RE: 12 dead in Paris

RE: 12 dead in Paris (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 11:52:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub igor I believe you and I agree here somewhat that if a radical Christian group based in the US were throwing acid in little girls faces or shooting them in the head....and or....invading a school and murdering helpless little boys and girls... and or...setting bombs in subways killing hundreds...and or...cutting off the heads of journalists....and or... placing bombs on airplanes.... and or... sending suicide bombers into family restaurants...and or... setting off road side bombs... and or...blowing up buildings with thousands of people....There would be a tremendous uproar of not only Christian leaders but Christians themselves. This radical group would receive no aid or indifference from fellow Christians and within days would be pointed out and destroyed or captured. This is not happening in the Muslim world in my opinion... We are always talking of the tiny minority of Muslims that are radical... but what is also reality is there is but a tiny minority of Muslims willing to aggressively speak out and take action against the radicals among them. Butch Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? As a queer activist in the nineties I regular got hate mail from right wing Christians saying things along the lines that they prayed that I got raped. What made it even more obscene was that I was 15 at the time, and that was an easy to know fact. I was still on Westboro's list of website and queer advocates to attack. When Matthew Sheppard was killed radical Christians advocated that kind of violence. Where was the outrage of Christians when Christian radicals had hitlists on the internet for abortion doctors? Might I add with names crossed out. In fact most often when I would discuss these concerns with Christians it was written off that these radicals weren't really Christian, so not much needed to be done. Thankfully times have changed since that very very dark time, but not because there was an uprising of a majority of Christians. The closest we came to that was when Fall well blamed 9/11 on the gays. And most of the outrage to his statements wasn't directly towards the attacks being blamed on the GLBT. It was more about how evil the Taliban and jihadists were. What say you about the violent past of Christianity? The crusades come to mind. Christianity isn't an innocent religion, it has caused it's share of bloodshed, prejudice, and marginalization of people. Glass houses. That being said I think that radical Muslims are in no way justified for their actions. I do have extensive human rights concerns regarding Sharia Law. However, I have similar concerns about conservative Christians, particularly the quiverfull movement. Where girls are homeschooled and sheltered from main stream society and taught to believe that they are less than men, should always be subservient to men, that they should have no choice in who they are married to, and no choice in regards to child bearing. Oh and also they have to cover their bodies, are not allowed to wear pants, and are not allowed to cut their hair. Yet, even though I am not a Christian I KNOW this is not a common interpretation of scripture. I KNOW that Jesus was not an advocate of violence or prejudice. However, as it is with most people in a group when a minority strikes out an co-opts the groups principles, it is often a minority that speaks out or acts to end the behavior. So I don't fault Muslims who are coping with war and political upheaval in their own countries with not spending a whole lot of time or energy decrying the actions of radicals. They've got better things to do. There have been plenty of times where Christianity has been twisted for violent ends in peaceful Western countries and there was little to no outcry by the majority of Christians.

kdsub -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:07:18 PM)
quote: Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? This is as far as i got with your post because it is outrageously incorrect... If you had your eyes and ears open you would know the American outrage... what crap

