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Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/4/2015 10:12:24 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		The ICC was established with the intention to bring criminal proceedings against state leaders under three broad categories, later carefully defined, for engaging in genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. All categories arising from the histories of the two major wars of the 20th Century. Clearly, the judicial punishment against genocide and crimes against humanity would seem to be appealing to the world's Jews.

Palestine is recognized as a sovereign nation by 193 member nations of the United Nations. So, it is unclear to me why Israel and the United States object to the Palestinian application to the ICC, as I have heard, on the basis that in doing so Palestine is disrupting the 'peace process' toward a two nation solution. Perhaps someone here can explain the politics and legalities involved in the positions taken by Israel and the US. Does anyone understand this curious turn of events?
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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 12:14:47 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does anyone understand this curious turn of events?

Israel doesn't want a two-state solution?

Just a wild guess.

K.


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 12:33:43 AM   
DaddySatyr


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For a long time, Israel has tried to obliterate any memory of Palestine; quite the opposite of the campaign they've led about the Holocaust.

For years, Israel insisted that any agreement meant that any of their Arab neighbors had to "recognize Israel's right to exist" whereas they are endeavoring to do just the opposite, when it comes to Palestine.

This is the same, old, tired tactic that not only Israelis have been using but it has been quite effective (on smaller scales), when it comes to other situations all along the political spectrum.

This move doesn't surprise me, at all. In fact, I'd be shocked if Israel didn't try to dehumanize and de-legitimize Palestine, at every turn.

Israel has learned well.



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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 5:22:34 AM   
Aibo


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Status: offline 		I agree with the previous post, this did not come as any surprise to me either.

As for the Palestinians wish to join ICC, they consider it extremely important after events that happened in the two invasions of Ghaza where the Israeli army clearly violated international treaties and even common sense. Such as the shooting up one kindergarten, where kids were present, in the last invasion.
And on the previous invasion, shelling and bombing of the very obviously marked Red cross child hospital, (which were run by the Danish said in case anyone want to check on the facts) more examples could be provided but I will not fill the space with those - those two are hair-raising enough by themselves anyhow.

So there we also see the reason why Israel do not wish to be part of ICC.
There is never only one to blame when two are fighting, as the saying goes.
But my sympathy for Israel did get a very serious hit when they deliberately went for that hospital.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 7:34:40 AM   
GoddessManko


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Status: offline 		I saw this and this is bad news for both nations. Israel's youth are more hawkish than their parents and politically active as well. Very different from the US where the older generation is typically more hawkish. Why? The incidents of violence we saw targeting young children in the Northern part of Israel. Both countries got frustrated with Bush's lack of action to preventing the violence and helping finish the job Clinton started by formulating a bilateral agreement. Under his presidency there was an "openness" to resolving the conflict from majority of both Israel and Palestine as Abbas and Olmert frequently had talks but they at the same time were under pressure from the hawkish elements in their government. For Olmert it was Ehud Barak, his defense minister at the time and for Abbas and the Fatah party it was of course Hamas and its factions which were working against any peaceful resolution by sending rockets into Israel. The actions on both sides by hawkish elements were of course for the current political tide we see. Israel became more hawkish and now has Netanyahu as a leader, and Palestine with the once regarded as an extremist group Hamas as the leaders of their country. Olmert and Abbas both forced to resign. Forging a peaceful resolution will prove to be more difficult than ever before with such individuals at the helm.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 9:25:02 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		vincent the way I see the situation is Israel believes the only reason for Palestine to follow this course is the attempt to bring charges against Israel in the International courts. This in an attempt to bypass direct negotiations and to sway world opinion. Otherwise nothing constructive can come from this and it will only put another roadblock to a permanent solution.

It is a nonsense scenario because there would also be a case against the Palestinians in indiscriminately showering Israel with missiles. So you could end up with charges against both sides with no real enforcement and just propaganda.

Now me personally I do not agree with Israel on retaliation. I do not see where this will help anything... it is just the continuation of tit for tat aggression either politically or militarily of both sides. But one thing for sure... it will further push both sides apart and that is why the US is against it for now in my opinion. I would bet that if there were a lasting peace agreement between theses adversaries there would be no opposition in the US.

Butch

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 9:50:51 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does anyone understand this curious turn of events?

Israel doesn't want a two-state solution?

Just a wild guess.

K.



I agree, and the settlement movement supports your observation. Israel talks the talk but walks in another direction. However, as a prelude to the Oslo negotiations Israel agreed to recognize the existence of a state of Palestine in return for the PLO's recognition of Israel's right to exist. The Oslo negotiations proceeded from that basis. So, that genii is long outta the bottle, although Israel has been trying to stuff him back in.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 9:55:03 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

It is a nonsense scenario because there would also be a case against the Palestinians in indiscriminately showering Israel with missiles. So you could end up with charges against both sides with no real enforcement and just propaganda.


