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RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:08:28 PM   
BitYakin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

You are innaccurate....again



http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx?time=3



and how does that graph show I am inaccurate?

because that graph shows that as little as 3 months ago gas was at 3.34? but if you click the 6 month graph you'll see it was at 3.68 a gallon, and in MY WORLD, that ALMOST 4.00 a gallon, and it has hovered in that area for ALMOST 6 years

ya know what it took almost a year for em to get it over 3.00 so instead of almost 6 years lets say almost 5 years. OK? better?

better yet click the 8 year graph and it pretty much bears out what I said...

there were spikes during the later years of bush, under Obama they rose STEADILY and until very recently NEVER ONCE dropped below 3.00 a gallon usually spiking and dropping between 4.00 and 3.50ish

The 8 year graph shows a change in price about every 6 mos or so and at no time did the price of gas 'stay' anywhere for 6 years.

Besides, the argument is superfluous. The actual price of gas in the US is subject to big speculative swings not honky because of the price of crude (sweet crude mostly) but swings in supply due to the US being the world's largest gas exporter.

Those exports are always a pressure to keep the price as high as possible.


I kinda thought that's what I said when I said "NEVER ONCE dropped below 3.00 a gallon usually spiking and dropping between 4.00 and 3.50ish"


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RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:23:48 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that's the difference. It's hypothetical to you.

and to those making minimum wages and paying half their income in rent just to have a roof over their heads.. even for the poor back in your starving musician days it was easier to make & save money (people pay probably around 10% more now of their income in tax than back then)..

Exactly the other way around. People pay less tax now.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:25:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that's the difference. It's hypothetical to you.

The hypothetical is that it is me as an example. It is anything but hypothetical for 1000's of real investors or investors in paper or things, taking real advantage of an immoral tax code.

Your beef is that an "investor class" is unfairly benefiting. My point is that being in "the investor class" is doable.

If it's only hypothetical for you, then you've planned poorly.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:25:59 PM   
cloudboy


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If you want to make proletarian -- worker centric arguments -- I understand that. But that is a separate issue.

It is important to the country and the economy that the investor class is doing well.

As I previously stated --- if you are upset about wealth distribution / income inequality --- then make a case to raise capital gains taxes, support unions, and protest globalization. Get behind Elizabeth Warren for President.

You and some others on this thread remind me of the Russian Mentality. "I have one cow but my neighbor has two. What do I do? Find out a way to get another cow myself? No, I kill one of his cows. Now we're equal."

In a capitalist system -- if you want wealth -- you have to invest and save and watch the nut compound. Frankly this is a good thing, I'm happy the stock market is up on fundamentals.

(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:32:56 PM   
cloudboy


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March 6, 2009

Nasdaq Composite Index: 1293

December 26, 2014

Nasdaq Composite Index: 4806

That is 371% up from the BUSH Bottom.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:36:17 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that's the difference. It's hypothetical to you.

and to those making minimum wages and paying half their income in rent just to have a roof over their heads.. even for the poor back in your starving musician days it was easier to make & save money (people pay probably around 10% more now of their income in tax than back then)..

Exactly the other way around. People pay less tax now.

I don't believe that..

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 3:36:19 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		WHAT "investor class"?

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:02:03 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and I do tend to post based on personal observation rather than based on some eggheads charts


Then, you'll have to accept arguments other people make (especially when they are basing them on their own personal observations) that don't align with your personal observations.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:27:42 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that's the difference. It's hypothetical to you.

and to those making minimum wages and paying half their income in rent just to have a roof over their heads.. even for the poor back in your starving musician days it was easier to make & save money (people pay probably around 10% more now of their income in tax than back then)..

Exactly the other way around. People pay less tax now.


FY1993 Personal Income Tax (Federal) revenues: $509.68B (FY1993 dollars)[Source]
FY2013 Personal Income Tax (Federal) revenues: $1306.405B (FY2013 dollars) [Source]
FY1993 Personal Income Tax (Federal) revenues: $752.16B (FY2013 dollars) [Calculator Source]

Apparently, people pay more taxes now...

And, the Top 1% continue to shoulder a large burden of those taxes (which means they are paying that much more than before!).



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:29:05 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		personal observations are unreliable when talking about facts.

but apparently only eggheads know that,
DOH

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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:29:45 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		And, given that I'm in the fourth quintile now, and the bottom quintile then, exactly, I pay less tax now, and not, as tj claimed, less tax then.

Reading. It's a wonderful skill.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:44:22 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And, given that I'm in the fourth quintile now, and the bottom quintile then, exactly, I pay less tax now, and not, as tj claimed, less tax then.
Reading. It's a wonderful skill.


Based on the graph, there are zero instances where the percent of Federal income taxes shouldered by the bottom quintile at any point was higher than the percent of Federal income taxes shouldered by the 4th quintile at any point. In the late 2000's, the % paid by the 4th quintile was, roughly, 12% (the lowest) and the highest for the bottom quintile was, roughly, 0%, your math don't add up.

And, as Lucy pointed out: "personal observations are unreliable when talking about facts. "




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:52:29 PM   
cloudboy


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Good policies don't know "left" and "right." Good polices simply work and garner good results. I give Obama credit for steering the Country in a good direction. As was noted earlier, his economic recovery has been greater than Reagan's.


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 4:57:51 PM   
cloudboy


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Those deriving either income or capital growth through investments.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 5:12:31 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I think you are making a rather stupid and misleading point.