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:17:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? This is as far as i got with your post because it is outrageously incorrect... If you had your eyes and ears open you would know the American outrage... what crap You eyes need to be opened to how this was not the case at all. There wasn't 0 support from Christians, but it was pretty hard to find open support and activism that countered the homophobia being perpetuated by radical Christians. And I am not saying that the majority of Christians advocated the violence, but no majority was present to even take the simplest measures to prevent it either. I live in a very blue state that couldn't get hate crimes towards the LBGT added to the hate crimes bill in the nineties. The few vocal churches carrying that torch did not get very far. And not reading the entire post is so telling, this is why people do not take action against the radicals in their own groups. Because they tell themselves that what they have done, even if it is nothing but disagreeing, is enough. Any contrary viewpoint is immediately dismissed.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:21:37 PM)
And to summarize my point, I can't think of any mainstream religion that is innocent of violence. Which to me means that religion isn't the problem. It is hatred and/or indifference to those who are different than ourselves. Which by the way is coded in our genes.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub igor I believe you and I agree here somewhat that if a radical Christian group based in the US were throwing acid in little girls faces or shooting them in the head....and or....invading a school and murdering helpless little boys and girls... and or...setting bombs in subways killing hundreds...and or...cutting off the heads of journalists....and or... placing bombs on airplanes.... and or... sending suicide bombers into family restaurants...and or... setting off road side bombs... and or...blowing up buildings with thousands of people....There would be a tremendous uproar of not only Christian leaders but Christians themselves. This radical group would receive no aid or indifference from fellow Christians and within days would be pointed out and destroyed or captured. This is not happening in the Muslim world in my opinion... We are always talking of the tiny minority of Muslims that are radical... but what is also reality is there is but a tiny minority of Muslims willing to aggressively speak out and take action against the radicals among them. Butch Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? As a queer activist in the nineties I regular got hate mail from right wing Christians saying things along the lines that they prayed that I got raped. What made it even more obscene was that I was 15 at the time, and that was an easy to know fact. I was still on Westboro's list of website and queer advocates to attack. When Matthew Sheppard was killed radical Christians advocated that kind of violence. Where was the outrage of Christians when Christian radicals had hitlists on the internet for abortion doctors? Might I add with names crossed out. In fact most often when I would discuss these concerns with Christians it was written off that these radicals weren't really Christian, so not much needed to be done. Thankfully times have changed since that very very dark time, but not because there was an uprising of a majority of Christians. The closest we came to that was when Fall well blamed 9/11 on the gays. And most of the outrage to his statements wasn't directly towards the attacks being blamed on the GLBT. It was more about how evil the Taliban and jihadists were. What say you about the violent past of Christianity? The crusades come to mind. Christianity isn't an innocent religion, it has caused it's share of bloodshed, prejudice, and marginalization of people. Glass houses. That being said I think that radical Muslims are in no way justified for their actions. I do have extensive human rights concerns regarding Sharia Law. However, I have similar concerns about conservative Christians, particularly the quiverfull movement. Where girls are homeschooled and sheltered from main stream society and taught to believe that they are less than men, should always be subservient to men, that they should have no choice in who they are married to, and no choice in regards to child bearing. Oh and also they have to cover their bodies, are not allowed to wear pants, and are not allowed to cut their hair. Yet, even though I am not a Christian I KNOW this is not a common interpretation of scripture. I KNOW that Jesus was not an advocate of violence or prejudice. However, as it is with most people in a group when a minority strikes out an co-opts the groups principles, it is often a minority that speaks out or acts to end the behavior. So I don't fault Muslims who are coping with war and political upheaval in their own countries with not spending a whole lot of time or energy decrying the actions of radicals. They've got better things to do. There have been plenty of times where Christianity has been twisted for violent ends in peaceful Western countries and there was little to no outcry by the majority of Christians. Wrong, Christians all over were outraged by both of the incidents. For example I was working a Christian supply store which supported my refusal to deal with them, and since I was the only representative for that area they were against to dealing with them. Never have I heard any Christian leader condoning murder. I do not know where you get your information, but it is wrong.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:26:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? This is as far as i got with your post because it is outrageously incorrect... If you had your eyes and ears open you would know the American outrage... what crap You eyes need to be opened to how this was not the case at all. There wasn't 0 support from Christians, but it was pretty hard to find open support and activism that countered the homophobia being perpetuated by radical Christians. And I am not saying that the majority of Christians advocated the violence, but no majority was present to even take the simplest measures to prevent it either. I live in a very blue state that couldn't get hate crimes towards the LBGT added to the hate crimes bill in the nineties. The few vocal churches carrying that torch did not get very far. And not reading the entire post is so telling, this is why people do not take action against the radicals in their own groups. Because they tell themselves that what they have done, even if it is nothing but disagreeing, is enough. Any contrary viewpoint is immediately dismissed. Westbrook was going to protest at a soldiers funeral near here. The sheriff informed them that A people here would take that real personally and would react violently B he wouldn't be able to spare any deputies to protect them He most likely won re-election that day (central Alabama)

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:29:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds And to summarize my point, I can't think of any mainstream religion that is innocent of violence. Which to me means that religion isn't the problem. It is hatred and/or indifference to those who are different than ourselves. Which by the way is coded in our genes. The Crusades were centuries ago, this was yesterday. Moral equivalence is another form of appeasement. It is often forgotten that the Crusades were a response to Islamic conquests, they didn't just come up with it out of the blue.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:32:12 PM)
Fallwell whether you like him or not was a "leader". Robertson was only a hair less full of vitriol and to many was considered a leader. There is a difference between not supporting a group, and actually doing something to stop them. So what you wouldn't open into a business agreement with them. Plenty of mosques actively refuse to do business with their more radical counterparts. Especially muslims in the western world. Active campaigns to shut down radical Christian hitlist websites would have been totally awesome in the nineties. I would have been so much safer, and so thankful. Yet, that didn't happen. Hate crime bills didn't get passed. And my point in all this is not that Christians are bad. I think Christianity is at heart a beautiful religion full of good intentions. I actively support individuals who seek fellowship in Christian communities, and use their faith as a core tool and part of their recovery. I also feel the same about Islam. There are bad ideologues in both religions, and at times complacency in both. Social change always has been and always will be slow.

