RE: 12 dead in Paris

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Politesub53 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 5:36:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why is not the thread morbid enough for you? Do you not see how ridiculous you and tweak sound on this thread after the way you spewed your poor tortured soul bullshit on the previous murderers thread? It is hard not to laugh at the outlandishness and hypocrisy of it all. If one murderer is nuts... why should not two...or three. But... rant away my friend I made my point many posts ago... if you objected you should have posted then... for me it is over. Butch I last posted about this time yesterday, way before your posts re mental illness. It isnt encumbent on me to stay awake tweyfour hours a day just incase you spout something stupid (or worse) Your point about morbid would be the whole reason for my post, it is a morbid event so I did take umbrage at your "Just having fun" comment (Quickly deleted by you) As for the bullshit about the killings and the dig at Tweakable and myself....... What planet are you fucking on, are you so blinkered that you cant tell the difference between a random attack, like the one by the cat swinging guy in the UK, and a military style attack with AK47s ?

Politesub53 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 5:43:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I see you were quick on the edit where you had stated you were just having fun. I am glad you finally cottoned on. Check the time stamp... you did not read it before posting ...but yes I did change it... I see the error of my ways now and then. Dont be so fucking stupid, if I didnt read it, how the fuck would I know you had posted it. FFS can I read minds now or are you claiming I didnt see what you admit to have edited ? Incase anyone is interested, I was in the process of quoting Butch`s post, he altered it as I was typing my post, which inturn must have altered the quote part. My guess is that was due to me not having finished typing so not having been quick enough to have posted the original quote.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 5:45:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub igor I believe you and I agree here somewhat that if a radical Christian group based in the US were throwing acid in little girls faces or shooting them in the head....and or....invading a school and murdering helpless little boys and girls... and or...setting bombs in subways killing hundreds...and or...cutting off the heads of journalists....and or... placing bombs on airplanes.... and or... sending suicide bombers into family restaurants...and or... setting off road side bombs... and or...blowing up buildings with thousands of people....There would be a tremendous uproar of not only Christian leaders but Christians themselves. This radical group would receive no aid or indifference from fellow Christians and within days would be pointed out and destroyed or captured. This is not happening in the Muslim world in my opinion... We are always talking of the tiny minority of Muslims that are radical... but what is also reality is there is but a tiny minority of Muslims willing to aggressively speak out and take action against the radicals among them. Butch Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? As a queer activist in the nineties I regular got hate mail from right wing Christians saying things along the lines that they prayed that I got raped. What made it even more obscene was that I was 15 at the time, and that was an easy to know fact. I was still on Westboro's list of website and queer advocates to attack. You realize you're equating getting hate E-mail with actual terrorist acts, right? While I realize that getting threatening messages at 15 must have been uncomfortable, it's really not quite the same as getting acid thrown in your face. Advocating violence isn't doing violence. 9/11 wouldn't have been the same if the terrorists had just been advocating flying planes into buildings and sending out nasty messages about it.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 5:51:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why is not the thread morbid enough for you? Do you not see how ridiculous you and tweak sound on this thread after the way you spewed your poor tortured soul bullshit on the previous murderers thread? It is hard not to laugh at the outlandishness and hypocrisy of it all. If one murderer is nuts... why should not two...or three. But... rant away my friend I made my point many posts ago... if you objected you should have posted then... for me it is over. Butch I thought the tone seemed different.

kdsub -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 6:01:11 PM)
Now now... don't have a stroke... everything will be alright... breath... breath