Two things, Butch:

1. Depends on who you mean by the 'Palestinians.' I am not sure Hamas is represented in the current filings.

2. Even if Hamas is a party to the agreement, Israel is not, so would Israel have 'legal standing' to bring accusations against Palestine?

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 9:59:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Israel's youth are more hawkish than their parents and politically active as well.


I understand there is a very sizeable and active 'peace' contingency among the Israeli youth. I would be grateful for any numbers you have to support your statement.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 10:51:59 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Depends on who you mean by the 'Palestinians.' I am not sure Hamas is represented in the current filings.


Of course you have hit the nail on the head... Israel does not have one entity to deal with and the Palestinian authority has no control over Hamas that is constantly starting conflicts with Israel...So how could a world court represent them when they are not in control of their own soil?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/5/2015 11:22:34 AM >

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 11:07:20 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does anyone understand this curious turn of events?

Israel doesn't want a two-state solution?

Just a wild guess.

K.



I agree, and the settlement movement supports your observation. Israel talks the talk but walks in another direction. However, as a prelude to the Oslo negotiations Israel agreed to recognize the existence of a state of Palestine in return for the PLO's recognition of Israel's right to exist. The Oslo negotiations proceeded from that basis. So, that genii is long outta the bottle, although Israel has been trying to stuff him back in.



There's no need for "wild guess[es]" anymore. Israel has made its public position very clear - confirming long held suspicions that Israel has every intention of keeping the West Bank permanently and in the process nailing the final nails into the coffin of the Two State Solution (TSS).

Lest there be any doubt about Israel's rejection of the TSS, Israeli PM Netanyahoo made Israeli rejection of the TSS crystal clear in a statement delivered during the course of the last murderous Israeli attack on Gaza. As reported in the Times Of Israel, a media outlet close to Netanyahoo:
"“I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”
[snip ....]

Not relinquishing security control west of the Jordan, it should be emphasized, means not giving a Palestinian entity full sovereignty there. It means not acceding to Mahmoud Abbas’s demands, to Barack Obama’s demands, to the international community’s demands. This is not merely demanding a demilitarized Palestine; it is insisting upon ongoing Israeli security oversight inside and at the borders of the West Bank. That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state. A less-than-sovereign entity? Maybe, though this will never satisfy the Palestinians or the international community. A fully sovereign Palestine? Out of the question."

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz39qnjme59 (emphasis added)

So there you have it, straight as it were from the horse's mouth. Netanyahoo will never agree to any kind of sovereign Palestinian State based on the West Bank. Netanyahoo tells us in as many words that Israel has no intention of ever withdrawing from the West Bank - it wants the West Bank for itself and for keeps, preferably without its millions of indigenous Palestinian residents and land owners. Israel's 20 year pretence of negotiations with the Palestinians is exposed as just that - a meaningless charade conduced to pacify US demands and to provide cover for the ongoing illegal colonisation of the West Bank. Annexation/integration of the West Bank into Israel proper is the prime goal of current Israeli policy.

Viewed in this light, we can understand the critical importance of the settlement/colonisation project to Israel and why Israel is desperately trying to prevent anything from stopping or hindering its expansion. We can understand why Israel imposes its repugnant ethnic cleansing and apartheid on the Palestinians - it wants to drive them from their ancestral homelands. The stark naked illegality of the Israeli project is a cogent explanation for Israel's dread of being hauled before the ICC and forced to answer war crimes charges - Netanyahoo and all the other criminals in the organised crime enterprise aka the Israeli Govt know full well that there can only be one verdict - guilty - a verdict that will shatter what little standing Israel still has in the civilised world.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/5/2015 11:31:32 PM >

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/5/2015 11:18:29 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		I believe I heard that if Israel draws back from the West Bank, it puts the whole of Israel, within less than 2 minutes rocket-flight from what could be enemy territory. It gives them little or no chance to defend against rocket attacks. There again, maybe Hamas will stop firing rockets...............and maybe I will get that B.B. gun from Santa Claus that I asked for when I was eight.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 12:52:15 AM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		The most interesting Unanticipated Consequence of joining the ICC might be Palestinians charging Hamas and PLO leaders for the many corrupt practices of both, lethal intra-Palestine 'politics' and the general bloody-minded warfare the two have waged with each other and any supposed 'traitors', mostly over the bodies of the Palestine populace. Getting convictions for all this should be a slam dunk. No question, Crimes Against Humanity. What Middle Eastern Govt. isn't much the same? The Arab Spring was motivated by real and pervasive abuses.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 6:27:22 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does anyone understand this curious turn of events?

