. Not only that, but started firing inside. THEN, repositioned for the kill shot. This guy wanted to be a hero with a gun. Now, he's going to jail for the rest of his life for being a gun nut. He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against.

Justice was served correctly!




BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 11:11:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Its like some idiot placing a trap for a rabbit, except he catches a bald eagle. Not bothering to check things, he inserts a gun into a convenient hole and starts firing away. Afterward, knowing he just killed the wrong target, tries to make up a story in self defense, rather than admit he made a serious set of mistakes. Then when the law enforcement enters the picture, we have a whole section of individuals claiming the bald eagle really was a rabbit, and by the powers of 'Pandora's Box' was a rabbit and magically turned into a bird after being revealed. To the rest of us living in reality, a bald eagle got trapped and killed by an idiot that couldn't identify his target before shooting. An therefore, is guilty!

We had this debate a few months ago. The guy set a trap. He got an unexpected intruder. Rather than calling the police, hunkering down inside the house; the idiot leaves to 'cut off' this person's escape. Not only that, but started firing inside. THEN, repositioned for the kill shot. This guy wanted to be a hero with a gun. Now, he's going to jail for the rest of his life for being a gun nut. He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against.

Justice was served correctly!

No he is going to jail for killing someone. Outside of MA being a "gun nut" is not a crime.




joether -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 11:58:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Its like some idiot placing a trap for a rabbit, except he catches a bald eagle. Not bothering to check things, he inserts a gun into a convenient hole and starts firing away. Afterward, knowing he just killed the wrong target, tries to make up a story in self defense, rather than admit he made a serious set of mistakes. Then when the law enforcement enters the picture, we have a whole section of individuals claiming the bald eagle really was a rabbit, and by the powers of 'Pandora's Box' was a rabbit and magically turned into a bird after being revealed. To the rest of us living in reality, a bald eagle got trapped and killed by an idiot that couldn't identify his target before shooting. An therefore, is guilty!

We had this debate a few months ago. The guy set a trap. He got an unexpected intruder. Rather than calling the police, hunkering down inside the house; the idiot leaves to 'cut off' this person's escape. Not only that, but started firing inside. THEN, repositioned for the kill shot. This guy wanted to be a hero with a gun. Now, he's going to jail for the rest of his life for being a gun nut. He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against.

Justice was served correctly!

No he is going to jail for killing someone. Outside of MA being a "gun nut" is not a crime.


He's going to jail for setting a trap, and gleefully desiring to be a hero. That in all that excitement of his, he failed to check reality and whether his 'trapped intruder' had ability/intent to do harm to him and his family. We argued this in the previous thread, and your side LOST!

He left a 'secured position', to go outside, without backup, or without a clear line of retreat should shit hit the fan. To confront an unknown number of individuals, whose skill and equipment is unknown, and intentions are equally unknown. Tell me, Mr Tactics, does that sound like a sane if not tactically good thing to do? The answer is.....NO!

There is a clear difference between gun owner and gun nut. Gun owners tend to be very rational individuals that understand the nature of firearms, and how to deal with situations that could arise. They would stay in the house, awaiting for help to arrive and THEN, confront the opposition. Gun nuts dont live in reality. They cant handle the idea of needing help, since they have a gun, which will magically protect them from all harm (except for cancer, diseases, 'acts of god' natural encounters, man made disasters, etc. etc.). This guy was a gun nut. He wanted to be a hero, and now he is a criminal.

Notice I don't have a problem with a gun owner defending themselves, their family, and their house, if the intruder actually breached the house itself. The intruder didn't breach, but walked in through an open door, during the dead of night. Who keeps their house unlocked, in the dead of night, when there have been houses being broken into, BamaD? More so, who places a purse full of money and jewelry on a table that could be traced once stolen? This guy trapped the wrong prey and now faces the penalty for being an idiot. Case Closed!




Aylee -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 12:07:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against.

Justice was served correctly!


Wow. NO!

When we take away a person's right of self defense, such as with incarceration, we as a society have a responsibility to protect that individual. Suggesting that being raped is part of justice being served correctly is just NOT okay.




joether -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 1:19:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against.

Justice was served correctly!

Wow. NO!

When we take away a person's right of self defense, such as with incarceration, we as a society have a responsibility to protect that individual. Suggesting that being raped is part of justice being served correctly is just NOT okay.


This person was not defending himself nor his family, when he left the security of the house, to confront the unknown opposition, with unknown skill and unknown equipment, head on, in the dark of night, with no backup nor clear line of retreat. This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?