Aylee -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 9:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: epiphiny43 Shitty soldiers? Basically unorganized 'rag-tag' militia groups forced both the USSR and the USA to 'declare victory and go home' in Afghanistan? Both empires saw the writing on the wall and decided to stop the drain. Conscript armies have folded before precision munitions and all the other advantages a truly modern fighting force brings to a well planned assault. Syrian Army groups have endured a bad supply situation and multiple opponents to survive and succeed far beyond most military observers expectations. To be really fair, most Muslims live in societies that are seriously repressive and the majority keep their heads down on Any issue of consequence. Those with the ability and opportunity to emigrate don't suddenly become empowered to speak out by a greater society that usually is unhappy they are there. On many issues the various Muslim groups and Third World people in general may actually agree with the grievances of the violent Jihadist and other radical fringe; they don't like the methods, the huge collateral damage or the excuse that gives reactionary forces to pursue their agendas. And hate being innocent victims of both sides to conflicts they see doing only harm to all. No amount of press releases or public statements will have any effect on either the terrorists or the forces organizing against them so discretion if not realistic survival fears are how they react. As any parent normally does! Going on record that local groups who are using car bombs and AK47s to make their points are wrong and evil isn't doing your kids a favor? The massive population of disaffected and largely unemployed youth in both the Muslim world and in the West are remarkably easy to radicalize with the lack of real options to change their world other ways. The constant work to increase wealth inequality by those in charge in both West and the authoritarian states elsewhere is as shortsighted as human conduct gets. Real progress is slow, largely invisible and difficult to see as creating anything better. Assault rifles and IEDs change things in seconds, education and building human economic and political relationships takes generations. The tensions within Islam are millennia old and the hatred and prejudices are often more a problem than between Islam and the West. It's a general cluster fuck and people holding out simple solutions are only self-identifying as Remarkably simple people. They still make shitty soldiers.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 10:28:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub igor I believe you and I agree here somewhat that if a radical Christian group based in the US were throwing acid in little girls faces or shooting them in the head....and or....invading a school and murdering helpless little boys and girls... and or...setting bombs in subways killing hundreds...and or...cutting off the heads of journalists....and or... placing bombs on airplanes.... and or... sending suicide bombers into family restaurants...and or... setting off road side bombs... and or...blowing up buildings with thousands of people....There would be a tremendous uproar of not only Christian leaders but Christians themselves. This radical group would receive no aid or indifference from fellow Christians and within days would be pointed out and destroyed or captured. This is not happening in the Muslim world in my opinion... We are always talking of the tiny minority of Muslims that are radical... but what is also reality is there is but a tiny minority of Muslims willing to aggressively speak out and take action against the radicals among them. Butch Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? As a queer activist in the nineties I regular got hate mail from right wing Christians saying things along the lines that they prayed that I got raped. What made it even more obscene was that I was 15 at the time, and that was an easy to know fact. I was still on Westboro's list of website and queer advocates to attack. You realize you're equating getting hate E-mail with actual terrorist acts, right? While I realize that getting threatening messages at 15 must have been uncomfortable, it's really not quite the same as getting acid thrown in your face. Advocating violence isn't doing violence. 9/11 wouldn't have been the same if the terrorists had just been advocating flying planes into buildings and sending out nasty messages about it. In my case it was thankfully just e-mail, they eventually found my city, but thankfully never my name or address. And no matter what it was still illegal and promoting violence. In fact in my case many of them contained direct threats, along with various phishing tactics to try and get my name and/or address. Beyond westboro, Falwell eventually admitted that his statements and actions regarding LBGT issues could be seen as a justification of violence. Similar groups directed at abortion, doctors actually died. Clinics have been bombed. The US government counts this as terrorism. My personal experience is not equal to what happened in France. However, it is still vile, and points to how religion is used to cross the line, and in the case of anti-abortion christian radicals, the death toll and groups responsible are more clearly known.

tweakabelle -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/8/2015 11:49:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I read this from spiegel the other day, its from march of 2014 http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/islamophobic-hate-groups-become-more-prominent-in-germany-a-956801.html la monde had another one, on anti muslim attacks but I cant find the link now,dammit.... Yes I take your point. Europe has seen a regrettable rise in the popularity of extreme right wing parties for some time now. No doubt these nuts will be emboldened by this latest outrage, and seek to exploit public anger for their own devious ends. However I am encouraged by the reaction of the vast majority of people in Europe and here in Australia - we condemned the actions of the extremists while highlighting our own values of tolerance and diversity. It has taken some time for people to mobilise to resist the Far Right's attempts to hijack the debate but I see signs that people everywhere are sick of these racist thugs purporting to speak in their name and spread their hate. While there are no grounds for complacency, I can only see this reaction against both Islamist extremists and our own home grown Far Right extremists growing with time and becoming more powerful.

NorthernGent -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 3:36:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: LiveSpark Savage, cowardly and despicable yes. But we don't know for sure they are extremist "muslims", they are masked with no identifiable features. While they may be extremists it could also be the work of people looking to make muslims look bad and fan the flames of hatred. Only time will tell when they are caught. Just a coincidence that the newspaper that got shot up practiced free speech, and published cartoons critical of Islam then Not quite free speech. In the past, they have called for a ban on the French National Front. They're another one of those organisations that believe in liberty, conditional on political affiliation.

NorthernGent -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 3:42:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I just read about the hard time Cartoonists have in Turkey -- and in general about the censorship worries of authors around the world. Islamic Extremists hate free speech. This will probably accelerate the anti-immigration waves sweeping over Europe. In terms of Terrorism as a means of controlling what other people publish, it works. It worked in the wake of the Danish cartoons as while publications around Europe insisted they would not be press-ganged into excluding certain articles from their publications, no one had the courage to re-publish the cartoons. Regarding the anti-immigration waves, that's a touch dramatic, I wouldn't call it a wave in England but rather a consistent pattern of rational thought.

GoddessManko -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 3:58:11 AM)
First of all, one in SIX people are muslim. Only 15% of them reside in the Middle East, numbers are important. There's also this. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/average-mohamed-counters-terror-message-cartoon-videos-28047361 To add, there is unfortunately a hostage standoff currently happening between the suspects and authorities. These men are selfish, ruthless and do not represent 1 billion people + who are muslim.