epiphiny43 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:32:56 PM)
Shitty soldiers? Basically unorganized 'rag-tag' militia groups forced both the USSR and the USA to 'declare victory and go home' in Afghanistan? Both empires saw the writing on the wall and decided to stop the drain. Conscript armies have folded before precision munitions and all the other advantages a truly modern fighting force brings to a well planned assault. Syrian Army groups have endured a bad supply situation and multiple opponents to survive and succeed far beyond most military observers expectations. To be really fair, most Muslims live in societies that are seriously repressive and the majority keep their heads down on Any issue of consequence. Those with the ability and opportunity to emigrate don't suddenly become empowered to speak out by a greater society that usually is unhappy they are there. On many issues the various Muslim groups and Third World people in general may actually agree with the grievances of the violent Jihadist and other radical fringe; they don't like the methods, the huge collateral damage or the excuse that gives reactionary forces to pursue their agendas. And hate being innocent victims of both sides to conflicts they see doing only harm to all. No amount of press releases or public statements will have any effect on either the terrorists or the forces organizing against them so discretion if not realistic survival fears are how they react. As any parent normally does! Going on record that local groups who are using car bombs and AK47s to make their points are wrong and evil isn't doing your kids a favor? The massive population of disaffected and largely unemployed youth in both the Muslim world and in the West are remarkably easy to radicalize with the lack of real options to change their world other ways. The constant work to increase wealth inequality by those in charge in both West and the authoritarian states elsewhere is as shortsighted as human conduct gets. Real progress is slow, largely invisible and difficult to see as creating anything better. Assault rifles and IEDs change things in seconds, education and building human economic and political relationships takes generations. The tensions within Islam are millennia old and the hatred and prejudices are often more a problem than between Islam and the West. It's a general cluster fuck and people holding out simple solutions are only self-identifying as Remarkably simple people.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:35:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? This is as far as i got with your post because it is outrageously incorrect... If you had your eyes and ears open you would know the American outrage... what crap You eyes need to be opened to how this was not the case at all. There wasn't 0 support from Christians, but it was pretty hard to find open support and activism that countered the homophobia being perpetuated by radical Christians. And I am not saying that the majority of Christians advocated the violence, but no majority was present to even take the simplest measures to prevent it either. I live in a very blue state that couldn't get hate crimes towards the LBGT added to the hate crimes bill in the nineties. The few vocal churches carrying that torch did not get very far. And not reading the entire post is so telling, this is why people do not take action against the radicals in their own groups. Because they tell themselves that what they have done, even if it is nothing but disagreeing, is enough. Any contrary viewpoint is immediately dismissed. Westbrook was going to protest at a soldiers funeral near here. The sheriff informed them that A people here would take that real personally and would react violently B he wouldn't be able to spare any deputies to protect them He most likely won re-election that day (central Alabama) Today that is thankfully the outcome, which I have already stated. Today it is a majority. And it is awesome and crucial that people increasingly took a stand along the way. My point is that it is a slow process. It is a human process.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:37:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds Fallwell whether you like him or not was a "leader". Robertson was only a hair less full of vitriol and to many was considered a leader. There is a difference between not supporting a group, and actually doing something to stop them. So what you wouldn't open into a business agreement with them. Plenty of mosques actively refuse to do business with their more radical counterparts. Especially muslims in the western world. Active campaigns to shut down radical Christian hitlist websites would have been totally awesome in the nineties. I would have been so much safer, and so thankful. Yet, that didn't happen. Hate crime bills didn't get passed. And my point in all this is not that Christians are bad. I think Christianity is at heart a beautiful religion full of good intentions. I actively support individuals who seek fellowship in Christian communities, and use their faith as a core tool and part of their recovery. I also feel the same about Islam. There are bad ideologues in both religions, and at times complacency in both. Social change always has been and always will be slow. You might be unaware of this but shutting down their websites would have been unconstitutional. You don't go to their website, you make fun of them, which everyone did.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds Fallwell whether you like him or not was a "leader". Robertson was only a hair less full of vitriol and to many was considered a leader. There is a difference between not supporting a group, and actually doing something to stop them. So what you wouldn't open into a business agreement with them. Plenty of mosques actively refuse to do business with their more radical counterparts. Especially muslims in the western world. Active campaigns to shut down radical Christian hitlist websites would have been totally awesome in the nineties. I would have been so much safer, and so thankful. Yet, that didn't happen. Hate crime bills didn't get passed. And my point in all this is not that Christians are bad. I think Christianity is at heart a beautiful religion full of good intentions. I actively support individuals who seek fellowship in Christian communities, and use their faith as a core tool and part of their recovery. I also feel the same about Islam. There are bad ideologues in both religions, and at times complacency in both. Social change always has been and always will be slow. Hate crime is thought crime, it is crime based on what a person is thinking. If they have committed a real crime get them for it. People didn't opposed hate crime laws because they supported hate crimes but they opposed the concept of thought crimes. Which to get back to the subject is exactly what happened yesterday, they were punishing the French journalists not for what they did but for what they thought.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:41:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: epiphiny43 Shitty soldiers? Basically unorganized 'rag-tag' militia groups forced both the USSR and the USA to 'declare victory and go home' in Afghanistan? Both empires saw the writing on the wall and decided to stop the drain. Conscript armies have folded before precision munitions and all the other advantages a truly modern fighting force brings to a well planned assault. Syrian Army groups have endured a bad supply situation and multiple opponents to survive and succeed far beyond most military observers expectations. To be really fair, most Muslims live in societies that are seriously repressive and the majority keep their heads down on Any issue of consequence. Those with the ability and opportunity to emigrate don't suddenly become empowered to speak out by a greater society that usually is unhappy they are there. On many issues the various Muslim groups and Third World people in general may actually agree with the grievances of the violent Jihadist and other radical fringe; they don't like the methods, the huge collateral damage or the excuse that gives reactionary forces to pursue their agendas. And hate being innocent victims of both sides to conflicts they see doing only harm to all. No amount of press releases or public statements will have any effect on either the terrorists or the forces organizing against them so discretion if not realistic survival fears are how they react. As any parent normally does! Going on record that local groups who are using car bombs and AK47s to make their points are wrong and evil isn't doing your kids a favor? The massive population of disaffected and largely unemployed youth in both the Muslim world and in the West are remarkably easy to radicalize with the lack of real options to change their world other ways. The constant work to increase wealth inequality by those in charge in both West and the authoritarian states elsewhere is as shortsighted as human conduct gets. Real progress is slow, largely invisible and difficult to see as creating anything better. Assault rifles and IEDs change things in seconds, education and building human economic and political relationships takes generations. The tensions within Islam are millennia old and the hatred and prejudices are often more a problem than between Islam and the West. It's a general cluster fuck and people holding out simple solutions are only self-identifying as Remarkably simple people. This. I also add that we have plenty of our own problems, in the US in particular, we tend to act out more aggressively as a society. Fun fact: the first police officer killed in the UK in seven years was killed by an American. While this incident of radical Islamist terrorism in France, a lot of the poison in the well in Western vs Middle East relations has come from the US.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:44:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds Fallwell whether you like him or not was a "leader". Robertson was only a hair less full of vitriol and to many was considered a leader. There is a difference between not supporting a group, and actually doing something to stop them. So what you wouldn't open into a business agreement with them. Plenty of mosques actively refuse to do business with their more radical counterparts. Especially muslims in the western world. Active campaigns to shut down radical Christian hitlist websites would have been totally awesome in the nineties. I would have been so much safer, and so thankful. Yet, that didn't happen. Hate crime bills didn't get passed. And my point in all this is not that Christians are bad. I think Christianity is at heart a beautiful religion full of good intentions. I actively support individuals who seek fellowship in Christian communities, and use their faith as a core tool and part of their recovery. I also feel the same about Islam. There are bad ideologues in both religions, and at times complacency in both. Social change always has been and always will be slow. Hate crime is thought crime, it is crime based on what a person is thinking. If they have committed a real crime get them for it. People didn't opposed hate crime laws because they supported hate crimes but they opposed the concept of thought crimes. Which to get back to the subject is exactly what happened yesterday, they were punishing the French journalists not for what they did but for what they thought. Hate crime laws weren't for thought crimes, they were for physical crimes. Just as different factors nationwide impact the sentence for a murder, if hate was a factor that was to be considered also. AND many states had hate crime laws already on the books, they just wouldn't add LBGT to the current law.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 12:48:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds Fallwell whether you like him or not was a "leader". Robertson was only a hair less full of vitriol and to many was considered a leader. There is a difference between not supporting a group, and actually doing something to stop them. So what you wouldn't open into a business agreement with them. Plenty of mosques actively refuse to do business with their more radical counterparts. Especially muslims in the western world. Active campaigns to shut down radical Christian hitlist websites would have been totally awesome in the nineties. I would have been so much safer, and so thankful. Yet, that didn't happen. Hate crime bills didn't get passed. And my point in all this is not that Christians are bad. I think Christianity is at heart a beautiful religion full of good intentions. I actively support individuals who seek fellowship in Christian communities, and use their faith as a core tool and part of their recovery. I also feel the same about Islam. There are bad ideologues in both religions, and at times complacency in both. Social change always has been and always will be slow. You might be unaware of this but shutting down their websites would have been unconstitutional. You don't go to their website, you make fun of them, which everyone did. It isn't free speech to advocate for violence to specific individuals, which is what these websites did. There is difference in publishing a hitlist, and having hate towards a particular group advocated on a website. I would never advocate having a hate website taken down, that's free speech. Having a hit list with personal information of individuals, which these sites did, is a crime.

