RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (Full Version)

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FieryOpal -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 7:21:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Is that not a form of self-sacrifice?

It's not. I spent 2 years of my life being nanny/surrogate mother to my two oldest nephews, from the womb until my sis became a stay at home mom. I let a relationship go (good decision, he's now my best friend) in order to do it. It was duty to family, not sacrifice. Sacrifice would be if I adopted orphans from a third world country and dedicated my life to raising them.

I have also been the foster mother to 3 children whose mother couldn't care for them while she awaited an organ transplant. There was never a question of what sacrifices or trade-offs our family made during that time.

Again, getting hung up on the term "sacrifice" as if it's a negative, as if there is no reward allowed in this process. You were rewarded by the love and appreciation of your nephews, I would imagine. Teaching others is a huge reward for many, and while professionally a teacher may be required to sacrifice lost income and time well-spent, teachers reap the rewards of the investment of their time and whatever personal sacrifices have to be made.

Just because an emotional investment didn't return the love dividends that it should have (ideally), does not diminish the value and worth of the sacrifices that were offered in the spirit of loving selflessness, whether of an intrinsic or extrinsic nature.

What I'm wondering here, is why such a spirit of acute denial on your part (and on the part of a few others)? Your statement contradicts itself.



GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 7:38:31 AM)

LOL, you nailed it Fiery, I contradicted myself. Thanks for that keen observation. By the way, the point of me posting that was not to compare notes on who's a more generous spirit. It was to reaffirm my point.



wickkeddesire -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 9:16:40 AM)

Love yes and no is my answer
The complexities and variables are too numerous; akin to asking how long a bit of string is – it is exactly the length that it is

Some examples
1. I love muffins and I must sacrifice my love of gorhing completely on those delicious morsels slobbers, less my tummy which would become super dense collapses the planet earth into a singularity – hmm or would I explode first showering everyone in muffin crumbs and remnants of slippers
2. I love my cats past ones and current ones, all equally. I have the capacity to love – well certainly cake and cats
3. Never loved a women – not my fault therefore my love is sacrifice as I live an angst filled life knee deep in cats
4. Love of course it is real – to claim it is chemical reaction is curious – but I know what you mean – how small would you like to go and who would you like to blame. Eg fundamentally we are but energy and 99.999999…….. empty space therefore eg feelin pain love does not exist hmm thats not correct but mathematically it is more hmms.
5. Would I wait for someone who lived across that pond or this pond
6. Would I love someone who was selfish and I hated to the core and did not present me daily dressed in corset and boots and present me with my daily muffin
7. Someone said cynicism – he/she does not understand the clarity of being and thought, we see things as they truly are; few people do. Ive heard that a lot and I find those who type that cynicism/bad thingies must have happened to you to exist in weird and wonderful alternate realities

Blind love a bity like blind faith is far more curious and dangerous and recalls all manners of sacrifice of one’s very being
Would you love someone who beats you with pots and pans and cheats on you and so on




crazyml -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 10:30:30 AM)

No one has denied that these emotions manifest themselves though chemical reactions, that would be silly. But nothing like as silly as to then draw the fallacious conclusion that they are a "lie".

In the vast majority of cases chemical reactions aren't random or spontaneous they are triggered by experience, values and a person's perception of the world and the people in it.




NookieNotes -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 12:37:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Again, getting hung up on the term "sacrifice" as if it's a negative, as if there is no reward allowed in this process.


I'm curious about this miscommunication, so I did some looking-up.

sac·ri·fice
ˈsakrəˌfīs/
noun

an act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to God or to a divine or supernatural figure.
synonyms: ritual slaughter, offering, oblation, immolation

an animal, person, or object offered in a sacrifice.
synonyms: (votive) offering, burnt offering, gift, oblation

an act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy.
"we must all be prepared to make sacrifices"
synonyms: surrender, giving up, abandonment, renunciation, forfeiture, relinquishment, resignation, abdication

So, it seems to me that we're using the last definition as our common ground for this conversation. And, I think it's critical to look at the synonyms for the full feel of the word. NONE of them offer any joy. And, I think that while you link sacrifice to the sacred, and therefore potential joy (int he archaic sense), the more common and modern usage suggests that most people raised with a similar language and cultrual base will not feel the same.



needlesandpins -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 1:34:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

No one has denied that these emotions manifest themselves though chemical reactions, that would be silly. But nothing like as silly as to then draw the fallacious conclusion that they are a "lie".

