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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 8:04:43 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

heres another small slice:

"freshman-to-senior changes in several characteristics have been occurring with considerable uniformity in most American colleges and universities," namely "...together with decreasingly conservative attitudes toward public issues..."

there is obviously a ton I left out, but what I quoted is the key point for the "argument" at hand.

http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1844/College-its-Effect-on-Students.html

Its so strange to argue with people who have to know something which is blatantly obvious, in this case that academia is skewed far to the left, and just to prove how stupid and obtuse they can be they try desperately to argue the exact opposite

But no one is arguing the exact opposite.

That's just your hard-wired left/right thinking at work.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 8:11:30 AM

GoddessManko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I'd like to know more about the rationale behind his community college proposal.

I think he wanted to model it after the CCC, also college is inaccessible for millions. I take free classes from MIT, Harvard and Cornell online if time allows. To be frank, the younger you are, the more affected you are by the recession (for the most part). I do know investors in California who lost everything, affluent individuals as well. They did what everyone else did and started from scratch again. With business it's always a hit or miss though. Working hard isn't enough. It takes tenacity and a bit of luck. I always tell people my customers are wonderful. Supply side of things is trickier which is why my MIT classes on the consumer base wasn't of high priority for me.

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 1/22/2015 8:30:59 AM >

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 8:51:56 AM

kdsub

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I believe the speech is outside of today’s reality and is only the Democratic party laying out its agenda for the next election.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 8:56:03 AM

mnottertail

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What else could it be? There is no reality on the part of nutsuckers. Obama proposed a tax cut. Nutsucker response, "Dead on arrival." I thought that was an endemic part of their dna. Turns out, they were for it, before they were against it.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 9:28:34 AM

cloudboy

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He has no idea what the rationale is, hence he pukes up shit all over the question.

A more skilled, better trained workforce might arguably make for higher wages and a more robust economy. Hence the money spent on the front end might be simply an investment in America. On the other hand, it could be money that does not produce a tangible return.

I'm sure the Bounty thoughtlessness was repeated at the very beginning of public schooling. If we take his POV, we should eliminate public schooling altogether for it simply subverts all notions of small government and libertarian freedoms.

One fact all parents and young adults would readily agree upon, Americans are being priced out of higher education. Combine that with uneven public education 1-12, and you have a real problem.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/22/2015 9:35:21 AM >

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 9:28:38 AM

bounty44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

What else could it be? There is no reality on the part of nutsuckers. Obama proposed a tax cut. Nutsucker response, "Dead on arrival." I thought that was an endemic part of their dna. Turns out, they were for it, before they were against it.

the majority of republicans in the house and senate are not Tea Party conservative types, so it's not the "nutsuckers" who are preventing your messiah from his agenda.

further, and I believe I said something similar to you before---yes, only for liberals does believing in smaller govt, lesser taxes, the free market and fiscal responsible makes someone worthy of a derogatory name.

yes, all of a sudden Obama believes in the conservative principle of lesser taxes....right....his tax cuts are predominantly in the form of tax credits, which come from costs to some other segment of society. its another form of wealth distribution/class envy/tax the rich.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 9:33:11 AM

cloudboy

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One interesting piece of information to fall out of the Community College proposal was that TOM HANKS went to one and it helped propel his career.

I know an anecdote does not a policy make, but his story was super cool, and I appreciate his advocacy for the benefits of higher education -- which not all of us see in Community College.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/22/2015 9:34:13 AM >

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/22/2015 9:41:36 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

What else could it be? There is no reality on the part of nutsuckers. Obama proposed a tax cut. Nutsucker response, "Dead on arrival." I thought that was an endemic part of their dna. Turns out, they were for it, before they were against it.

the majority of republicans in the house and senate are not Tea Party conservative types, so it's not the "nutsuckers" who are preventing your messiah from his agenda.

further, and I believe I said something similar to you before---yes, only for liberals does believing in smaller govt, lesser taxes, the free market and fiscal responsible makes someone worthy of a derogatory name.

yes, all of a sudden Obama believes in the conservative principle of lesser taxes....right....his tax cuts are predominantly in the form of tax credits, which come from costs to some other segment of society. its another form of wealth distribution/class envy/tax the rich.