NorthernGent -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 3:58:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 "Attempting to mediate relations between free people and Islam will not work. Islam either has to get on board with the whole freedom of speech thing or it cannot participate in pluralistic western democracies. It’s as simple as that. "And the state authorities in Canada and the United Kingdom — some guy in Yorkshire was just arrested by police because he tossed a Koran in a toilet. (…) Sounds hard to believe this Yorkshire thing, but who knows. Islam is on board with freedom of speech in the sense that muslims (in England) live according to the laws of our land. That much is clear. Having said that, there clearly is a problem but let's keep it rational: a quick reckon up and by my estimate 0.001% of muslims living in England have engaged in terrorist activities. This is hardly cause for a grand statement to the effect that muslims do not 'participate' in our democracy. The problem is a very small, destructive minority and I'd love to hear a solution as to how these people are weeded out without damaging the interests of the 99.999% of muslims who live here by the laws of our land, otherwise it will be a case of mob rule with law abiding muslims being cast as 'the enemy within'. And, that is why our 'leaders' are loathe to demonise an entire religion: their job/s certainly doesn't involve promoting mob rule and pandering to grand, sweeping statements lacking any basis in reality such as 'muslims aren't on board with democracy'.

NorthernGent -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 4:13:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Bama you will not find me among those that think just because millions of Muslims are peaceful this absolves them of all responsibility of these terrorists acts. I personally think Islam in general by its very nature and teachings breeds terrorism more so then other religions. But i will not blame the vast majority of Muslims for the specific acts of terrorists. But what I believe, and will take the heat for, is my belief that peaceful Muslims do not do enough to stamp out radicals in their religion. Radicalism cannot exist on the scale it has manifested itself today without help, indifference and denial of responsibility by the leaders of the religion. Butch I agree that if more peace loving Muslims would speak out against the radicals it would help to keep the terrorist attacks under some degree of control. But Muslims living in the Middle East, and those that have immigrated from there have lived for many years knowing, or at least believing, that if they speak out against the radicals their lives, and the lives of their families will quite likely be targeted. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that is why more of them don't speak out, and living with that kind of fear, I could understand their silence. Nonsense. The Muslim Council of Britain, and other groups, have repeatedly spoken out against the sort of actions in the OP. Do you want them to go around knocking on everyone's door personally apologising? It may be worth remembering that the 99.9% of muslims who do not engage in terrorist activities are not responsible for the destructive minority simply because they also happen to be muslim. An age-old cornerstone of democracy is the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. I think muslim leaders should not have to speak out against the destructive minority, and also they're making a collective rod for their own backs as each time they 'speak out' it lends a hand towards them somehow being partly responsible, when any reasonable person would say that you are not responsible for the actions of a murderer simply because you share the same religion.

Sanity -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 4:48:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The problem is a very small, destructive minority and I'd love to hear a solution as to how these people are weeded out without damaging the interests of the 99.999% of muslims who live here by the laws of our land, otherwise it will be a case of mob rule with law abiding muslims being cast as 'the enemy within'. Why is it up to outside powers to "weed them out" not just at your local level but internationally, as well The Muslim community knows who the "very small, destructive minority" are yet the "very small, destructive minority" attacks at will, destroying schools, villages and "cleansing" entire nations of "nonbelievers" as they please Token disapproval on the part of "moderate Muslims" is nice, but something more would be more nice

NorthernGent -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 5:02:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Why is it up to outside powers to "weed them out" not just at your local level but internationally At my local level, in England murderers and would-be murderers don't always give themselves up to justice, and so we have a police force and legal system charged with administering matters of murder (weeding them out). By extension, neither do we assume it is the reponsibility of some bloke down the street to apprehend or account for some other bloke three streets away, the religion to which these two blokes adhere is deemed to be irrelevant when passing judgement on the term 'aiding and abetting'.

Sanity -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 5:08:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Why is it up to outside powers to "weed them out" not just at your local level but internationally At my local level, in England murderers and would-be murderers don't always give themselves up to justice, and so we have a police force and legal system charged with administering matters of murder (weeding them out). By extension, neither do we assume it is the reponsibility of some bloke down the street to apprehend or account for some other bloke three streets away, the religion to which these two blokes adhere is deemed to be irrelevant when passing judgement on the term 'aiding and abetting'. Theyre not the same as random ordinary murderers, they proudly preach their deadly ideology to all who will listen They are not by their nature secretive, they are fanatical

bounty44 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 5:17:32 AM)
something everyone misses when the discussion is primarily centered on extreme acts of violence is the notion that islam and western civilization are incompatible with each other. Europe is already well on it's way to becoming West Saudi Arabia, and the USA is next.

MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 5:21:28 AM)
As we talk, five people have just been taken hostage at a kosher grocery in Eastern Paris

Lucylastic -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 5:22:05 AM)
all muslims know who the all baddies are? wow they are all knowing too Cos you cant even speak who is a destructive in your own part of the world denial and ignorance is strong, even in "western technology.

Lucylastic -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 5:24:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 something everyone misses when the discussion is primarily centered on extreme acts of violence is the notion that islam and western civilization are incompatible with each other. Europe is already well on it's way to becoming West Saudi Arabia, and the USA is next. it is?? really, got some proof for that or even a hint of proof ?

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