Why do I have to keep bring this point up, and not one of you, can give a rational, stable, reasonable reply to it? Because that is what landed the guy into prison! This is not a 2nd amendment issue.

What does rape have to do with some gun nut wishing to be a hero, by leaving his door unlocked and open, during which houses are being robbed, to go outside the security of his house, to confront an unknown number of targets, with unknown skill and equipment, without backup, nor a line of retreat, in the dead of night, without a flashlight?







Aylee -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 1:29:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against.

Justice was served correctly!

Wow. NO!

When we take away a person's right of self defense, such as with incarceration, we as a society have a responsibility to protect that individual. Suggesting that being raped is part of justice being served correctly is just NOT okay.


This person was not defending himself nor his family, when he left the security of the house, to confront the unknown opposition, with unknown skill and unknown equipment, head on, in the dark of night, with no backup nor clear line of retreat. This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?

Why do I have to keep bring this point up, and not one of you, can give a rational, stable, reasonable reply to it? Because that is what landed the guy into prison! This is not a 2nd amendment issue.

What does rape have to do with some gun nut wishing to be a hero, by leaving his door unlocked and open, during which houses are being robbed, to go outside the security of his house, to confront an unknown number of targets, with unknown skill and equipment, without backup, nor a line of retreat, in the dead of night, without a flashlight?




Funny, I quoted you, but here are your words again:

"He'll get to room, shower, and even play with the very people his gun might have protected against."

"Play with" is a euphemism for jailhouse rape or becoming someone's bitch or however you want to phrase it.

You said that this is justice correctly served.

I have flat out told you that when you take away someone's ability to protect themselves, such as with incarceration, it is societies responsibility to do so and to suggest that rape was okay in that situation is VERY wrong.

Wishing incarcerated people to be raped is wrong.

Being gleeful or looking forward to someone being raped is wrong.

Rape is wrong.

Rape is NEVER okay.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 1:31:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?





Are you saying that if I leave my door unlocked (no matter what the circumstance) and confront an intruder in the hallway and blow his ass away that I am culpable?




Aylee -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/19/2014 1:59:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?





Are you saying that if I leave my door unlocked (no matter what the circumstance) and confront an intruder in the hallway and blow his ass away that I am culpable?



Well yes. Because you are male. If you were a woman to hold you culpable would be victim blaming.




Lucylastic -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 5:08:07 AM)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/18/deliberations-resume-in-exchange-student-killing/


LISA BAUMANN, Associated Press

MISSOULA, Mont. (AP) — Just days before he shot to death a 17-year-old German exchange student, Markus Kaarma told hair stylists he had been waiting up to shoot some kids who were burglarizing homes.

He told them they would see it on the news.

Kaarma hoped to bait an intruder by leaving his garage door partially open and placing a purse inside, prosecutors said. And when he did, a motion detector alerted him early April 27. Kaarma took a shotgun outside and almost immediately fired four blasts into the garage. Diren Dede, unarmed, was hit twice. He died after the final shot hit him in the head.

For those reasons, Kaarma's "castle doctrine" defense, which allows people to use deadly force to protect their home and family, failed him Wednesday. A Missoula jury convicted him of deliberate homicide.

Cheers erupted in the packed Missoula courtroom when the verdict was read. Dede's parents, from Hamburg, Germany, hugged and cried.

"It is very good," Dede's father, Celal Dede, said with tears in his eyes. "Long live justice."

Kaarma faces a minimum penalty of 10 years in prison when he is sentenced Feb. 11. His lawyers plan to appeal.

On Thursday, Dede's parents will give statements to the judge to consider at sentencing. Prosecutors asked for the hearing so the couple won't have to return to Missoula in February.

Kaarma's case was the latest in a series in which the shooter had invoked the castle doctrine, testing the boundaries of self-defense law.

In May, a 65-year-old Minnesota man was convicted of murder after lying in wait in his basement for two teenagers and killing them during a break-in. In July, an 89-year-old North Carolina man shot and killed a 47-year-old tenant who angrily demanded the landlord fix his air conditioning. Prosecutors declined to file charges.

Last year in Florida, a jury acquitted security guard George Zimmerman in the 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman followed the teenager, contended the boy attacked him, and was acquitted of murder even though he was not at his home at the time of the shooting.