In the vast majority of cases chemical reactions aren't random or spontaneous they are triggered by experience, values and a person's perception of the world and the people in it.




you can fall in love with something that isn't real, or that actually doesn't even exist, all because of what you perceive, and want to believe. this triggers chemical reactions in the brain to release hormones. therefore, it is a lie.

we can mimic it all with injections, and pills. we don't even need another life form involved for it to happen. hell people have fallen in love with an online reality presence because of what they perceive is going on, and wrecked their home lives because of it. Hence, it's a trick of evolution, it's a lie to keep us reproducing, and nurturing. we've taking it a step further, and mixed it with pair bonding. it doesn't stop it being what it is.

needles



PeonForHer -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 1:37:24 PM)

FR

Is this a women only thread? I see some blokes have joined in, but I'm a bit shy about dipping my toe in a thread that looks as though it requires everyone to go into full-on 'Wuthering Heights' mode, in which people start talking majestically about being tortured, dying heroically ... and then tapping on their bedroom windows as ghosts, and stuff, for their Beloved.

Jeez. A woman has a good time with me - and better and better, as time goes on - or she leaves me. I don't want 'sacrifices' from her.

That is all.



sexyred1 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 1:52:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Is that not a form of self-sacrifice?

It's not. I spent 2 years of my life being nanny/surrogate mother to my two oldest nephews, from the womb until my sis became a stay at home mom. I let a relationship go (good decision, he's now my best friend) in order to do it. It was duty to family, not sacrifice. Sacrifice would be if I adopted orphans from a third world country and dedicated my life to raising them.

I have also been the foster mother to 3 children whose mother couldn't care for them while she awaited an organ transplant. There was never a question of what sacrifices or trade-offs our family made during that time.

Again, getting hung up on the term "sacrifice" as if it's a negative, as if there is no reward allowed in this process. You were rewarded by the love and appreciation of your nephews, I would imagine. Teaching others is a huge reward for many, and while professionally a teacher may be required to sacrifice lost income and time well-spent, teachers reap the rewards of the investment of their time and whatever personal sacrifices have to be made.

Just because an emotional investment didn't return the love dividends that it should have (ideally), does not diminish the value and worth of the sacrifices that were offered in the spirit of loving selflessness, whether of an intrinsic or extrinsic nature.

What I'm wondering here, is why such a spirit of acute denial on your part (and on the part of a few others)? Your statement contradicts itself.


I don't know about anyone else here who has replied, but in my case, I am only referring to romantic love, as it relates to sacrifice. I am not referring to parental, familial or platonic friend kind of love, only being "in love". All my comments are only related to romantic love and that is where the hormonal/chemical thing lies.



sexyred1 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 1:57:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes



quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Since I have mostly had good love experiences, I feel able to view this topic honestly.


I'm not sure why someone would have to have good love experiences to have a objective viewpoint. It seems like a star-bellied sneetch thing...




First off, orgasmdenial suggested that one may not have had good love experiences to understand her point and I was saying that I have had both, thus felt qualified to have an objective viewpoint.

Second, I have no idea what a star-bellied sneetch is and I could google it, but not that interested.



sexyred1 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 2:00:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Is this a women only thread? I see some blokes have joined in, but I'm a bit shy about dipping my toe in a thread that looks as though it requires everyone to go into full-on 'Wuthering Heights' mode, in which people start talking majestically about being tortured, dying heroically ... and then tapping on their bedroom windows as ghosts, and stuff, for their Beloved.

Jeez. A woman has a good time with me - and better and better, as time goes on - or she leaves me. I don't want 'sacrifices' from her.

That is all.



Not all of us are being dramatic. I think most of the women are being quite straightforward.

I also wish more men are weighing in on this topic, although it is being derailed somewhat.



LiveSpark -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 2:06:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Is this a women only thread? I see some blokes have joined in, but I'm a bit shy about dipping my toe in a thread that looks as though it requires everyone to go into full-on 'Wuthering Heights' mode, in which people start talking majestically about being tortured, dying heroically ... and then tapping on their bedroom windows as ghosts, and stuff, for their Beloved.

Jeez. A woman has a good time with me - and better and better, as time goes on - or she leaves me. I don't want 'sacrifices' from her.

That is all.



Of course you can join in. I don't know where you see overly dramatic posts though admittedly there has been a derail.



