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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 5:09:44 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		In the last 50 years are there many / any politicians from democracies that you do like.............not many. But would you swap them for any of the world leaders from non democratic countries.............probably not. To be a successful politician generally requires you haveing an over sized ego, inability to be wrong, too much money (or have friends pulling your stings with too much). Perhaps a better system would be for a random selection of 5 citizens / subjects (who do not have serious criminal prosecutions)  be put up as candidates for each position and the populace then elects one of them for the term. Youl'd probably get  a more representative sample of the population and may get some out the box thinking...........of course you could end up with the "stupid inarticulate puppet type"...or Mr I'll grin while my wife rakes in the millions on my title" .............but we got Bush and Blair all ready.......!

Given the posts on the forum it could make for some interesting G8 meetings...............!

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 5:43:00 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac
In the last 50 years are there many / any politicians from democracies that you do like.............not many.


You hit the nail on the head, in sort of an off-hand way. Who cared who we like or don't like ... it's about who did a servicable job.
 
Bill Clinton, George Bush Sr., Ronald Reagan, Richard M. Nixon, L.B.J., all seem like they did a pretty good job, or at least have accomplishments they can point to.
 
That Clinton got a blowjob and lied about it, or Nixon got caught wire tapping, means nothing. Those are just things used by the rival party to crucify the leader.
 
I wish I could make a list of leaders in the UK that have done a good job, but my learning scope hasn't made it that far yet. I apologize.

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 7:40:15 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		...in the UK ......practicaly none........but they achieved more than those that didn't get elected!!!

My personal favourites are two of the most reviled.....Maggie Thatcher.... she just went on to0 long & became a bit extreme, but was probably the right person at the right time in the right place for the UK...... John Major....a "decent" bloke from non privaleged background with good decent ideas but lacked political situation to enact them - he was better than Clinton at keeping his indiscretion out of the news though.

The Prime Minister who set up the national health service may be another .

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 7:59:14 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

...in the UK ......practicaly none........but they achieved more than those that didn't get elected!!!

My personal favourites are two of the most reviled.....Maggie Thatcher.... she just went on to0 long & became a bit extreme, but was probably the right person at the right time in the right place for the UK...... John Major....a "decent" bloke from non privaleged background with good decent ideas but lacked political situation to enact them - he was better than Clinton at keeping his indiscretion out of the news though.

The Prime Minister who set up the national health service may be another .


I think Thatcher did many necessary things in spite of herself but she could have been less destructive and less devisive. She killed off a lot of healthy industry along with the unhealthy industry. Harold Wilson for refusing to enter the Vietnam war and for speeding up the process started by MacMillan of pulling out of the colonies rather than doing the French option of wanting to hold onto colonial power.

Major should be knighted for services beyond the call of duty for his affair with Edwina Curry. Though I have to admit, I had a dark fantasy of doing her myself and particularly her daughter.

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 8:04:33 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		..yep.....there certainly is something about Edwina and daughter...I think spitting image spotted it first.........

I'm a product of Thatcher and only remember Wilson and his successor for crashing economy and union strife ......but point on Vietnam and end of Empire is valid.

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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 9:23:54 AM   
peterK50


Posts: 433
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure Lincoln was an attorney. The "problem" with Clinton's, Nixon's, Reagan's, & W's "activities" is that they were [are] illegal. You can question the motivation of investigation from the opposing party, but the facts bear them out. You can argue which is more serious, getting a BJ or torturing prisoners? But as Jefferson said "We are a nation of laws, not a nation of men". Leaders are not above the rule of law. I don't want a truck driver for President because of some supposed "Folk wisdom", that's foolish. I want the most qualified person put up by either party or independents. College isn't a guarantee of that, but it does teach you to think or at least sharpens that skill. Ideology often gets in the way of Intellect, but that's a personal failing.

_____________________________

Religion Is About Seeking Knowledge, Not Knowing All The Answers.

