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RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 3:13:10 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		So other than wanting desperately to argue with me, what point are you disputing precisely?

As I already told you,


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
A statement you completely removed from the context of the discussion it was in to pretend it was about a completely different matter.
You want to make-believe otherwise, fine.


You claimed that people aren't paying as much in taxes now as they used to. I totally debunked the fuck out of that. Now, you're saying it was taken out of context.

The thing is, MM, damn near everyone else would identify this as reality. You should join it some time.



Fine, let's ignore the discussion you forced yourself into and have your discussion instead.

You are cherry picking how you define "people paying taxes." You're looking at total revenue. My point in the previous discussion that to rise to what some were calling "the investor class," taxes were not a barrier now vs a few decades back, because we're paying fewer taxes person to person, vs. as a group.

That's reality, O Paragon of Humility.

And nothing either of us said defies that. Happy? Feel like you've "won" yet?






< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/29/2014 3:14:17 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 3:14:58 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Income tax is not capital gains tax...two different taxes.

For individuals, capital gains aren't considered income, and capital gains taxes aren't part of income taxes for individuals?

Realized capital gains are income, however, and are taxable. Unrealized capital gains are merely potential profits, not yet realized.


Do "capital gains" taxes apply to unrealized capital gains?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 3:16:40 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So other than wanting desperately to argue with me, what point are you disputing precisely?
As I already told you,


Desperate? ME? LMAO!

Just pointing out, you can't even admit when you're wrong.

Be well, MM.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 3:18:00 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure a sane reader can view the paired sentences and correctly ascertain the contrast between the two.

Why would ANYTHING "potential" be taxed? FFS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 3:19:31 PM   
KYsissy


Posts: 781
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Income tax is not capital gains tax...two different taxes.

For individuals, capital gains aren't considered income, and capital gains taxes aren't part of income taxes for individuals?

Realized capital gains are income, however, and are taxable. Unrealized capital gains are merely potential profits, not yet realized.


Do "capital gains" taxes apply to unrealized capital gains?


No. Take stocks for instance. Any potential profit showing is not taxable until it is sold. The tax rates are different depending on if it is short term or long term. If you hold the stock for under a year, the rate is 30% on the profits, 15% for stocks held over a year.

Ballpark numbers, and i may be totally wrong.


< Message edited by KYsissy -- 12/29/2014 3:21:38 PM >

_____________________________

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
Will Rogers, 1897-1935

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 3:19:35 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So other than wanting desperately to argue with me, what point are you disputing precisely?
As I already told you,


Desperate? ME? LMAO!

Just pointing out, you can't even admit when you're wrong.

Be well, MM.




In short, you aren't disputing any of it, so you fall back on horse laugh to let yourself feel better.

I'm well. Thanks.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:01:01 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I'm pretty sure a sane reader can view the paired sentences and correctly ascertain the contrast between the two.
Why would ANYTHING "potential" be taxed? FFS.


All you had to do was answer the question.

The reason it was asked, wasn't because I didn't know. It was asked because I could say it, but few would accept it from me. That you answered it carries far more weight than anything I could have said, even if I had quoted the IRS tax law stating it.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:04:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So other than wanting desperately to argue with me, what point are you disputing precisely?
As I already told you,

Desperate? ME? LMAO!
Just pointing out, you can't even admit when you're wrong.
Be well, MM.

In short, you aren't disputing any of it, so you fall back on horse laugh to let yourself feel better.
I'm well. Thanks.


'Round and 'round and 'round he goes...


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:07:21 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Whatever.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:37:24 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Next question is -- what's wrong with encouraging investors at all socio-economic levels through tax break incentives?

After all, if you're poor, and saving gets the hell taxed out of it, what's the point? But if it's encouraged, it helps lift people out of hand-to-mouth poverty over time.

Because as even Adam Smith acknowledged, the poor must devote almost all of their income if not ALL of it on food, clothing and shelter (now add transportation) while the wealthy have in many cases million$ in totally discretionary income which means million$ more in which to enjoy the 'investment' of simply buying and selling which is what capital gains is.

That's also BTW why he believed in a progressive income tax schedule. There simply is no need for an investment tax incentive over and above the tax incentive for labor. Incentives should be equal if not tilted toward labor.

Let's not forget that for 150 years, we had NO income tax and were doing just fine.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/29/2014 8:53:16 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:38:57 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Can we get back to the core question:

March 6, 2009

Nasdaq Composite Index: 1293

December 26, 2014

Nasdaq Composite Index: 4806

--------

Is ^^^^^ this good news or bad news? How do you explain so many upset people on this thread? If I'm a one cow guy, why am I happy about the stock market?

YES, equities (paper) value is up and it does the bottom 80% almost no fucking good at all.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:40:48 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Income tax is not capital gains tax...two different taxes.


For individuals, capital gains aren't considered income, and capital gains taxes aren't part of income taxes for individuals?


