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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:35:44 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


I do not think that I have ever advocated "spray and pray," which IS the Islamic culture's method of firearm use. Inshallah is not my method of accomplishing things either. Which is another issue with Islamic culture and their soldiers (which is actually the reason behind "spray and pray"."


Interestingly the science disagrees with you. According to people who have actually studied this phenomena, rather than simply rely on ultra-nationalist news outlets such as Fox and the rest, religion is a negative predictor of terrorism in individuals. Indeed over the past two decades the biggest terrorist group has been a secular organization with a great deal of atheists as members. The Tamil Tigers, inventors of the belt bomb.

However, as they've never targeted wealthy white people living in the USA or Europe most people have never heard of them.



The fact that an organization is not based on religious ideologies does not automatically make it an "atheist" organization. The Tamil cause was an ethnopolitical one... there were, to my knowledge, no atheist ideologies involved.

Perhaps you meant secular, which might possibly be slightly more accurate.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:40:06 PM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

And this has to do with military troop training and tactics how?

Or the topic?


The contention is that this terrorism is mired in Islam.

The science says that it isn't.

If you can't see the relevance of what motivates modern Arabs to commit terrorist acts when discussing why terrorists don't like X or Y then best of luck to you.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:41:58 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet, you insist they're mired in the 7th century.

You'll have to decide which at some point, if you want to pretend logic.


Their ideology is mired in the seventh century

Its the ideology, stupid



Ah, so if that's the case - to re-ask the question that you dodged earlier - how would you explain the billions of Muslims who live amongst Christians and others and, rather than slay them, and stuff, sort of get on with them, live and work with them, and that kind of thing? Or would such people not, in fact, be 'Muslims' in your book, by definition?



Would Syria be a good example of one of these places?

Or Paris?

Or Manhattan.

I could go on all day...


Paris and Manhattan would indeed be good examples. Syria is a bit difficult, of course, because there you have mostly Muslims giving grief to other Muslims.

What percentage of Muslims in Manhattan or Paris, do you think, have *not*, ever, in their lives, followed any of the alleged dictates in the Koran to kill or even persecute their non-Muslim neighbours, friends or workmates? I have a feeling it's actually quite high. In Paris, it's all of them, bar - what, three, four?

I think the way it works, Sanity, is the entirety of what constitutes someone's ideology is not reducible to his or her religion. Not even the most Christian of Christians in the USA could say that. He's likely to be a capitalist or a socialist; a believer in the free market or not; this kind of social culture or that; and so forth. So why would a Muslim be any different? You don't reduce everyone describing himself as a Christian to what it says in the Bible - so why would you do that with any given Muslim re the Koran?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/15/2015 2:42:52 PM >

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:42:38 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet, you insist they're mired in the 7th century.

You'll have to decide which at some point, if you want to pretend logic.


Now come on... surely you can't be making the argument that if people use modern weapons, their ideologies cannot be mired in antiquity?

That is not a good argument with which to challenge someone else's power of logic.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:47:39 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
You don't reduce everyone describing himself as a Christian to what it says in the Bible - so why would you do that with any given Muslim re the Koran?


Theres your problem

You are arguing against your own pitifully poor straw man construct of my position

My argument is that the Islamic ideology is at issue. I have never written anything about "any given Muslim"

And Christians are being crucified and buried alive in Syria, with the girls being auctioned off as sex slaves







< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/15/2015 2:49:51 PM >

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:50:45 PM   
Bhruic


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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet, you insist they're mired in the 7th century.

You'll have to decide which at some point, if you want to pretend logic.


Their ideology is mired in the seventh century

Its the ideology, stupid



Ah, so if that's the case - to re-ask the question that you dodged earlier - how would you explain the billions of Muslims who live amongst Christians and others and, rather than slay them, and stuff, sort of get on with them, live and work with them, and that kind of thing? Or would such people not, in fact, be 'Muslims' in your book, by definition?



I would explain it this way... The vast majority of people of any faith do not follow the dogma and doctrines of their faith to the letter, but cherry pick what is convenient for them and, to some extent, the society around them.

For most people, religion is a social caste more than a system of belief... that is why so many of the "faithful" have not even read the holy books of their faith, or understand the scope of what they are meant to actually believe.