Israel doesn't want a two-state solution?

Just a wild guess.

K.



^ This.

I've heard the two sides don't care for each other...

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 7:39:50 AM   
GoddessManko


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From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Israel's youth are more hawkish than their parents and politically active as well.


I understand there is a very sizeable and active 'peace' contingency among the Israeli youth. I would be grateful for any numbers you have to support your statement.


http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/20/world/la-fg-obama-israel-youth-20130321

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 10:45:51 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Israel's youth are more hawkish than their parents and politically active as well.


I understand there is a very sizeable and active 'peace' contingency among the Israeli youth. I would be grateful for any numbers you have to support your statement.


http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/20/world/la-fg-obama-israel-youth-20130321

Thank you for the article. My take away is that Israeli imposed apartheid has been as successful as that imposed by the white governments of South Africa . . . until they no longer were.

quote:

Though his father has Palestinian friends in nearby Arab villages and at work, Polak has none, largely because of security checkpoints and the separation barrier built after the uprising a decade ago.
The parallel with SA seems pretty clear.

This was also revealing of the parochial ignorance of the young:

quote:

"I don't hate Palestinians," he said. "But I don't believe in a two-state solution. It just won't work." Like many his age, he says the best alternative is to continue allowing a degree of Palestinian autonomy, but only under Israeli military rule.


Reminds me of the American experience: "some of my best friends are black but I wouldn't want my sister to marry one." And, "the best alternative is to allow black Americans a degree of autonomy but only under white police rule. How's that working out? Would the young Israeli settle for anything less than separate toilets and drinking fountains? I wonder.

Several things are ignored in these "representative" comments of Israeli youth. Palestine was partitioned into two nations in 1947. The minority Israelis came away with the majority acreage. Nevertheless, two separate autonomous nations were mandated.

There is yet another alternative which causes many Israelis to wet their beds at night: the one state solution which would be neither Jewish nor Palestinian, but democratic.

In the meanwhile the colonial settlements continue to spread, road blocks choke Arab commerce, settlers destroy olive orchard yields, and Palestinians continue to scratch an impoverished living from the dirt.


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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 10:50:20 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

The most interesting Unanticipated Consequence of joining the ICC might be Palestinians charging Hamas and PLO leaders for the many corrupt practices of both, lethal intra-Palestine 'politics' and the general bloody-minded warfare the two have waged with each other and any supposed 'traitors', mostly over the bodies of the Palestine populace. Getting convictions for all this should be a slam dunk. No question, Crimes Against Humanity. What Middle Eastern Govt. isn't much the same? The Arab Spring was motivated by real and pervasive abuses.


I think you misunderstand the structure and purpose of the ICC. It is not meant to take the place of domestic judiciary. Hence the term "International" in its name.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 10:54:34 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I believe I heard that if Israel draws back from the West Bank, it puts the whole of Israel, within less than 2 minutes rocket-flight from what could be enemy territory. It gives them little or no chance to defend against rocket attacks. There again, maybe Hamas will stop firing rockets...............and maybe I will get that B.B. gun from Santa Claus that I asked for when I was eight.

Alternatively, Israel can erect castle walls and prevent the catapulting of buckets of burning oil over the ramparts. Oh wait. That did not work out so well in medieval Europe, did it?

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 10:58:11 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Depends on who you mean by the 'Palestinians.' I am not sure Hamas is represented in the current filings.


Of course you have hit the nail on the head... Israel does not have one entity to deal with and the Palestinian authority has no control over Hamas that is constantly starting conflicts with Israel...So how could a world court represent them when they are not in control of their own soil?

Butch

Actually, earlier in 2014, Hamas and the PA agreed to a merger of representation, provoking Netanyahu's attack on Gaza.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 12:30:57 PM   
GoddessManko


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From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline 		It's hard to label it as apartheid, Israel is a small country of misplaced people who dealt with a very massive tragedy in a post modern world and who have fought hard and accomplished recognition through their relentless desire to succeed. I would call what's going on more "cause and effect". Cannot fault people for saying "the sky is blue" rather than "the sky appears blue because all colors are diffused by oxygen and nitrogen, since blue has the shortest wavelength it's diffused ten times more". It is hard to think rationally when emotions run high. Hamas has had a hand in the current situation (and succeeded in getting the people's support) due to the bombings OKed by Ehud Barak on a massive scale during the Bush presidency when the leaders of both countries were doves. Netanyahu is not one to be messed with, at all. When people see their classmates and innocent people being targeted by one group and they are surrounded by malice, they are going to lose patience at some point. Some politicians on either side used that to their advantage.

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 1/6/2015 12:34:48 PM >

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