More than 30 U.S. states, including Montana, have laws expanding the right of people to use deadly force to protect their homes or themselves, some of them known as "stand your ground" laws. The self-defense principle known as the castle doctrine is a centuries-old premise that a person has the right to defend their home against attack. The name evokes the old saying, "my home is my castle."

University of Montana law professor Andrew King-Ries noted state law does allow homeowners to use deadly force to protect their property, but it requires them to act reasonably.

"What the jury's saying here is, you have a right to defend yourself, but this isn't reasonable," King-Ries said. "Lots of people have guns here, and lots of people feel very strongly that comes with a responsibility to handle your weapon appropriately."

Kaarma's attorneys argued at trial that he feared for his life, didn't know if the intruder was armed, and was on edge because his garage was burglarized at least once in the weeks before the shooting. They said Kaarma feared for his family's safety.

But jurors heard neighbors testify that Kaarma's girlfriend, Janelle Pflager, told them the couple planned to bait and catch a burglar themselves because they believed police weren't responding.

They also heard hair stylist Tanya Colby, who testified that Kaarma told her during a haircut: "I've been up three nights with a shotgun waiting to kill some kids." She said he later told her, "I'm not kidding, you're seriously going to see this on the news."

One of Kaarma's neighbors, Terry Klise, called the verdict a "huge weight lifted."

"The man was a threat to our neighborhood," Klise said of Kaarma.

The German government followed the case closely. Hamburg prosecutor Carsten Rinio said this week his office had been investigating the Dede case, as required under German law.

"We are really grateful to everybody involved and particularly impressed by the outpouring of sympathy that Diren's parents experienced here in Missoula," Julia Reinhardt, with the German consulate in San Francisco, said Wednesday.






Stand your ground/castle doctrine is a screen for people like this dickwad...im glad he faces a long jail sentence for believing he could shoot n kill with impunity.




ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 7:51:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This person was not defending himself nor his family, when he left the security of the house, to confront the unknown opposition, with unknown skill and unknown equipment, head on, in the dark of night, with no backup nor clear line of retreat. This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?



You do realize that no one is arguing with you as to whether or not he should be in jail, right? You can keep repeating the same rant if it makes you feel better, but there's no one arguing the other side. Bama disagreed with your suggestion that he's going to jail for being a "gun nut", which isn't a crime, as opposed to committing murder, which is. Aylee is simply stating that your gleefully hoping that he'll be raped in prison is a tad warped. But neither said he shouldn't be in jail.




Lucylastic -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 7:56:17 AM)

you might wanna check out the original thread about this shooting when it happened
it went 18 pages.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4690836/mpage_1/tm.htm




slvemike4u -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 7:57:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?





Are you saying that if I leave my door unlocked (no matter what the circumstance) and confront an intruder in the hallway and blow his ass away that I am culpable?


Context is everything Hill
What he was clearly saying,if I might be so bold as to offer my opinion,was that when you set out cookies and milk,than hide and wait for Santa Claus to come down your chimney you are not allowed to pop out of your hide and blow Santa's ass away .




slvemike4u -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 7:59:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?





Are you saying that if I leave my door unlocked (no matter what the circumstance) and confront an intruder in the hallway and blow his ass away that I am culpable?



Well yes. Because you are male. If you were a woman to hold you culpable would be victim blaming.

Bullshit Aylee( and you were doing so well with the "rape is bad" line of reasoning)this idiot isn't going to jail cause he's a male




Aylee -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 10:26:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This person left his door open and unlocked, during a time when there were houses being broken into. Why?





Are you saying that if I leave my door unlocked (no matter what the circumstance) and confront an intruder in the hallway and blow his ass away that I am culpable?



Well yes. Because you are male. If you were a woman to hold you culpable would be victim blaming.

Bullshit Aylee( and you were doing so well with the "rape is bad" line of reasoning)this idiot isn't going to jail cause he's a male


Sorry Mike, it was tongue-in-cheek. The new line is that telling young ladies not to get drunk at college parties is "victim blaming." I was riffing off of that.

Locking your door and not getting drunk are both precautions to take to avoid something bad happening. It is, however, perfectly acceptable to tell someone that they are an idiot for not locking their door.




slvemike4u -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 11:08:01 AM)

One might tell a young lady she was an idiot for getting drunk.....telling her that something done to her along the lines of rape was her fault for getting drunk is a whole nother kettle of fish.
Rotten assed fish at that




ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/20/2014 11:19:32 AM)

I remember, but no one is arguing with him now.

At the time, I believe I said that while the kid wasn't blameless, but he didn't deserve to get shot over it.





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