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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 11:43:12 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Dte, great idea about the "5 candidates!"
Peter, no, college or university surely isn't a mark of intelligence!
I know people with "degrees" who can't calculate a 15% tip in a restaurant, read road maps or figure out a bus schedule so I really can't see how a "degree" helps one "think."
Then there the "Gorillas" who got "athletic scholorships" but I won't even go there! lol
If you want to specialize in medicine, engineering, economics, nursing etc of course it's neccessary. Even the people who go to M.I.T. call it a "trade school."
I'm just tired of  "cookie cutter" Presidents and I certainly don't think any type of "degree" is neccessary to become President.
After all, what "qualifies" one to be President? There's certainly no school or job that would be even close.
The closest thing I can think of would be military service.
Given two Presidential candidates one with military service and one without I'd have to go with the one with the service as they sacrificed their time for our country and, it does take a little bit of "balls" to join the military.
*Thankyou for all your replies as it's interesting to hear all your opinions from around the country.*

(in reply to peterK50)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 12:45:38 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Another very intelligent person is Pat Buchanan. Seems like everything he warned us about over the years is comming true!
Just like we have a seperation between church and state we should have a seperation between big business and state!
And those lobbyists on "K" street have to go too!
Caitlyn, I seriously doubt that the draft dodger would have taken my lunch.I grew up in a tough Irish/Italian neighborhood in the Boston area



Errrrmmm..Popeye...what exactly do you think Pat Buchanan is...a graduate of the mean streets? You might want to visit the campus at Georgetown sometime.... it looks pretty Ivy League to me.

He too, is a silver spoon rich white guy who dodged the draft with a mystery physical ailment (that didn't keep him from playing prep school sports or assaulting cops when they tried to tell him he wasn't too rich or spoiled to be above the law).

http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm

And he 'politics'  just like all the others, so I'm guessing his fans are more impressed with his message than his actual pedigree.

Which is, of course, exactly how Bush, Clinton, et al. got elected...image, not substance..


(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 1:49:26 PM   
irishbynature


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Joined: 5/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Look at the last two Presidents we've had.
Do they really "Represent" what the people want?
And they both went to Yale! Just like Hillary Clinton and John "French" Kerry.
I'm of the mind that I'd like a "Man of the People" in the White House.
Someone like a truck driver type with NO "degree" of any type.
I mean what do we have to lose? Abraham Lincoln didn't have a "degree".
We always seem to get the same type of people in the White House!
I want something different!
I'm an Independant voter "Undeclared" and I don't like Republicans or Democrats!
How about you?


Popeye, I agree. I loved the part of our Nation's history when farmers, salesman, woodworkers, craftsmen (those from all walks of life) spend a term or two in DC representing their communities and knew what was in the best interests of those whom they represented. Now, politics is full of career junkies, Lobbiest, and those seeking to sake hands with corportions for their benefit.


_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 1:59:06 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Irish, well said!
I really don't think having a "degree" makes one a "Leader."
I would also be amenable to having a "House wife", or Secretary in the Whitehouse as well.

Alum, I agree with you about Pat Buchanan, brilliant mind but he didn't "walk the walk" he could have joined the military but didn't.
Thanks for your comments!

(in reply to irishbynature)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 3:11:38 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Glad you took it the way I meant it, the internet makes for distorted communications sometimes.

I've posted elsewhere about the irony of Ted Nugent (whose sarcastic barbs sometimes amuse me) becoming a symbol of ultra-patriotic militaristic machismo, when he himself went to bizarre lengths to avoid military service. 
Not that I particulary care if someone else didn't serve, it is the coming along later and wearing the flag that I find telling.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 6:47:38 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Alum, lol, yup Ted Nugent too!
And look at Geraldo  "I LOVE THE MILITARY" Rivera!
Where the hell was HE when Vietnam was going hot and heavy? He could have gone in!
Now he's a "wannabe" Marine, Sailor, Soldier, Airman.
There are camps called "Boot Camps" for guilty wealthy guys who ...um,..."missed out" on Vietnam that they pay BIG BUCKS to go to for two weeks and ret. military guys scream at them and make them do pushups! lol  There's one in Virginia I believe.
I got all that shit for free and they even payed me $162 per month at Great Lakes Recruit Training Center!

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 8:32:17 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

...in the UK ......practicaly none........but they achieved more than those that didn't get elected!!!

My personal favourites are two of the most reviled.....Maggie Thatcher.... she just went on to0 long & became a bit extreme, but was probably the right person at the right time in the right place for the UK...... John Major....a "decent" bloke from non privaleged background with good decent ideas but lacked political situation to enact them - he was better than Clinton at keeping his indiscretion out of the news though.

The Prime Minister who set up the national health service may be another .


I think Thatcher did many necessary things in spite of herself but she could have been less destructive and less devisive. She killed off a lot of healthy industry along with the unhealthy industry. Harold Wilson for refusing to enter the Vietnam war and for speeding up the process started by MacMillan of pulling out of the colonies rather than doing the French option of wanting to hold onto colonial power.