If you have 100 units of wealth and 100 people --- and the top 5 of those people own 61 units of wealth and top 20 people own 84 units of wealth -- yes those top 20 will pay the highest amount of taxes. Why? BECAUSE THEY FUCKING OWN EVERYTHING.

You try to make it seem that poor people are freeloading off the super wealthy. THAT'S FUCKED UP. As in the scenario above, 5 people own 61 units of wealth.

See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMhvYeQPOcE

What's interesting is that the super wealthy 1% pay a lower marginal tax rate then regular workers because most of their income is derived from capital gains. I think Mitt Romney confessed to paying taxes at a rate of 14.1%. As a percentage of his income he pays next to nothing in payroll taxes.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/26/2014 5:18:59 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 7:23:53 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And, given that I'm in the fourth quintile now, and the bottom quintile then, exactly, I pay less tax now, and not, as tj claimed, less tax then.
Reading. It's a wonderful skill.


Based on the graph, there are zero instances where the percent of Federal income taxes shouldered by the bottom quintile at any point was higher than the percent of Federal income taxes shouldered by the 4th quintile at any point. In the late 2000's, the % paid by the 4th quintile was, roughly, 12% (the lowest) and the highest for the bottom quintile was, roughly, 0%, your math don't add up.

And, as Lucy pointed out: "personal observations are unreliable when talking about facts. "




OK Einstein. You show me how a starving artist would pay more taxes now starting out than a few decades back.

I'll wait here. Forgive me if I multi-task while I wait.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/26/2014 7:24:24 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/26/2014 7:25:12 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Those deriving either income or capital growth through investments.

How is that a "class," as it cuts across all economic/social strata?

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/27/2014 12:02:47 AM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


If you want to make proletarian -- worker centric arguments -- I understand that. But that is a separate issue.



No, it isn't a separate issue, they are one and the same.

quote:

It is important to the country and the economy that the investor class is doing well.


Guess what, if the workers aren't able to spend their income, then it means fuckall to the economy. As far as that goes, if it is important that the investor class is doing well, then please explain to me why corporate profits are at an all time high in this country while wages are at an all time low? A simply perusal of governmental financial statistics will bear this out.

quote:

As I previously stated --- if you are upset about wealth distribution / income inequality --- then make a case to raise capital gains taxes, support unions, and protest globalization. Get behind Elizabeth Warren for President.


Which is exactly why I am not getting a boner talking about the rise and prosperity of the stock market.

quote:

You and some others on this thread remind me of the Russian Mentality. "I have one cow but my neighbor has two. What do I do? Find out a way to get another cow myself? No, I kill one of his cows. Now we're equal."


Did you just call me a Communist, Comrade??

Simple economics 101 for you: You have a product that no one can buy because they lack the money to do so, you starve. A gross oversimplification, but since I am a Communist...

quote:

In a capitalist system -- if you want wealth -- you have to invest and save and watch the nut compound. Frankly this is a good thing, I'm happy the stock market is up on fundamentals.


Right on... which is why wealthy people do not keep their money in the USA.

This country did its best when jobs were plentiful and people could go spend their money, or invest it. Now, people do not have as much disposable income and investing for them is impractical and economically impossible and therefore the Stock Market is for people who can afford it.

_____________________________

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I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/27/2014 6:59:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
OK Einstein. You show me how a starving artist would pay more taxes now starting out than a few decades back.
I'll wait here. Forgive me if I multi-task while I wait.


Not my assertion to prove, MM. You claimed people are paying less now than before. I showed that they are paying more now than before. You brought in your personal observation and made claims of where you were and where you are now. Your story doesn't line up with the graph at all, which means, you probably aren't the "average" case in either quintile. But, even if you were right (which is yours to prove, not mine to disprove), your personal observation doesn't mean it's the case for everyone, or even for the average person in the same quintiles you were/are in.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/27/2014 7:08:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I think you are making a rather stupid and misleading point.
If you have 100 units of wealth and 100 people --- and the top 5 of those people own 61 units of wealth and top 20 people own 84 units of wealth -- yes those top 20 will pay the highest amount of taxes. Why? BECAUSE THEY FUCKING OWN EVERYTHING.
You try to make it seem that poor people are freeloading off the super wealthy. THAT'S FUCKED UP. As in the scenario above, 5 people own 61 units of wealth.
See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMhvYeQPOcE
What's interesting is that the super wealthy 1% pay a lower marginal tax rate then regular workers because most of their income is derived from capital gains. I think Mitt Romney confessed to paying taxes at a rate of 14.1%. As a percentage of his income he pays next to nothing in payroll taxes.


Fewer people have any Federal Income tax liability than they did in 2000. Fewer people in 2008 had Federal Income Tax liability than in 2000.

Your analysis of what I'm saying is flawed, as usual. I'm saying that taxpayers are paying more now than they did before, and that those in the higher income quintiles are paying a larger share of it. For all the blather about "the rich" not paying their "fair share," how do we define a "fair share?" Unless you have some set objective point at which you define a "fair share" that will apply to everyone, you're whining is nothing more than sour grapes.

Fact: The rich are paying an increasing share of Federal Income taxes.
Fact: The percentage of taxpayers with no Federal Income tax liability is rising.

You claim the top 20 people own 84% of the wealth. The graph shows they are shouldering 94% of the Federal Income tax burden. Wouldn't it be fair to reduce that burden down to 84%?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 80
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