CreativeDominant -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 1:08:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub igor I believe you and I agree here somewhat that if a radical Christian group based in the US were throwing acid in little girls faces or shooting them in the head....and or....invading a school and murdering helpless little boys and girls... and or...setting bombs in subways killing hundreds...and or...cutting off the heads of journalists....and or... placing bombs on airplanes.... and or... sending suicide bombers into family restaurants...and or... setting off road side bombs... and or...blowing up buildings with thousands of people....There would be a tremendous uproar of not only Christian leaders but Christians themselves. This radical group would receive no aid or indifference from fellow Christians and within days would be pointed out and destroyed or captured. This is not happening in the Muslim world in my opinion... We are always talking of the tiny minority of Muslims that are radical... but what is also reality is there is but a tiny minority of Muslims willing to aggressively speak out and take action against the radicals among them. Butch Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? As a queer activist in the nineties I regular got hate mail from right wing Christians saying things along the lines that they prayed that I got raped. What made it even more obscene was that I was 15 at the time, and that was an easy to know fact. I was still on Westboro's list of website and queer advocates to attack. When Matthew Sheppard was killed radical Christians advocated that kind of violence The Westboro Baptist Church: Openly denounced by, and not affiliated with. The two largest Baptist denominations, the Baptist World Alliance and the Southern Baptist convention. Also denounced by the United Methodists ( go us! ), the Evangelical Alliance, etc.. Spoken out against by such Christian, conservative folk as Bill O'Reilly. Defended by such liberal advocates as the ACLU and the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. oh...and the U. S. Supreme Court. As for Matthew Shepard, what...specific...radical Christian groups advocated violence against gays? I have heard preaching against the "sin of homosexuality" but I've not heard "ye must go out and kill the gays in the most dramatic ways possible".