Nice try but that's political semantics...income is income period just as in the first 150 years of our history when there was NO income tax at all.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/29/2014 8:53:43 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:42:46 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well corporations are paying less taxes:

http://www.politicususa.com/2012/10/25/bernie-sanders-exposes-18-ceos-trillions-bailouts-evaded-taxes-outsourced-jobs.html

Corporate taxes are at a 60 year low. In the 50's corporate taxes paid $1.50 for every $1 in income taxes. No it's .25 per $1 of income tax.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:46:03 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Income tax is not capital gains tax...two different taxes.


For individuals, capital gains aren't considered income, and capital gains taxes aren't part of income taxes for individuals?


Realized capital gains are income, however, and are taxable. Unrealized capital gains are merely potential profits, not yet realized.

In the tax code there are long term capital gains. (gains, i.e. profits fro the sale of anything held for 1 year) Then there are short term capital gains or profits from the sale of anything held for less than a year.

Of one realizes a profit...one realizes a gain.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:47:55 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that's the difference. It's hypothetical to you.

and to those making minimum wages and paying half their income in rent just to have a roof over their heads.. even for the poor back in your starving musician days it was easier to make & save money (people pay probably around 10% more now of their income in tax than back then)..

Exactly the other way around. People pay less tax now.


FY1993 Personal Income Tax (Federal) revenues: $509.68B (FY1993 dollars)[Source]
FY2013 Personal Income Tax (Federal) revenues: $1306.405B (FY2013 dollars) [Source]
FY1993 Personal Income Tax (Federal) revenues: $752.16B (FY2013 dollars) [Calculator Source]

Apparently, people pay more taxes now...

And, the Top 1% continue to shoulder a large burden of those taxes (which means they are paying that much more than before!).



Income tax is not capital gains tax...two different taxes.

Both are taxes on income. Have a look at the tax form.

1040 and 1040 schedule C which are taxes subject the tax tables are not capital gains which do not go on those forms.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:48:54 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Your head must really hurt at night.

Yes, there are long term and short term capital gains taxed at different rates -- and both taxed as personal income. Don't believe me, read the tax form. Page 1.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/29/2014 8:49:28 PM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:50:50 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because as even Adam Smith acknowledged, the poor must devote almost all of their income if not ALL of it on food, clothing and shelter (now add transportation) while the wealthy have in many cases million$ in totally discretionary income which means million$ more in which to enjoy the 'investment' of simply buying and selling which is what capital gains is.

I tried to explain this to cloudboy, but he refuses to accept it.
Thank you for explaining it so well, AGAIN.

That's also BTW why he believed in a progressive income tax schedule. There simply is no need for an investment tax incentive over and above the tax incentive for labor. Incentives should be equal if not tilted toward labor.

Let's nor forget that for 150 years, we had NO income tax and were doing just fine.


Mr. Rogers, I think many people are deliberately obtuse.
It's not that they "don't get it", they do not want to "get it".



< Message edited by Marini -- 12/29/2014 8:52:09 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:52:15 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Income tax is not capital gains tax...two different taxes.

For individuals, capital gains aren't considered income, and capital gains taxes aren't part of income taxes for individuals?

Realized capital gains are income, however, and are taxable. Unrealized capital gains are merely potential profits, not yet realized.


Do "capital gains" taxes apply to unrealized capital gains?


No. Take stocks for instance. Any potential profit showing is not taxable until it is sold. The tax rates are different depending on if it is short term or long term. If you hold the stock for under a year, the rate is 30% on the profits, 15% for stocks held over a year.

Ballpark numbers, and i may be totally wrong.


You've got it. Gains are called gains because they are not income...they are gains and only for tax purposes, from buying and selling holding short or long term.

Short subject to the tax tables...long term I think are now 20%. BUT dividends on stock is still 15%. It is immoral...proma facie.

(in reply to KYsissy)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 8:57:29 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Can we get back to the core question:

March 6, 2009

Nasdaq Composite Index: 1293

December 26, 2014

Nasdaq Composite Index: 4806

-------
Is ^^^^^ this good news or bad news? How do you explain so many upset people on this thread? If I'm a one cow guy, why am I happy about the stock market?

YES, equities (paper) value is up and it does the bottom 80% almost no fucking good at all.



I see the bottom 80-90% out celebrating the rising stock market all the time!!
yeeeee fucking hawwww they say!



< Message edited by Marini -- 12/29/2014 9:10:25 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Fluffy Feel Good Money News about the US Stock Market - 12/29/2014 9:40:31 PM   
tetonguide


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/16/2008
Status: offline 		The current stock market is complete crap. Know anyone making money? Are you making money hand over fist? Its rigged.
The feds loan zero interest money. the banks give it to corporations who buy back each others stocks to falsely fund their pensions which they will raid before payin out to their employees. Shareholder value----haha the ponzie scheme of the new mellenium. A properly funded retirement account avoids severe IRS penalties - a law passed by Bush by the way. Its all paper bullshit. I'll believe it when Salaries across the board go up and corporations hire FULL TIME workers (which cost benefits). NO ONE I know is getting rich and I know a lot of PHD's baggin groceries too. A few hundred thousand insiders making money in the market IS NOT a recovered economy. Get a clue.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 120
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