It's a social club, and the true believers or "fanatics", are often an embarrassment.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:52:48 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

It's a social club, and the true believers or "fanatics", are often an embarrassment.


With Islam it is often the case that they are the bus drivers or the herdsmen







< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/15/2015 2:54:53 PM >

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:56:57 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
You don't reduce everyone describing himself as a Christian to what it says in the Bible - so why would you do that with any given Muslim re the Koran?


Theres your problem

You are arguing against your own pitifully poor straw man construct of my position

My argument is that the Islamic ideology is at issue. I have never written anything about "any given Muslim"

And Christians are being crucified and buried alive in Syria, with the girls being auctioned off as sex slaves


But as I previously stated, an ideology isn't just a body of ideas (such as is contained in the Koran or the Bible), it's about the people who hold those ideas. And those people always hold ideas other than those of either the Koran or the Bible (Das Kapital, or anything written by Hayek or Freeman, etc, etc, etc). It makes no sense to talk about 'the ideology' without referring to the people who (you) claim to hold that ideology, too.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:58:22 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I would explain it this way... The vast majority of people of any faith do not follow the dogma and doctrines of their faith to the letter, but cherry pick what is convenient for them and, to some extent, the society around them.

For most people, religion is a social caste more than a system of belief... that is why so many of the "faithful" have not even read the holy books of their faith, or understand the scope of what they are meant to actually believe.

It's a social club, and the true believers or "fanatics", are often an embarrassment.


Yep. Exactly.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 2:58:40 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nope, its on track, both Islam and Judaism share the old testament, and all its ideology.


Only Islam still follows Leviticus 24:16 though (see the 12 dead in Paris thread for more details)




May I see your bona fides of expertise vis a vis the Jewish religion?

What bona fides ? What expertise ?
Thats Sanity you are responding to...he doesn't even know what either of those are

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:04:32 PM   
Staleek


Posts: 361
Joined: 6/1/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


I do not think that I have ever advocated "spray and pray," which IS the Islamic culture's method of firearm use. Inshallah is not my method of accomplishing things either. Which is another issue with Islamic culture and their soldiers (which is actually the reason behind "spray and pray"."


Interestingly the science disagrees with you. According to people who have actually studied this phenomena, rather than simply rely on ultra-nationalist news outlets such as Fox and the rest, religion is a negative predictor of terrorism in individuals. Indeed over the past two decades the biggest terrorist group has been a secular organization with a great deal of atheists as members. The Tamil Tigers, inventors of the belt bomb.

However, as they've never targeted wealthy white people living in the USA or Europe most people have never heard of them.



The fact that an organization is not based on religious ideologies does not automatically make it an "atheist" organization. The Tamil cause was an ethnopolitical one... there were, to my knowledge, no atheist ideologies involved.

Perhaps you meant secular, which might possibly be slightly more accurate.


I said secular organisation. You quoted secular. I merely said they had atheists among them.

There has been one suicide attacker who cited something along the lines of "putting natural selection back on tracks" while identifying as an atheist, but that was one isolated incident. I don't know of any terrorist organisation that actually has atheist ideology as a part of its core goals.

However the same can be said of religious terrorism. The attacks are being carried put against nations which ate either oppressing Muslims or attacking Arab states. If it was about converting people to Islam where are the terrorists in Brazil, or Russia, or Peru, or Japan etc?


< Message edited by Staleek -- 1/15/2015 3:06:59 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:04:53 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

But as I previously stated, an ideology isn't just a body of ideas (such as is contained in the Koran or the Bible), it's about the people who hold those ideas. And those people always hold ideas other than those of either the Koran or the Bible (Das Kapital, or anything written by Hayek or Freeman, etc, etc, etc). It makes no sense to talk about 'the ideology' without referring to the people who (you) claim to hold that ideology, too.


No, again, that is your own construct

I hold the ideology to no one

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:06:57 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

But as I previously stated, an ideology isn't just a body of ideas (such as is contained in the Koran or the Bible), it's about the people who hold those ideas. And those people always hold ideas other than those of either the Koran or the Bible (Das Kapital, or anything written by Hayek or Freeman, etc, etc, etc). It makes no sense to talk about 'the ideology' without referring to the people who (you) claim to hold that ideology, too.