Major should be knighted for services beyond the call of duty for his affair with Edwina Curry. Though I have to admit, I had a dark fantasy of doing her myself and particularly her daughter.


I like Margie.... I think she had a hellva lot of heart.  She was also the only head of state in the world who told that crook over here, Kissinger, that ''Détente'' would result in failure for the US.



 - R





< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/16/2006 8:33:07 PM >

_____________________________

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-General George S. Patton


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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 9:07:26 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

what do you have against former President Clinton?

 
caitlyn,
That he wasted what he could accomplish as President on a BJ and made the focus of his second term be on his sex life. Another example where the cover-up was worse than the 'crime'.




Clinton ushered into the American economy the period of greatest economic expansion in the history of the United States.  Additionally, he elevated FEMA to a cabinet level position and made it work correctly, as opposed to FEMA under Reagan and Bush 1 which was appropriately described as "able to fuck up a 2 car parade."  Then there was the dramatic expansion of the militaries capabilities which allowed monkeyboy to conquer Iraq in 2 weeks.

Of course, nobody remembers Cheney stating during Desert Storm that the president uses the military built by their successor, but we seem to have people in office in this country not afflicted by being able to remember important facts.

The Republican party spent most of Clinton's terms trying to drive him out of office, and only succeeded when he let his little head drive.

Im sure the raging Bush lovers on this thread dont recall all the ranting and screaming about it being an impeachable offense for a sitting President to lie to congress.

I dont recall the name of the Federal prosecutor who stated that there is no difference between the things Kenneth Lay did and the things President Bush did; both of them abused their power and committed fraud to get people who worked for them to break the law.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 9:43:39 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Sinergy, wrong "BILL".
*BILL GATES* was responsible for the go-go nineties!

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/16/2006 10:58:02 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, wrong "BILL".
*BILL GATES* was responsible for the go-go nineties!


Last I heard Bill Gates wasn't a fan of Bush, even after the feds tried to break up his monopoly under Clinton.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/17/2006 12:31:24 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		You're right! Here's one company he worked with very well. Who knows how many others didn't hit the headlines.

Enron's chairman met with President Clinton and the vice president Gore in the Oval Office. Enron gave $420,000 to the president's party over three years. It donated $100,000 to the president's inauguration festivities. The Enron chairman stayed at the White House 11 times. The corporation had access to the administration at its highest level and even enlisted the Commerce and State Departments to grease deals for it. The taxpayer-supported Export-Import Bank subsidized Enron for more than $600 million in just one transaction.

No argument from me. President Clinton was good for business. And no argument that he was any different in this regard from President Bush or any of the others preceding or those to be proceeding. Especially when party identification and the need to "get even", or "punish" is the only issue considered when walking into the polling place.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/17/2006 12:35:51 PM >

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RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/17/2006 12:43:36 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I dont recall the name of the Federal prosecutor who stated that there is no difference between the things Kenneth Lay did and the things President Bush did; both of them abused their power and committed fraud to get people who worked for them to break the law.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy


The thing is that I find lies about weapons of mass destruction and coverups about outing CIA agents to be much more grievous than lies over a BJ, but that is just me and I could be wrong..smiles


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/17/2006 1:41:35 PM   
peterK50


Posts: 433
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		We can't get to the bottom of all W's alledged lies, crimes & distortions because all the Committee Chairs are Republicans who refuse to hold hearings or exercise subpoena power over the administration. Let's go back pre-9/11. The Bushies claimed Clinton's staffers vandalized the white house offices, "glued down the W's on every computer keyboard", then when pressed said "Oh, we just made that up" W. also decided to change the rules of the senate forcing a 1 day up or down vote on a staute that took 10 years to write, "The Ergonomic Standard For Worker Safety" which business said was too expensive & W.couldn't  screw the average guy fast enough.W. prior to 9/11 had vacationed at a faster rate the Ronald Reagan who was on vacation 2 of his 8 years in office.He also had cabinet officers [Treasury & Enviromental] resign for what they saw as abuse & fraud by W. Bill Clinton was no angel, but if he could run again for the Presidency I believe it would be a landslide victory of historical proportions.

_____________________________

Religion Is About Seeking Knowledge, Not Knowing All The Answers.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Tired of Frat Boys! - 7/17/2006 2:44:15 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Julia, no problem here with a B.J. it's the lying under Oath and Perjury that was the problem.
It's a Felony!
And, he lied directly to the American People!
That's even worse than a felony in my book!
The guy just never had any balls!

(in reply to peterK50)
Profile   Post #: 60
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