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BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 4:34:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I keep seeing my nick brought up in relation to this thread. Have people here any idea of how bizarre this is to me? I know nothing about guns, as I have frequently stated. I am as a mere child in this debate, I freely admit. So ... how the hell can someone like me make a point about gun safety that you in the USA, so used to guns as you are, haven't already hammered to death and sorted out decades ago?


In the original posting I pointed out that you have said that you didn't know much about guns, even (as I meant it ) giving you credit for admitting it. You are correct we have hammered it out long ago. Since safeties aren't perfect (nothing is) some people assume they have to be totally reworked. The first thing needed for a safety to work is, of course, for them to be used. The more complex they are the less they will be used, which was one of the biggest problems with your well intentioned suggestion. My problem with this has nothing really to do with your suggestion but that MM somehow thinks that my not liking it means I have no problem with toddlers being able to fire guns. Sorry if you feel put upon in this, that was not my intention and I doubt that it is MMs but won't say for sure as his head explodes when he thinks I ascribe any position to him.




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 4:40:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The trigger is already on the weapon. That isn't changing. Is it too hard to fire NOW?


Lets see once the safety is off it fires, a true statement which ignores the point.
The more complex you make the safety the longer it takes to get to the point where the finger is on the the trigger.
Again you should be able to figure that out even without knowing the first thing about firearms.

You, who know firearms, should be about to figure out that staging the trigger but not firing the weapon and then having it discharge on its own is bad, and that fixing that defect isn't making the weapon "more complex." It just means the trigger works the way it's supposed to work.

[8|]



Yes I know that it isn't firing the weapon, I also know it is a dangerous and stupid practice that leads to accidents.
I didn't say that and you should know that. I said making the safety more complex would be a bad idea.
You are ascribing a statement I made about one thing as being one I made about another.
You are still ranting against a position I never took, how many times do I have to say that if there is a flaw it needs to be fixed before it sinks in to you that I said it.




lovmuffin -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 5:01:22 PM)

quote:

Musicmystery
Doesn't help that the NRA is infamous for fighting gun safety laws.


The NRA is infamous for promoting firearms safety. That's quite the opposite of what you just declared. But if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.


quote:


So where are the knowledgeable firearms folk leading the charge to address the design flaw? Or any other gun safety charge?


What other gun safety issue aside from the design flaw on this particular S&W are you referring to ? I don't know exactly why S&W hasn't or isn't addressing the problem either but I'll jump up on my high horse next to you, draw my saber and lead the charge. [8D]

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 5:16:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

Musicmystery
Doesn't help that the NRA is infamous for fighting gun safety laws.


The NRA is infamous for promoting firearms safety. That's quite the opposite of what you just declared. But if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.


quote:


So where are the knowledgeable firearms folk leading the charge to address the design flaw? Or any other gun safety charge?


What other gun safety issue aside from the design flaw on this particular S&W are you referring to ? I don't know exactly why S&W hasn't or isn't addressing the problem either but I'll jump up on my high horse next to you, draw my saber and lead the charge. [8D]

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]

I just checked the manual. It says that if you stage the trigger you may get an unintended discharge. They clearly think that it is an operator malfunction like climbing over a fence with you finger on the trigger.
It doesn't happen unless you are doing something unsafe anyway, and the fix is don't stage.




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 5:19:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

Musicmystery
Doesn't help that the NRA is infamous for fighting gun safety laws.


The NRA is infamous for promoting firearms safety. That's quite the opposite of what you just declared. But if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.


quote:


So where are the knowledgeable firearms folk leading the charge to address the design flaw? Or any other gun safety charge?


What other gun safety issue aside from the design flaw on this particular S&W are you referring to ? I don't know exactly why S&W hasn't or isn't addressing the problem either but I'll jump up on my high horse next to you, draw my saber and lead the charge. [8D]

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]

And let us not forget that the cause of this tragedy is that she left the firearm unattended, something the manual warns you again 3 times in the first 10 pages.




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 5:29:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

Musicmystery
Doesn't help that the NRA is infamous for fighting gun safety laws.


The NRA is infamous for promoting firearms safety. That's quite the opposite of what you just declared. But if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.


quote:


So where are the knowledgeable firearms folk leading the charge to address the design flaw? Or any other gun safety charge?


What other gun safety issue aside from the design flaw on this particular S&W are you referring to ? I don't know exactly why S&W hasn't or isn't addressing the problem either but I'll jump up on my high horse next to you, draw my saber and lead the charge. [8D]

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]

The safer shooting is the more people who shoot the more will become members. The more members they have the more power the have.
So even if they are the cynical power hungry sobs he wants to believe them to be they would still promote gun safety. But that's never in a headline so he doesn't know about it. Besides the Brady bunch says the NRA doesn't care about safety so it must be true, they never lie.




lovmuffin -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 6:20:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

Musicmystery
Doesn't help that the NRA is infamous for fighting gun safety laws.


The NRA is infamous for promoting firearms safety. That's quite the opposite of what you just declared. But if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.


quote:


So where are the knowledgeable firearms folk leading the charge to address the design flaw? Or any other gun safety charge?