FieryOpal -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 3:48:53 PM)

@sexyred1, I fully understand you were referring to 'romantic love,' as was needles, and appreciate what you both (and others) have shared from your hearts.

@NookieNotes, in mundane vernacular, "sacrifice" has a dry meaning devoid of the concept of joy. However, when you look up the definition of "submission," it doesn't cover the joyful emotions of giving, offering one's submission (as a gift, or oblation: 1. The act of offering something, such as worship or thanks) out of loyalty, dedication, devotion and/or love either, nor the joy to the Dominant to exchange her/his dominance for this joyfully willing offering of submission.

Question: "What does it mean to give a sacrifice of praise (Hebrews 13:15)?"

Answer: Hebrews 13:15 says, "'Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that openly profess his name." The terms "sacrifice" and "praise" might seem to be opposites. We think of sacrifice as offering something at great cost to ourselves. Praise, on the other hand, sounds joyful as it bubbles from a grateful heart. However, in the spiritual realm, sacrifice and praise are intertwined.

'Praise does not always cost us something.'...

http://www.gotquestions.org/sacrifice-of-praise.html

See also Malachi 3:10 re Tithing (giving 1/10th so that God can sanctify the remaining 9/10ths one keeps):
{This is one of the most, if not THE most notably rare occasion where the Lord encourages or challenges us to test him; elsewhere in the Scriptures, we are instructed not to tempt the Lord, our God.}

"And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

@PeonForHer, rounded this up just for you, from a male perspective:

What it Means to be a Man

During my Basic Training, I heard an amazing definition of what it means to be a man. It was actually during the final speech to my Unit on promotion night. Captain Keon (key-un) Pendergast, one of the most tremendous examples of true manhood that I have yet to meet, defined true masculinity as “the joyful assumption of sacrificial responsibility.”

~Assumption~ [as opposed to Acceptance]
| Application:
A man needs to care enough about his family and whoever else may be in his charge to look around, and look ahead for anything that may be hindering the productivity of the system. He doesn’t wait for things to plummet, or for someone else to do it; he exercises foresight and wisdom to see what needs to be done, and he does it. A true man will not shirk responsibility, nor waver when demands increase.

~Sacrificial~
| Definition:
True sacrifice is more than merely “giving something up.” True sacrifice is giving of yourself for the good of someone else, without thought of personal gain; whether gain is defined as honor and accolades, or material compensation. True sacrifice is completely devoid of pride.

http://joshyeddy.blogspot.com/

[Edited for missing word, punctuation]



PeonForHer -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 6:32:13 PM)

FR

I shouldn't have been so flippant. :-) It's an interesting discussion and I'm enjoying it. I just can't rustle up anything to add to it at present.



LiveSpark -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 6:41:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I shouldn't have been so flippant. :-) It's an interesting discussion and I'm enjoying it. I just can't rustle up anything to add to it at present.


no harm no foul peon, I look forward to reading your thoughts.



FieryOpal -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 10:20:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Jeez. A woman has a good time with me - and better and better, as time goes on - or she leaves me. I don't want 'sacrifices' from her.

That you don't require them is to your credit. But how do you feel about going out of your way or above and beyond for her? Driving an hour or so each way to/from London -- Is this not a sacrifice you would be willing to make? Would it be less of a sacrifice that you would do this out of anticipation and excitement to see your Lady Love with bated breath; that while driving back home, you feel warm & fuzzy all over, relive and savor each moment in your mind? With bittersweet longing for your next visit, making plans for the two of you, perhaps.

Sacrifice doesn't have to be a solemn event entered into reluctantly. It is just a means to an end, one of many assorted choices, trade-offs, and compromises to consider making or not making. The choice is always yours.

Nor is sacrifice the exclusive domain of the submissive partner as a one-sided deal where the Dominant always stands to gain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

...full-on 'Wuthering Heights' mode,

This and Jane Eyre are classics, yanno. Them Brontë Sisters be my girls... [sm=kiss.gif] (back when I used to read novels as a girl).



BecomingV -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 10:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: usememistress775

I can't think of a single type of love that doesn't involve sacrifice or the willingness to sacrifice. The very idea of love to me is a willingness to do for someone else even at a detriment to myself.


This is a common mythology based on patriarchal religious assertions.
The theme is that if we (the sacrificed) play by the rules (set by those with experience in power) then we, too, will be exalted. Which is total BS. But, mythologies persist despite any root in reality because they serve a purpose.