No, again, that is your own construct

I hold the ideology to no one


That is a senseless response, Sanity.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:18:47 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

But as I previously stated, an ideology isn't just a body of ideas (such as is contained in the Koran or the Bible), it's about the people who hold those ideas. And those people always hold ideas other than those of either the Koran or the Bible (Das Kapital, or anything written by Hayek or Freeman, etc, etc, etc). It makes no sense to talk about 'the ideology' without referring to the people who (you) claim to hold that ideology, too.


No, again, that is your own construct

I hold the ideology to no one


That is a senseless response, Sanity.


It is your assertion that makes no sense. I can only assume that you are projecting your own prejudices onto me

I fully understand that individuals will vary from one to another in what they think and what they believe, and what you do not understand or what you refuse to understand is that there is such a thing as the ideology itself as handed down through the ages, and that it is the ideology itself that is reprehensible, as well as the Islamists who embrace it - certainly not every individual Muslim on the planet



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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:20:24 PM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


I do not think that I have ever advocated "spray and pray," which IS the Islamic culture's method of firearm use. Inshallah is not my method of accomplishing things either. Which is another issue with Islamic culture and their soldiers (which is actually the reason behind "spray and pray"."


Interestingly the science disagrees with you. According to people who have actually studied this phenomena, rather than simply rely on ultra-nationalist news outlets such as Fox and the rest, religion is a negative predictor of terrorism in individuals. Indeed over the past two decades the biggest terrorist group has been a secular organization with a great deal of atheists as members. The Tamil Tigers, inventors of the belt bomb.

However, as they've never targeted wealthy white people living in the USA or Europe most people have never heard of them.



The fact that an organization is not based on religious ideologies does not automatically make it an "atheist" organization. The Tamil cause was an ethnopolitical one... there were, to my knowledge, no atheist ideologies involved.

Perhaps you meant secular, which might possibly be slightly more accurate.


I said secular organisation. You quoted secular. I merely said they had atheists among them.

There has been one suicide attacker who cited something along the lines of "putting natural selection back on tracks" while identifying as an atheist, but that was one isolated incident. I don't know of any terrorist organisation that actually has atheist ideology as a part of its core goals.

However the same can be said of religious terrorism. The attacks are being carried put against nations which ate either oppressing Muslims or attacking Arab states. If it was about converting people to Islam where are the terrorists in Brazil, or Russia, or Peru, or Japan etc?



My mistake... I read too quickly. Sorry.

I don't think it is about converting people to Islam. It is about punishing the infidels, Isn't it?


< Message edited by Bhruic -- 1/15/2015 3:22:00 PM >

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:20:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		He means the sentence makes no sense, you dolt.

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:25:36 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

He means the sentence makes no sense, you dolt.


When we need a knuckledragging troll to chime in we will give you a call

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RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:29:03 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		When you're ready to bring your sentence structure up to knuckle-dragging troll level, it will be a bright day for clarity.

If anyone wants to take a crack at how "I hold the ideology to no one" means anything, I'd love to see the gymnastics.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/15/2015 3:30:13 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:33:20 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

It is your assertion that makes no sense. I can only assume that you are projecting your own prejudices onto me

I fully understand that individuals will vary from one to another in what they think and what they believe, and what you do not understand or what you refuse to understand is that there is such a thing as the ideology itself as handed down through the ages, and that it is the ideology itself that is reprehensible, as well as the Islamists who embrace it - certainly not every individual Muslim on the planet


The title of your thread refers to 'Islam', not 'Islamists'. If you wanted to restrict this discussion to the beliefs of Islamists, rather than those of Muslims in general, you should have made that clear, Sanity.

But even if you do want to do that, you need to state what those beliefs of Islamists are, and with sources. These beliefs will, of course, include political and other views as well as those drawn from the Koran. Is your expertise up to this task, I'm wondering?

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Islam’s Problem With Blasphemy - 1/15/2015 3:34:07 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

When you're ready to bring your sentence structure up to knuckle-dragging troll level, it will be a bright day for clarity.

If anyone wants to take a crack at how "I hold the ideology to no one" means anything, I'd love to see the gymnastics.




Heres a clue for you, troll boy

My sentence structure? Though you struggle to keep up, generally addresses the topic. Yours, not so much.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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