But it is clear they don't. But you've said stupid shit all along. He believed in the conservative principle of lesser taxes for a long time. This isnt his first proposal. Now, we have proven repeatedly that the original wealth distribution was from the poor and middle class to the rich, and it continues today.

The corporate welfare subsidies have been borne on the backs of the middle class and poor since Reagan, and a great deal of externalities as well.

And it must be 'conservatives' and 'republicans' that are electing the nutsuckers, because they are in the house, and in the senate. But there are no conservatives or republicans in this land, there are those who like the nutsuckers perverted those principals as they hijacked their mantras and principles at least with their mouths but not in their dealings.

Your messiahs, the nutsuckers, haven't done one fucking thing except borrow and spend.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/22/2015 9:50:56 AM >

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/26/2015 3:49:51 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

rule 6 term limits!

I agree with you both but given the history of the political class...don't hold your breath it would be more than a small miracle.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/26/2015 8:20:21 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

heres another small slice:

"freshman-to-senior changes in several characteristics have been occurring with considerable uniformity in most American colleges and universities," namely "...together with decreasingly conservative attitudes toward public issues..."

there is obviously a ton I left out, but what I quoted is the key point for the "argument" at hand.

http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1844/College-its-Effect-on-Students.html

Its so strange to argue with people who have to know something which is blatantly obvious, in this case that academia is skewed far to the left, and just to prove how stupid and obtuse they can be they try desperately to argue the exact opposite

So basically you are complaining that smart,intelligent,educated folks tend to hold an ideology diametrically opposed to yours ?
And you figure it's them who are fucked up and wrong ?
Fucking putz

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 4:04:34 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I'd like to know more about the rationale behind his community college proposal.

It's a way to help make community college more affordable. It could be the stepping stone for kids to go on to universities/collegs, or it can help people train for a new career. It will only cover tuition, so other fees, books, etc. won't be covered.

The TN plan that Obama said it's based on has come under criticism because it's seen as benefiting the Middle Class or higher, rather than the most needy. The TN plan is a "last dollar" plan, so any grants, aid, etc. that a student is in line for come first, and the TN plan covers the rest of the tuition. The Middle Class or better might not qualify for the same sort of tuition assistance that the poor qualify for, so TN could be paying a larger share of the tuition of the less needy.

The Chicago plan that Obama has also pointed to, covers tuition, fees, and books for Chicago HS students who graduate with a 3.0 or better GPA. The Chicago plan covers students after Federal or State monies, too, like the TN plan.

While it's all well and good to help people attend college and increase their skills, I can't find anything concrete about how the money for this would be raised.

I've heard speculation that he's going to tax 529 plans, which were supposed to be tax-free ways to save for college, but I can't find anything solid to support that assertion. The assertion is that gains/growth in the 529 plan would be taxed when withdrawn, regardless of it's use, while today, it's tax-free if it's withdrawn to pay for education expenses. If that's true, it's taxing those who were responsible and saved for college to pay for those who chose not to save for college and/or those who could not save for college.

What I worry about, though, is that this give license to community colleges to jack up their tuition rates because government is paying the tab. That doesn't really lower the cost of an education. It raises it, but shifts it onto someone else's back.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 4:11:18 AM

bounty44

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"What I worry about, though, is that this give license to community colleges to jack up their tuition rates because government is paying the tab. That doesn't really lower the cost of an education. It raises it, but shifts it onto someone else's back."

that already goes on to a really high degree. tuition rates all over have far outpaced inflation, and colleges on the whole don't hire more teachers, they hire more administrators.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 4:21:46 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

While it's all well and good to help people attend college and increase their skills, I can't find anything concrete about how the money for this would be raised.

I've heard speculation that he's going to tax 529 plans, which were supposed to be tax-free ways to save for college, but I can't find anything solid to support that assertion. The assertion is that gains/growth in the 529 plan would be taxed when withdrawn, regardless of it's use, while today, it's tax-free if it's withdrawn to pay for education expenses. If that's true, it's taxing those who were responsible and saved for college to pay for those who chose not to save for college and/or those who could not save for college.