In an organized, patriarchal religion or society, that purpose is to fool the masses to "sacrifice" their individual will, time and lives in ways which benefit the power structure itself.

I recognize the sentiments of usememistress as being a derivative and romanticized version of that mythology.

quote:

Without a sacrifice, love is just a paper title but with sacrifice love is the rod and crown.


And, here's ^^^ the ego in it all. The exalted martyr. The best of all of us, at loving. LOL


quote:

quote:

love
ləv/
noun
noun: love; plural noun: loves

1. an intense feeling of deep affection.
2. a person or thing that one loves.


Why would you want to make it more than that? Isn't a feeling of deep affection enough for you? Does it HAVE to come with sacrifice to be worthwhile? That seems to add negative connotations to something that is otherwise an incredibly positive thing.

From a patriarchal religious perspective, sacrifice is the path to the highest honors. Think, "Jesus Christ, Superstar"! The patriarchal religions share a tradition of indoctrination during childhood, before critical thinking is developed and before there can be sufficient exposure to a broader view. So, the result is a lot of adults who live in that state of inertia, never seriously questioning the spoon-fed belief system which equates their highest purpose with sacrifice of themselves. In their minds, that IS positive. Exaltation!



GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/1/2015 11:34:54 PM)

I'm up doing coding for this site and decided to give this thread a gander and I can't help but shudder, LOL. Honestly some of us might just want to fuck at this point in our lives and that's OK. It's not about those passionate Jane Eyre, Little Women, or thespian passions. It's about a hot sexual experience. Sometimes a lovey sort of friendship develops but I don't think there's any right or wrong way to do things. I'm FRIENDLY with my ex playmates more than anything, none of us are quoting odes to each other though I think it's positively lovely and romantic some subs do that and I might put that into practice in the future. There is no infatuation there, just a "I had a great time with you, a shame it'll never happen again but let's play catch up."
What one man might think is sacrifice, I might have had 100 times more done for or offered to me (which I probably turned down if it wasn't on my terms). It is really sad when someone thinks "I sacrificed my shoelaces to tie up my balls" is supposed to impress me. I'm just not that easily "wowed".
Personally Anne of Green Gables was my favorite of the classics. [8|]



needlesandpins -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/2/2015 2:20:57 AM)

lol I think the classics are wonderful, and I even write poetry myself. the following is about as gooy as it got for my ex playmate.

Wanton Time

This thing we have is raw,
It’s taken from the base,
With want and need we crave,
The sweet and bitter taste.

Time and distance ever present,
The tension builds between us,
Words are spoken, bodies toyed,
But still there’s no appeasement.

Days pass by so slowly,
The time is finally spent,
A meeting of our bodies,
Till both of us are rent.

We linger in the lull,
And fingertips brush lightly,
The lust is ever growing,
As we hold each other tightly.

Whispered word and soft caress,
Lift the skin to tingle,
Counting down the hours,
Till once again we’re single.

A parting of the ways,
We go back to the same,
Ticking off the days,
Till once we meet again.

needles



NookieNotes -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/2/2015 2:45:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Is this a women only thread?


Nope.

quote:

Jeez. A woman has a good time with me - and better and better, as time goes on - or she leaves me. I don't want 'sacrifices' from her.

That is all.


Agreed. That's what I want from my relationships.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes



quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Since I have mostly had good love experiences, I feel able to view this topic honestly.


I'm not sure why someone would have to have good love experiences to have a objective viewpoint. It seems like a star-bellied sneetch thing...




First off, orgasmdenial suggested that one may not have had good love experiences to understand her point and I was saying that I have had both, thus felt qualified to have an objective viewpoint.

Second, I have no idea what a star-bellied sneetch is and I could google it, but not that interested.


Oh, I know why YOU included it. I'm saying that overall, as a conversational point, it holds no logical foundation.

The Sneetches

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

@NookieNotes, in mundane vernacular, "sacrifice" has a dry meaning devoid of the concept of joy. However, when you look up the definition of "submission," it doesn't cover the joyful emotions of giving, offering one's submission (as a gift, or oblation: 1. The act of offering something, such as worship or thanks) out of loyalty, dedication, devotion and/or love either, nor the joy to the Dominant to exchange her/his dominance for this joyfully willing offering of submission.


I understand. And I am not denying your point, simply saying that it seems that here, while submission's additional correlations have been accepted widely by the community participating on the forums, a joyvul sacrifice as a cancept has not.

Which is why it is seen as negative.