What other gun safety issue aside from the design flaw on this particular S&W are you referring to ? I don't know exactly why S&W hasn't or isn't addressing the problem either but I'll jump up on my high horse next to you, draw my saber and lead the charge. [8D]

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]

I just checked the manual. It says that if you stage the trigger you may get an unintended discharge. They clearly think that it is an operator malfunction like climbing over a fence with you finger on the trigger.
It doesn't happen unless you are doing something unsafe anyway, and the fix is don't stage.


Staging the trigger would be taking up the slack before reaching the follow through point where the firing pin is released striking the primer, right ? I'm not familiar with exactly how the S&W works but I know how my Glock works. If I staged the trigger but changed my mind and released the pressure only to have the weapon discharge, I wouldn't like that, nor would I consider it safe, even if there was a warning in the manual. The Glock is not, though is similar to, a double action.

Anyway, knowing this about the S&W would make me not want to buy it.b

ETA: Could it be that it takes very little pressure to follow through once the trigger is staged ?




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 6:45:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

Musicmystery
Doesn't help that the NRA is infamous for fighting gun safety laws.


The NRA is infamous for promoting firearms safety. That's quite the opposite of what you just declared. But if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.


quote:


So where are the knowledgeable firearms folk leading the charge to address the design flaw? Or any other gun safety charge?


What other gun safety issue aside from the design flaw on this particular S&W are you referring to ? I don't know exactly why S&W hasn't or isn't addressing the problem either but I'll jump up on my high horse next to you, draw my saber and lead the charge. [8D]

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]

I just checked the manual. It says that if you stage the trigger you may get an unintended discharge. They clearly think that it is an operator malfunction like climbing over a fence with you finger on the trigger.
It doesn't happen unless you are doing something unsafe anyway, and the fix is don't stage.


Staging the trigger would be taking up the slack before reaching the follow through point where the firing pin is released striking the primer, right ? I'm not familiar with exactly how the S&W works but I know how my Glock works. If I staged the trigger but changed my mind and released the pressure only to have the weapon discharge, I wouldn't like that, nor would I consider it safe, even if there was a warning in the manual. The Glock is not, though is similar to, a double action.

Anyway, knowing this about the S&W would make me not want to buy it.

They describe it as pulling it back till just before the firing pin goes off and then releasing it. I don't like it either and would really like to see it fixed. If they don't fix it people won't buy it and the stigma will spread across the rest of the brand.
However I consider staging to be a unsafe practice in any case. Kind of glad I got a Taurus instead, although I wouldn't have gotten this model in any case. Smith is still recovering from being owned by the British. Both of the Smiths I currently own are revolvers. I prefer them to Auto loaders.
Of course one is over 130 years old in .38 smith and wesson (not to be confused with the .38 short colt-.357 family. A true .38. It also has a safety flaw if you are unfamiliar with it. In the hammer down position the firing pin rests on the primer of the round in the cylinder. Unlike most double actions it has a partial, you might say half cock position which move the firing pin back. Discovered the problem accidentally, happened to notice it from the side with the light behind it. At that point I realized the reason for the half cock position. Of course it was about 90 when I got it so the documentation and knowledge of the problem was long lost. Doubt there ever was documentation that long ago.




Musicmystery -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 6:53:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

BTW, thanks for the lesson on quotations. [sm=fingers.gif]

You're the one who got all huffy over it. Now you're huffy over the correction.

Not a very happy person there.




Musicmystery -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 7:18:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
if you can show me where the NRA fights gun safety laws then I'll drop my membership.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/05/09/the-national-rifle-associations-campaign-to-sto/199235
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/no-funds-studies-gun-violence-article-1.1809263
http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra-kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1
http://www.salon.com/2012/07/25/the_nras_war_on_gun_science/
http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2013/02/gun-violence.aspx
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/politics/senate-obama-gun-control.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://everytown.org/documents/2014/10/not-your-grandparents-nra.pdf
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-13/gun-lobby-helps-block-data-collection-by-crimefighters.html
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116679/smart-guns-microstamping-cartridges-matters-more-nra-blocks-it
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/28/nra-block-un-treaty-gun-control
http://www.childrensdefense.org/newsroom/cdf-in-the-news/press-releases/2013/new-childrens-defense-fund.html
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/20/1366561/how-the-nra-stifled-gun-violence-research/
http://www.americasquarterly.org/content/nras-hemispheric-reach
http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-nra-wants-to-ban-this-gun/190931/
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailybeast.com%2Farticles%2F2014%2F05%2F15%2Fpediatricians-take-on-the-nra-over-gun-safety.html&ei=HLvBVPT5A8KBgwTikIGwCQ&usg=AFQjCNEtKftkUW3R3c-R2xt1wORY8_TjEA&sig2=e-KO6Kyo7JyDjzhfvqfqnw&bvm=bv.84349003,d.eXY
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/13/gun_nuts_powerful_new_enemy_how_pediatricians_are_taking_on_the_nra/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/25/nra-stalkers-_n_5530097.html
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/guns-2014-elections-nra-bloomberg-gabby-giffords
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/04/22/nra-lobbying-increase/2104075/
http://smartgunlaws.org/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/apnewsbreak-nra-suing-pennsylvania-cities-over-gun/?page=all
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bloomberg-pledges-50m-fight-nra-article-1.1757801
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2012/0727/Gun-control-Why-the-US-military-is-fighting-with-the-NRA
http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/why-does-nra-fight-gun-laws-it-hates-government-more-than-bad-guys/
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/07/29/3465210/nra-lobbyist-anti-semitism/
http://www.parmarng.org/index.php/gun-myths-busted/61-other/myth-truth/98-nra-opposes-all-bans.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/alex-stuckey/nra-s-opposition-to-amendment-to-federal-gun-law-nullification/article_35a50cca-7de8-552c-a238-a1ac190d39c8.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-21/nra-calls-for-armed-guards-in-schools-to-prevent-killings.html
http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/5/5683504/gun-control-the-nra-wants-to-take-smart-guns-away