What I worry about, though, is that this give license to community colleges to jack up their tuition rates because government is paying the tab. That doesn't really lower the cost of an education. It raises it, but shifts it onto someone else's back.

So, if the speculation turns out to be true, it's just another example of the socialist/communist principle of redistribution of wealth.

You can bet your bottom dollar that community colleges will raise their tuitions, every year (as they have done, before).

The potential issue that sticks in my craw is the potential for academic abuse. Community Colleges are, certainly already public schools but with this plan would come less community control and more federal control. That's all well and good except how beholden to the NEA the federal government is.

The NEA is a piece of shit organization but the real crux of it for me is the danger of "social promotion" creeping into the higher institutions of learning. If Community Colleges become like the lower-level public schools and do indulge in social promotion, two year degrees could become almost worthless (they're close, now), in the job market.

This will CERTAINLY make four year degrees even more expensive than they already are because it's human nature (especially for PPL institutions of education)to get on the "Me too" bus.

At first blush, it's a lofty goal, but it is fraught with issues that I don't think have been thought-out (as per usual).

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/27/2015 4:37:35 AM >

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 9:00:32 AM

mnottertail

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There is no socialist/communist principle of the redistribution of wealth. Socialism is deeds based distribution of wealth, and Communism is needs based distribution.

Personally, redistribution of wealth is a good thing, since it was redistributed from us to them by the government and has been for some time. To put it back where it belongs, to its original, rightful owners, is a fine principle, though it is not a principle of Socialism or Communism.

Even after all this, there is still a great and ongoing redistribution of wealth from the citizens to the Red Welfare States.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/27/2015 9:07:12 AM >

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 9:07:44 AM

slvemike4u

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The wealth of this nation has been diverted to the rich for decades......a little redistribution is not only a good thing,it is an overdue thing.Republicans and their industrialist cronies be dammed.
The Koch brothers and their pals just got together to come up with a budget for the '16 election.The Number is a staggering 889 million dollar plan to further "conservative" issues ie: How to keep the money we have plundered
Fuck them and fuck all of their useful fellow idiots who are willing to see this as something being done in their name.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 9:13:30 AM

Lucylastic

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 9:22:00 AM

slvemike4u

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Yeah,Citizens United looks more like the Dred Scott decision every day .

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 9:45:22 AM

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Free community college? Not really! Here is a bit of one tax he intends to raise to pay for it. Nothing is free ever! He has decided to fuck over the people that are doing the right thing to pay for the god damn freeloaders.

A number of families have been taking advantage of what are called 529 plans, in order to save money for their children's college education. Under the current law, 529 plans work a lot like Roth IRAs: you put money in, the money grows tax-free for college and withdrawals and distributions are tax-free provided they are to pay for college. So that encourages people to save for their children's education.

Ah, but now this president wants to extend hope and change to this area. Under the Obama plan, earnings growth in a 529 plan would no longer be tax-free. Instead, earnings would face taxation upon withdrawal, even if the withdrawal is to pay for college.

So what we have is yet another instance of the government changing the rules once people have already committed their money to these plans… to rob the productive and thrifty who have sacrificed for their children's education in order to 'redistribute' this money to those who couldn't be bothered.

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 9:48:35 AM

slvemike4u

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We need to find and ostracize all of these damm freeloaders.
And quick,not a moment to waste

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RE: President Obama's State of the Union Speech - 1/27/2015 10:04:51 AM

Lucylastic

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ah yes, the 529s are held by an amazing majority of americans...oh no....hang on... 12 million

that leaves about (conservative estimate) a huge number of americans (93mill out of work) that just cant be bothered, and are freeloading cos everyone can afford college...parent or students..
but we will *just* accept they just cant be bothered

it seems to be a popular thing in tennessee
http://republic3-0.com/tennessee-promise-free-community-college-for-all-students/

oh but the future for the poor people who cant afford the tuition dont deserve it, right??

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