No more, no less. *smiles*


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

What it Means to be a Man

During my Basic Training, I heard an amazing definition of what it means to be a man. It was actually during the final speech to my Unit on promotion night. Captain Keon (key-un) Pendergast, one of the most tremendous examples of true manhood that I have yet to meet, defined true masculinity as “the joyful assumption of sacrificial responsibility.”

~Assumption~ [as opposed to Acceptance]
| Application:
A man needs to care enough about his family and whoever else may be in his charge to look around, and look ahead for anything that may be hindering the productivity of the system. He doesn’t wait for things to plummet, or for someone else to do it; he exercises foresight and wisdom to see what needs to be done, and he does it. A true man will not shirk responsibility, nor waver when demands increase.

~Sacrificial~
| Definition:
True sacrifice is more than merely “giving something up.” True sacrifice is giving of yourself for the good of someone else, without thought of personal gain; whether gain is defined as honor and accolades, or material compensation. True sacrifice is completely devoid of pride.

http://joshyeddy.blogspot.com/

[Edited for missing word, punctuation]


I love this viewpoint. I still look at it as using the word sacrifice in a way that is not consistent with common usage, and will therefore not be comprehended by the majority of people without an included defining of the word.

For me, it just doesn't fit.

I give of myself for others quite a bit. I just don't see it as sacrifice. That word has more weight, in my world. And, negativity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
quote:

Without a sacrifice, love is just a paper title but with sacrifice love is the rod and crown.


And, here's ^^^ the ego in it all. The exalted martyr. The best of all of us, at loving. LOL


Mmmm. Yup.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
quote:

quote:

love
ləv/
noun
noun: love; plural noun: loves

1. an intense feeling of deep affection.
2. a person or thing that one loves.


Why would you want to make it more than that? Isn't a feeling of deep affection enough for you? Does it HAVE to come with sacrifice to be worthwhile? That seems to add negative connotations to something that is otherwise an incredibly positive thing.

From a patriarchal religious perspective, sacrifice is the path to the highest honors. Think, "Jesus Christ, Superstar"! The patriarchal religions share a tradition of indoctrination during childhood, before critical thinking is developed and before there can be sufficient exposure to a broader view. So, the result is a lot of adults who live in that state of inertia, never seriously questioning the spoon-fed belief system which equates their highest purpose with sacrifice of themselves. In their minds, that IS positive. Exaltation!


Yes, I agree with that. Good point. *smiles*

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

What one man might think is sacrifice, I might have had 100 times more done for or offered to me (which I probably turned down if it wasn't on my terms). It is really sad when someone thinks "I sacrificed my shoelaces to tie up my balls" is supposed to impress me. I'm just not that easily "wowed".


*gigglesnorts*



FieryOpal -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (2/2/2015 6:09:34 AM)

@needles, I didn't find your poem 'gooey' at all. It speaks of passion, lustful desire, and infatuation.

There's more meaning to it than merely some people looking to fuck, having casual sex with fuckbuddies and/or one-night stands.
(Or those who go around acting as if they do)

To no one in particular, what if the topic instead was "Does Lust Require Sacrifice?" or "Does Passion (or Passionate Desire) Require Sacrifice?"
Would anybody's responses be different or stay the same?
In other words, at what cost "Lust"? At what cost "Passion" or "Passionate Desire"? At what cost "Love" (whether Passionate Love or not)?
Would you (plural) go to the ends of the earth out of Lust? Passion? or Love?
In more practical terms, would you relocate to be with the one you love? What would you be willing to sacrifice for love?

I have heard many say they are unwilling to make any compromises if they found an otherwise ideal partner.
I have been guilty of adopting this same hard-line position before, of getting hung up on the word "compromise," as if it entailed making a "sacrifice" I would be unwilling to make.
Of course, this is contingent on what kind of "compromise" would be involved.
I have heard others say that once they found (or have already found) their ideal partner, nothing would feel like they had to compromise in order to be with the one they love, so gladdened are their hearts, spirit and soul.

@Nookie, I do believe I know where you (and Peon, from the other side) are coming from. I don't disagree with your right to feel the way you do, and I don't think it comes from a place of selfish disregard, egotism, or anything like that.

On a personal note, I have found my ideal mate, and I have lost him. I did not take care of him to his dying breath out of duty to my family only, as if it were obligatory. The sacrifices I have made to be caregiver to my elderly mother until she passed, and to my late husband, were not obligatory. They were made out of love and devotion.



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