Musicmystery -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 1:19:25 PM)
Gosh, you mean the ACLU is actually not a "liberal" group, but actually one devoted to defending the Bill of Rights? Imagine. And ya know, the SC doesn't "defend" anybody...they match case to Constitution.

MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 1:36:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: most of the middle east are just ordinary people being traumatised pawns in warfare fought for objectives they don't share, for religion they'd prefer to ignore, This is simply not true...Show me where in the Middle east or anywhere else where Islam has a foothold they would prefer to ignore their religion.... You are broadcasting your way of thinking on them and it is blatantly false and dangerous. Butch Dangerous to who? me? my son? my family? You have never walked in my shoes Butch. You have no idea about my history in Iran so don't preach to me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. You really believe that all Muslims want to follow Sunni? If that was the case there would be no warfare in the middle east.

CreativeDominant -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 1:42:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Gosh, you mean the ACLU is actually not a "liberal" group, but actually one devoted to defending the Bill of Rights? Imagine. And ya know, the SC doesn't "defend" anybody...they match case to Constitution. No, the ACLU group is a pick and choose organization who...in the great majority, though not the totality...of their causes, seem to pick the side abhorrent to most Americans. Does that mean they're wrong? No. Does it mean they are great at finding loopholes? Yes, in many cases. As for the SCOTUS, my mistake on the wording. Perhaps upheld or supported Phelps and the WBC's position would have been a better choice.

Musicmystery -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 1:46:22 PM)
Well then, they aren't liberal or conservative, but a group who helps "the side abhorrent to most Americans" by defending their Constitutional rights. You know, that document everyone loves to wave about except when it's not convenient.

Page: << < prev 9 10 [11] 12 13 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625