...it goes on.




Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 7:59:19 PM)


A number of those websites are cesspools of bias. If you want to adopt a position that isn't contaminated, may I suggest that you examine the NRA's reasons for its stance on any issues that concern you by going directly to the source?

https://www.nraila.org/

K.




Musicmystery -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 8:05:43 PM)

One of my objections, that the NRA blocks local gun control law, is, while in my view a problem, at least understandable.

But two others are especially problematic -- that the NRA blocks funding for gun research -- doesn't even want the data known
And that this supposed defender of the 2nd Amendment blocks guns it doesn't like from manufacturers it doesn't like. Not so 2nd Amendment.

Bluntly, it's a trade group serving a select team of manufacturers. It might at one time have been more well-intentioned, but those days have gone.




Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 8:10:23 PM)


Nobody glows in the dark, not even the NRA. But I can't respond to claims without evidence. If you want to get down to documented cases that I can review and comment on, I'll share my opinions with you.

K.




Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 8:37:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Staging the trigger would be taking up the slack before reaching the follow through point where the firing pin is released striking the primer, right ? I'm not familiar with exactly how the S&W works but I know how my Glock works. If I staged the trigger but changed my mind and released the pressure only to have the weapon discharge, I wouldn't like that, nor would I consider it safe, even if there was a warning in the manual. The Glock is not, though is similar to, a double action.

You're right. I tend to lump striker-fired pistols in with DAOs, but that's not really accurate. I was careless in my earlier post. If you can take up the trigger to a point of resistance where pulling through it will fire the gun, that's staging the trigger. Striker-fired pistols don't really have a double-action trigger because after chambering a round the weapon is half cocked.

K.






DaddySatyr -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 9:10:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Staging the trigger would be taking up the slack before reaching the follow through point where the firing pin is released striking the primer, right ? I'm not familiar with exactly how the S&W works but I know how my Glock works. If I staged the trigger but changed my mind and released the pressure only to have the weapon discharge, I wouldn't like that, nor would I consider it safe, even if there was a warning in the manual. The Glock is not, though is similar to, a double action.

Anyway, knowing this about the S&W would make me not want to buy it.b

ETA: Could it be that it takes very little pressure to follow through once the trigger is staged ?



I always believed that the only person that staged a Trigger was Roy Rogers.



Michael




Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 9:14:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I always believed that the only person that staged a Trigger was Roy Rogers.

LOL





DaddySatyr -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 9:17:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I always believed that the only person that staged a Trigger was Roy Rogers.



LOL



I figured it would be one of the oldies, here to appreciate it.



Michael.




Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 9:22:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I figured it would be one of the oldies, here to appreciate it.

It's good to know I have friends. [8D]

K.





lovmuffin -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 11:04:36 PM)

Not only what Kirata said but many of your links pertain to NRA backed CDC funding cuts for gun violence research. Congress cut off funding because the NRA demonstrated to legislators the CDC was buying political misinformation and promoting lies rather than doing scientific research. The anti gun CDC was simply being used by anti gun legislators to promote their gun control agenda. Big surprise the NRA opposes the funding.

As far as your first link on smart guns, I don't know anybody who wants one. Despite all the crap on your link, the NRA only apposes smart gun government mandates.

Nice try but I'm not dropping my NRA membership just yet.




lovmuffin -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (1/22/2015 11:07:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Staging the trigger would be taking up the slack before reaching the follow through point where the firing pin is released striking the primer, right ? I'm not familiar with exactly how the S&W works but I know how my Glock works. If I staged the trigger but changed my mind and released the pressure only to have the weapon discharge, I wouldn't like that, nor would I consider it safe, even if there was a warning in the manual. The Glock is not, though is similar to, a double action.

Anyway, knowing this about the S&W would make me not want to buy it.b

ETA: Could it be that it takes very little pressure to follow through once the trigger is staged ?



I always believed that the only person that staged a Trigger was Roy Rogers.



Michael



Good one...........High Ho Silver and Away




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